|How would Armstrong and USPS do as Sprinters?||Fez|
Aug 12, 2003 7:39 AM
|Armstrong is a great climber and time trialist. But how would he do as a sprinter?
How would he and USPS do if they wanted him to win the green jersey?
Could Armstrong take on the likes of Petacchi, McEwen and other strong sprinters? Could USPS give a good lead out like the other teams?
In the past, has anyone taken both the green and yellow jerseys?
|Armstrong would have as much success...||Dwayne Barry|
Aug 12, 2003 7:59 AM
|against the sprinters, even with a perfect leadout, as the sprinters have against him on a mountain top finish.
As for his sprint it's been un-remarkable since his comeback from cancer. He only does well if it's uphill at the end of a mountain otherwise he tends to get out-classed.
But he races so little, and many times doesn't even contest a sprint when in a small group, it's hard to say for sure if has a good sprint or not.
Merckx won all three jerseys (in '69 I think). I think Jimenez won both the points and mountains at the Vuelta a few years ago. Piccoli has won both the points and mountains at the Giro but not in the same year. I'm not sure if there are any other GT multiple jersey winners currently riding.
|Laurent Jalabert also won...||Indurain 03|
Aug 12, 2003 5:59 PM
|Jaja won both the overall and points jersey in the 95 Vuelta a Espana.|
|Eddy And Hinault||atpjunkie|
Aug 12, 2003 9:39 PM
|won both. Yes eddy did all 3 (69 is correct) and did Green and yellow twice. Both he and the badger actually won sprints, Jaja used to be quite a sprinter but before retiring gained most his points on long breaks. LA and USPS lack the muscle and the nerve to be a great sprint team it's a whole different animal.|
|He sucks, even Pantani blew him away in a sprint.||Spoiler|
Aug 13, 2003 3:47 PM
Aug 13, 2003 9:40 PM
Aug 14, 2003 8:31 AM
|"LA and USPS lack the muscle and the nerve to be a great sprint team it's a whole different animal."
"He sucks, even Pantani blew him away in a sprint."
You guys really crack me up!! LA and the USPS are out to win the war not a small battle. Why would LA want to contest 3 seconds in a sprint and lose 10 minutes in a mountain stage the next day ( and jeopradise the yellow jersey)? Why contest the green jersey when you can have the yellow?
Pantani is also a great man, but blow LA away any time he wants ( as you suggest), you and I both know you are full of sh*t.
Also, LA is not out to conquer and humilliate every other racer. If you have ever raced you would know there are a lot of deals made out on the road for each racer to achieve a goal. LA ( and others)gladly give up a little money and bonuses to win a war. We have all seen it.
A good laugh though.
Aug 14, 2003 10:47 AM
Aug 14, 2003 5:46 PM
|you clearly missed my point. regardless of gaining seconds USPS is not nor could not be a sprint team. Compare a photo of them to a photo of Domina Vacanze and compare the quads. USPS are a GC team and lack sprint 'muscle'. You must not know me very well if you didn't see the point. I'm all to aware of the 'risks' involved in sprints, I lead out or run 2 man in sprints. (once i a while I actually get to sprint). So the physiology and psychology of sprint teams is "a completely different animal' than a GC team. It's why even in 1 day clasics you don't see the 'big blue train' of USPS leading Honch LA to victory. As Cippo and Petacchi can't climb LA doesn't sprint. It's all about Wattage/Power and turnover which is something a climber avoids in training as excess short twitch muscle in the legs weighs and slows you down in the mountains but gives you the burst in the sprints. As climbing monkeys weigh 130 or so GCers who must have sufficient power for TT's are 140-155 and sprinters (McEwan excepted) usually are the 'big boys' of the peloton.|
Aug 14, 2003 6:11 PM
|it's what makes Zabels 6 greens so amazing. he did it with a team not dedicated to the sprint. DT was built around Jan w/ Gian Matteo Fanini (I have to mis-spell as the content cops won't allow actual spelling as it contains an offensive word within it) SHHEEEESH! as Zabel's only true sprint help. So EZ won all those points jerseys without a leadout 'train' a la Super Mario.|
Aug 15, 2003 9:31 AM
|No, I got your point, you said "LA and USPS lack the muscle and the nerve to be a great sprint team it's a whole different animal". Yes, it is a different animal, and, there are more than 9 guys in USPS. They just put together the best team they could to contest the Yellow. If they wanted to contest the Green and not the Yellow, they would have to put together a different combination. But who in hell would want to do that? And what kind of nerve are you referring to!!! You just can't let the whole thing go and give a great racer his victory!
Aug 15, 2003 12:56 PM
|not slagging LA at all. Check my previous posts, I'm not a super fan but admire him and his accomplishments. Have defended him and USPS numerous times. So this is what I refer to as 'nerve'. We do a Mid week Sprint work out, fixed gear ratios, usually 53-17, 4 mile circuit low traffic. Group starts at easy pace and in 4 designated spots around loop there are Sprint finishes followed by recovery. the second sprint takes place through a narrow road with a left turn that also is rough surface with some potholes. The guy I'm leading out tells me he really wants this one so as we go in before the turn in two pace lines. We are in the outside group and I'm one back from the front, the guy in front of me isn't budging and I know when we hit the turn the inside group will swing wide toward us. Going to the outside is not an option as the is no road or shoulder. The road in this section is barely wide enough for 3 riders across so right before the turn I jam myself with sprinter in tow between the 2 groups. we're doing about 30 at almost elbow to elbow, the inside group is now forced from swinging wide, I snap through and launch my guy with about 40 meters from the line. he took it easy and I actually as leadout crossed second. During the recovery the more GC style riders and climbers were admonishing us for such a move with the conditions (potholes, narrow road) and saying "it's only a practice race" while the sprinters were patting us on the back for such a 'cheeky move'. As sprinters, this is good 'practice' as it simulates the 'Hargy Bargy' of a bunch sprint and requires nerves of steel and blood cold as ice. So no slag to GC riders of any ilk especially LA but there is just a different mind set to sprinters, neither is better, just different. admitted both take nerve, it takes nerve to launch an attack on Luz Ardidien but involve yourself in a bunch sprint and you'll see my point.|
Aug 15, 2003 4:08 PM
|Again I got your point, and I am a racer too ( a poor one at that). You think LA "doesn't have nerve and muscle" because his racing philosophy doesn't match yours. A lot of people might classify your type of amusement as stupid ( taking such chances for amusement glory) but we don't slam you or the Green jersey contenders for it. Go ahead and have some fun. LA just wants to stay out of their way and not risk millions of dollars and the Yellow.
And " neither is better"! I won't even comment on that..
Aug 17, 2003 6:38 PM
|you actually miss the point. LA lacks the 'physiology' to sprint. his body isn't built for it just as Cippo will never win on a mountain top as his body wasn't 'born' to climb. It has nothing to do with his racing philosophy. Take it out of cycling, would a Carl Lewis win a marathon? Would a gracile Ethiopian distance runner win a 100 meter dash. Different bodies are good for different things. Maybe in his pre cancer state he could have trained to be a sprinter, but even when he took the Worlds it was on a small group break. In all his Classics near misses ( Amstel Gold 2 x) he was again in a small break and was outsprinted twice ( once by Boogerd and once by Dekker) (neither who'd stand a chance in a bunch sprint). So LA stays away yes to not risk the yellow (a smart move) but in all the 1 day classics if he was a sprinter he wouldn't waste time and his team on such breaks. They'd just save it for the end but 'physiologically' he isn't a sprinter capiche?
yes people would consider it 'stupid' ,most would, but sprinters see it as business as usual, that is the difference in mentality. Sprinters are like freaking fighter pilots, did you see the last stage. McEwan and Cooke leaning and elbowing at 40 mph?
So LA's philosophy has nothing to do with it. It varies as it serves the purpose his body is designed and trained for. As I've stated I like the guy, have nothing against him. Neither is better is a statement that some bodies will never be GC as some will never be climbers as some will never sprint. Coaches and trainers build a rider around their physiology. The only rider to ever 'convert' was JaJa as hye went from one discipline (Sprinting) to another (Climbing). Merckx and Hinault were the only GCers to ever win the Green but things weren't as specialized then as now. So please, re read and find where I 'slam' LA. I don't, I just state that his body is good at winning GC (climbs and TT's), but his body, not his philosophy is what lead to that. Maybe when you've raced a little longer you'll find your niche, this is what cycling is about. But if you are lean and still over 165 lbs no matter what you do or how much you spend with Chris Carmichael you will never be K.O.M.
But if you think that LA could win a bunch sprint ala Zabel, McEwan, Cippo or Petachii you are sadly misguided. That kind of thinking is Naive homerism.