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have a few ques(25 posts)

have a few questriman
Apr 10, 2002 7:24 AM
Im getting ready for another tri season and i plan to train a lot this year. im starting to get really serious. i did a few tris last year so now i know a bit more but i still have ques. i just bought a 2002 cannondale r700, super nice i love it. what is a good aero bar? i have an older profile century aero bar and hated it. im looking for something thats not too expensive. ill probably just use it during races, ive never like riding aero when just out on a ride. also ive been thinking about shaving my legs, what do you guys think about shaving. i plan to ride a lot more this year and i also mtn bike a lot too so i figure im going to wreck sometime. if you guys shave do you shave all year or just during the summer. im still in high school so people will probably say stuff to me but im not worried about that .i dont think my parents would care, so im not worried about stuff like that. during the school year i run xc in the fall, swim in the winter and then ride a lot in the spring and do all 3 in the summer. so it would make sense for me to shave year round. i just wanted to hear what people say, what you all do, thanks.
Have a few answersbrider
Apr 10, 2002 10:41 AM
First -- on the aero-clip-ons, I use the Profile Split Seconds. Things to consider -- it looks as though you're adding these to a standard road set-up, so you're going to want something that's fairly adjustable, and you may need to modify them to get them short enough (but this will most likely void any warranties). Some come with flip-up arm rests -- totally personal taste on these (I don't care for them myself). I would recommend doing some TT simulations with the clip-ons prior to race day, and especially "bricks".

Second -- Shaving. When I was racing, I shaved, and did it year 'round. Used both electric and razor. Razor gave better shave, but electric was more convenient. When going with a blade, shave "along the grain", as going against (up the legs for most people) will lift the hair folicle, and the blade will nick the skin surrounding the hair (potential infection, ugly and itchy at best).
re: have a few quesSteveO
Apr 11, 2002 4:40 AM
i agree with brider; since your riding standard geometry, get short aeros or something which is fully-adjustable (forward/rearward adjustable).

As far as shaving... Ive been racing tri's and open-water swims for about 5 years; i havent shaved yet. Im not competitive enough in the water, so shaving would buy me nothing there (my personal opinion, in open-water events there's a de minimus of benefit even at the elite level.

As far as shaving for the bike; the only benefit is 'should' you go down, its an easier mess to clean up. I've been riding for 15 years and havent gone done yet. I'm not so foolish as to think that i wont, but i'd have been shaving for 15 years for nothing.

My (opinionated) summary:
Shaving benefits : you look and feel sleek
Shaving drawbacks: lot of hassel for no real gain.

Personal call...only you can answer it.
Agree, dont shavesurf
Apr 11, 2002 7:08 AM
It's all for the look or the feel. Just keep the hair on until you go pro, it's all natural right. Also, (most) ladies DON'T like shaved legs, but a bunch of guys here will tell you they do. Hey you gota factor in the ladies.
Ever tried a massage?brider
Apr 11, 2002 9:03 AM
The shaved legs are a BIG plus when getting a leg massage. Just try it ONCE without the hair and you'll be a convert for life.

As to the ladies' preference, yes, they DO prefer the shaved legs. They just don't like the stubble (which is more stiff on a man's legs for the most part).
the ladies...SteveO
Apr 11, 2002 9:58 AM
to each his (err, her) own.

Most women i know dislike shaved legs on men.
the ladies...surf
Apr 11, 2002 10:10 AM
This is true

They generally think it's feminine. Hey, Im married and have sisters.
Keep the heir on until you go pro, then I guess, it's time to go smooth
re: have a few queshaydensimons
Apr 11, 2002 6:06 AM
I use profile airstryke 2000 aerobars. You can get them from nashbar for I believe 80 bucks. They have the flip up armrests that are spring loaded so that you can use a lot more of the bar for climbs, etc. I'm liking mine a lot.

Shaving...I do it. No, I don't guess I'm really a competitive triathlete. I usually just set goals for each tri I do and don't go out just to win my age group. What shaving does for me is make me feel faster. you feel the wind move over you better. If you feel faster, you'll push harder. In other words, its mental for me. It may actually save me...oh, 1/2 a second, but because I push harder and feel faster it probably saves me over a minute. Just my .02.
Answerliu02bhs
Apr 11, 2002 7:31 AM
A Century aerobar should do you fine. I have a Airstryke 2000, but I pull it back about the same length as the Century.
Dude, DO NOT shave. It is so gay, especially if you are in high school. I'm on the swim team, and we still make fun of guys who shave their leg.
I really don't think you should of gotten a Cannondale road bike. Those are not aero at all. The fat downtube probably adds like 30 seconds for a triathlon.

In summary, be cool don't shave.
???SteveO
Apr 11, 2002 8:11 AM
There's no basis for that 30 seconds. In fact, theres a fair amount of test data which indicates 'aero' frames arent as 'aero' as you think once a rider is atop. Especially in Sprint, which is where he appears to be right now.

Karen Smyers, Wendy Ingrahm, and Mike Pigg seem to do OK on standard geometry... so do does about half the field at kona.

Roadbike is fine if it works for you
Comparing the pro's geometry isn't all that instructivebrider
Apr 11, 2002 8:59 AM
The pros that do ITU races are now using mostly standard geometry because they're mostly draft-legal races. Now, if they cross over to an IM distance race, guess what, they switch back to the aero set-up! There's really no comparisson of what the pros are using and age groupers (who aren't draft-legal). Now that has nothing to do with wind tunnel data, which I can't argue with at all.
the pros i mentioned use standard during 'proper' triathlonSteveO
Apr 11, 2002 9:57 AM
(oops, i mean 'draft-illegal). The Kona finishers are also obviously draft-illegal.

otherwise, i'd agree with you... I was just trying to show that there's no 'best' configuration for racing.
You don't know what you are talking aboutliu02bhs
Apr 12, 2002 7:05 AM
Standard geometry has nothing to do with aerodynamics. Frame geometry are the angle at which they weld the tubes together. Most road bike have a 73.5 degree seat tube angle, while a triathlon geometry has a 78 degree seat tube angle.
Cannondale has a fat round down tube which creats a lot of drag. While an aero-bike has a thin and flat tubes (tear-drop shaped).
Standard bike accounts for 30% of the drag. An aero bike can reduce that amount. This is why Lance Armstrong rides a different TT specific bike, not his regular 5900.
sure i do.SteveO
Apr 12, 2002 8:19 AM
geometry has EVERYTHING to do with aerodynamics; the human body accounts for more wind drag than any bicycle frame ever could. a TT frame makes it easier for most riders to reduce that wind drag.

Lance Armstrong doesnt use the TT specific bike solely because the frame is more aerodynamic, it places his body into a more aero posture, which is MORE important.

Point your finger somewhere else.
fyiRideLots
Apr 12, 2002 8:37 AM
http://www.cervelo.com/qa/article5.html

http://www.cervelo.com/qa/cervelo-calc.html
thankyou...SteveO
Apr 12, 2002 8:41 AM
"Although much attention is focused on the aerodynamics of equipment, the most important aerodynamic consideration for a bike and rider combination is the rider."

sounds like geometry is pretty important.

(interesting information from an aero-bicycle manufacturer, btw).
You do?liu02bhs
Apr 12, 2002 3:29 PM
I agree that riders position makes a difference. But geometry of the bike has very little to do with the positioning. Lance's TT bike has similar geometry to his 5900. The main difference is in the higher seat tube/post which enable a flatter body positioning, thus more aerodynamic.
The reason for a 78 degree seat tube on a triathlon bike is to utilize the leg muscle for the bike and run. A road bike has a more relaxed position because riders need to utilize their climbing muscles. The road geometry also creates better handling.
apparently more than you...SteveO
Apr 15, 2002 4:00 AM
Geometry has a LOT to do with positioning, in order to get a flatter back you need to either:

1. decrease the angle of your hips (which affects comfort, and more importantly, proper breathing for most people) OR

2. maintain the hip angle, and rotate the entire body forward and downward. This is accomplished with a shorter headtube and steeper seat-angle (aka tt or tri geometry).

The affect on leg muscles is only secondary to the positioning....why do you think time-trialists and track riders ride a similar geometry to triathletes? According you your logic, theyre saving their legs for a brisk run after their race?

Please realize, I'm not trying to convince you of anything, apparently you've already convinced yourself that you know more than you actually do; I just want to make sure that any newbies who are actually receptive to learning get proper info.

Peace out,

Steve.
really??liu02bhs
Apr 15, 2002 6:21 PM
dude, you need to like check the geometry of the TT bikes vs. the Tri bikes.
like, okSteveO
Apr 16, 2002 3:35 AM
folks need to chill....sctri
Apr 16, 2002 7:08 PM
Your both right....
One of the primary goals of any aero bike or position is to flatten the back and get the body into a more aero position. This is because as far as resistance encountered, most of it is as a result of the body, more than frame, fork or wheels.

As for geometry.... YOU ARE BOTH RIGHT.... the TT bikes have the steaper angle as they are more efficent ON THE FLATS using more of the quads. The same applies to track to a degree. Triathletes have found that his also leaves legs fresh for the run. HOWEVER! on really hill courses, such as IM canada, you will see many pros on traditional road geo bikes, as that position works for that application.

SO good work, I won't pretend to know it all, because no one does, we should just chill there and maybe read what the other person wrote as there may, just may be some merit to it...

rc
chillin...SteveO
Apr 17, 2002 3:40 AM
As a point of clarification, i realize liu has some valid points in his arguments. If you read my posts carefully, you'll notice i've never disagreed, but merely supported my own argument (that geometry is a critical factor in aerodynamics).

I COMPLETELY agree that no one person knows it all, and my persistance was rooted in the frustration of dealing with those who believe they do.... I firmly believe those seeking information about a topic should be presented with ALL available knowledge; not a single piece or perception which alone could be misleading to the uninitiated (or, apparently in some cases, even the more 'experienced').

Anyway, thanks for the voice of reason;

Steve

ps rc, completely agree about the traditional geo in hilly or crit format; my INITIAL point was merely to point out successful athletes who use traditional geometry in TT format tri's, because it works for them. Everyone's difft, so we shouldnt criticize someones selection of bicycle (like a cannondale roadbike) without any knowledge of that person or his environment (or at all, for that matter).

peace.
Cannondaleliu02bhs
Apr 17, 2002 6:58 AM
Maybe you haven't seem the Cannondale road bikes. They have FAT as in HUGE downtubes. That's why I pointed out, it's not a good bike if you want good aerodynamics.
SteveO
Apr 17, 2002 7:46 AM
true enough, initially, i thought you were criticizing his choice because it was a 'road bike'. I later re-read, and realized you were focusing on the 'cannondale road' bike (and therefore, the downtube). At that point, you'd already ticked me off, so i stuck with my assertion on principle.

haha,
peace dude,
steve
re: have a few quesskibert
Apr 13, 2002 8:20 AM
I have shaved my legs (during training and racing season)since i started biking/tri in high school, and I havent had any problems w/ it, My gf likes and my friends get used to it or just dont care. On my college tri team of about 60-70 guys about 80% of us shave and all of us who do more than one or two a year do. So if you want to do it go ahead it might save your legs in a crash like it did for my friend, the doctor said that the only reason he had even a little bit of skin left was that there was no hair to grab on the pavement so he slid across it better. As far as the bars, i use sytance c2 and i love them.