RoadBikeReview.com's Forum Archives - Tour-Giro-Vuelta
Lance confermed my post, Tyler not Jan slowing the pace.(41 posts)
|Lance confermed my post, Tyler not Jan slowing the pace.||Canidraftyou|
Jul 31, 2003 6:22 PM
|Lance on OLN tonight stated, he (Lance) did not see Jan slow up at all. Until Tyler charged to the front. Lance could see Jan driving his legs and saw his face.
Its like this guys, when Jan went around Lance while he was on the ground, Jan looked and kept driving his legs. Thats when Jan should of slowed down. Not when Lance was catching up and Tyler yelling slow down.
I dont mean to bring up an old post, but I had a few question my post, and im just telling it like it is. Its not about me saying I told you so, its letting others know, they're wrong about Jan.
|Yeah Lance doesn't think Jan slowed at all||Live Steam|
Jul 31, 2003 6:46 PM
|He should know better than pretty much any one how Jan looks when he is coasting compared to when he is working. I was actually surprised to hear him state it, and rather emphatically too. I figure this will cause some kind of stir within the peleton and make a good story for next year's tour.|
|I, for one, was disappointed.||seyboro|
Jul 31, 2003 7:14 PM
|With much anticipation I sat down to get the view from the inside. Instead, for the first time, I saw a side of Armstrong many 'non-believers' had suspected was still there. I thought it was unfortunate for him to make the Ullrich-statement. The man just won his fifth tour and could have behaved a good bit more gracious.
Ullrich is mostly regarded as a good sportsman who sat up when the yellow jersey went down. Even if Armstrong saw it differently, he didn't need to shout it out. Both Phil and Paul did not follow-up on his statement for too long, although both believe it was wrong. Most of the world press seem to agree that Ullrich sat up. Ullrich himself said that he waited.
Why did he say it anyway? It would appear that he is not happy with just winning the tour, he wanted to demolish the field again. Well, the Texas Tornado fell a little short of his own expectations and it didn't work out that way. Sometimes you win the war and lose a few battles on the way. That doesn't make you loser. However, crying about what could have/might have/should have been, makes you a sore winner...
|Well I wouldn't go so far ...||Live Steam|
Jul 31, 2003 8:05 PM
|as to call him a sore winner. Later in the interview Lance said Jan was a real good guy and friendly to be around, but he probably shouldn't have said what he did even if that is what he believes. He may have been a little disappointed that Tyler had to race to the front of the break to slow them down as he did. He probably thought that it shouldn't have been necessary. He probably thinks that Jan is second dog to him and should have been the one to halt the others from attacking or continuing until it was clear what his situation was. It could also have been Bianchi's director failed to let him know exactly what LAs status was at the time. Sounds like they need some seasoning - LA said that Jan's team members and director didn't even warn him about the slick conditions on that turn where 3 of his teammates had already fallen. Either way it should make for good theater next year.|
|Holly cow! If given a chance I'd let people know what I thought.||Canidraftyou|
Jul 31, 2003 10:39 PM
|I dont think he was crying about it. The subject was brought to him, yeah both Phil and Paul did not follow-up on the statement, it wasnt their place...afraid to burn their bridges.
I would bet my next check, this was a huge issue the next time the team got together. I'm sure Tyler spoke to Lance about it after the race. If Tyler had to charge to the front, then someone was cranking it out...if I remember it right, Jan was in the front until they made the left switchback, then Jan was on the outside slowing down, thats because he could hear Tyler yelling prior to ever getting up front. Face the facts...Lance has a bit@h!!! And I also would let the world know.
I still think Jan is a great cyclist. Lance hears a lot from his team, other teams and people observing. WHY WOULD SOMEONE CHARGE THE FIELD AND WASTE ENERGY FOR NOTHING? Who ever thinks Tyler was just doing some "PR" you are a foul!
|That seems to be the difference...||seyboro|
Aug 1, 2003 3:19 AM
|...between Armstrong and Ullrich. Ol'Lance doesn't believe that a little humility goes a long way.
Why not give others the credit for a fast pace that put you in difficulty, regardless of circumstances? Forget about the rear brake rubbing for 100 km (BTW, I notice a pad on the rim after 2 feet). Forget about an 'ill-fitting shoe'. Forget about the 'intestinal bug you got after taking antibiotics for a crash in the Dauphine' (BTW, as much as I enjoy Bob Roll, if Lance ever comes to a sudden stop, Bobke WILL be half way up his rectum...)
In the OLN interview, Armstrong effectively called Ullrich a liar.
Ullrich deals differently with his opponents. Remember the interview Andreu got after the time trial win?
F.A:"Jan, did you think you could win today?"
J.U.:"No. I was lucky."
'LUCKY' to put a minute and a half into the guy who had not lost a long TT in the TdF? Puhleeeeaaase...
|Wrong, wrong, wrong....||eschelon|
Aug 4, 2003 6:16 AM
|Tyler is not Lance's b1tch. If your assertion is correct, then Zabel, McGee, Mckewen are Jan's b1tches for not even contesting the final day's intermediary sprint before ten individual time trial because Lance said when they approached one of the day's intermediary sprints, all of these contenders were nowhere in sight which ALLOWED Jan to collect six seconds bonus.|
Aug 4, 2003 12:26 PM
|Just tell it like it is...lol.
|Dissapointed? Me too||Fr Ted Crilly|
Aug 1, 2003 8:13 AM
|While I still greatly admire the athlete, LA lost some of my respect last night. Instead of just admitting that he was pushed harder than he ever has been before by another great cyclist on top of his game, he used that interview to list off the excuses for not having his usual 6 or 7 minute margin.
He may well have been dehydrated and lost a lot of weight on that ITT, but I bet all the top riders were suffering also with dehydration. Lance still finished second that day, so he can't have been that poorly.
His statement that Jan was being reckless and risking everyone's safety by sprinting for a mid-stage time bonus was pretty pathetic. If the shoe were on the other foot and it were Lance a minute back, would he not have done the same thing?
Yeah, he said Jan was a nice person who said hello to him in the morning, but that's hardly the sort of praise deserving for a man who just lost the TdF by only 61 seconds.
Aug 1, 2003 9:57 AM
|What got me was during the race, he kept alluding to some 'great unknown ailment' that will be revealed later. He kept referring to it in interviews. When asked point blank, there was nothing there. Phil Liggett got bored and changed the subject.
- i tried on new shoes and it was bothering my hip
- i stabbed by a handlebar in the crash
- my brakes were rubbing
- it didn't look like beloki crashed that hard
And that comment about Ullrich not waiting for you... Lance, learn to bite your lip and shut up. When something is that big an issue, you better have great evidence and all the facts 100% before you make a whiny statement like that and go against the rest of the cycling world.
You're a champ. Act like a champ. You're going to get $100 million in endorsements this year. Don't be a sore winner and get all facts straight (and prove it to us).
|Lance doesn't really care...||CrankE|
Aug 1, 2003 9:01 AM
|what anyone thinks. Never really has. I for one find his honesty refreshing in a meely-mouthed world. He says what he thinks. If you don't like it - go grow some thicker skin.
He's more approachable and has learned to deal with the press. That's more tactic than personality. He's still the same guy. And it's that guy that got him 5 and an honest shot at 6 consecutive victories.
Anyone want to bet against him next year?
|It's not about the bike.||fine_tuner|
Aug 1, 2003 12:34 PM
|It's about me me me. LA lost alot of respect on that show. Jan didn't wait? Well LA don't fall in 2004 because you'll see what not waiting really looks like. BTW I now think Pantani did win the sprint on Mont Ventoux.|
|I agree, and I also agree he has a complaint.||Canidraftyou|
Jul 31, 2003 10:42 PM
|Like another post of mine. Lance likes drama, it sells!!!
Dang, what a tour for next season.
|For Lance, different view of the cycling world?||biggearlover|
Aug 1, 2003 3:09 AM
|I seem to remember that in his first pro year in Europe (long ago!!) LA was complaining about pro race mentality: too much tactics and unwritten rules, not enough hard racing, attacking.
Nowadays it seems to be all about how the unwritten rules are or should be understood (in the mind of LA anyway). Talk is cheap, again.
What changed for Lance?
I'd like to see LA use his legs more, in the Vuelta f.i., and not subject me to all this talk.
'My performance was not acceptable'! Don't make me laugh.
|Well, if Jan didn't slow up...||Dwayne Barry|
Aug 1, 2003 4:18 AM
|how come Tyler (and several others) caught him?|
|I'm not sure that Tyler was that far back...||James OCLV|
Aug 1, 2003 5:22 AM
|I think that Jan did slow up (watching the recap of the stage, you can see that he kept looking over his sholder), but not right away... I looks to me like he had to think about it a little bit before he actually slowed. In his shoes, it must have been a tough decision. When Lance slowed up and waited for him, Lance was already in the lead by 5 min. or so. When Lance crashed, he was only ahead by 15 seconds... I'm sure that the thought of not waiting occured to Ullrich, and the fact that he did wait is more testament to his sportsmanship.
I agree that even if Lance truly felt like Ullrich didn't wait, he shouldn't have said it publicly.
|Jan didn't slow up..........at first||lanterne rouge|
Aug 1, 2003 10:15 PM
|James, I agree with you. I think that adrenalin got the best of Jan at first. He was battling with the decision. When the camera first goes back to Jan (when Armstrong and Mayo are struggling to get going again) he is pumping away at the pedals. HE IS NOT SLOWING! (In fact I would argue that he accelerated, after all, he was almost stopped when he swerved to avoid the crash!) After about 10 seconds I think he realized and did slow his pace. I don't think Tyler was doing any kind of PR move, he just wanted to make sure that everybody waited for the Maillot Jaune (who also happens to be a good friend of his). I concur that Jan showed extraordinary sportsmanship in slowing, honestly, I don't know if I would have.|
|At the time of crash, the group was only 10 feet behind Jan!!!||Canidraftyou|
Aug 1, 2003 4:46 PM
|I call BS. LANCE SAID he was already attacking prior to||Fez|
Aug 1, 2003 7:35 AM
|the fall. Mayo and Ullrich were going full steam answering LA's attack. Then LA and Mayo fall.
Ullrich continued to pedal but STOPPED ANSWERING the attack. The road was mighty steep and you have to keep some momentum going. You can't expect Jan to almost come to a stop.
If Lance lost to Ullrich and he said this garbage, people would say he is a sore loser.
But since Lance won, he figures he can say this and it will enhance his greatness - that he won despite falling hard, riding a bike with a half broken chainstay, and still beating out a great cyclist who did not wait for him. LOL!
I guess Ullrich should give back the sportsmanship award some German organization gave him that week. (Sarcasm intended).
|Jan isn't really at fault. Are all of you forgetting...||BAi9302010|
Aug 1, 2003 2:06 PM
|Ullrich and Armstrong weren't the only ones there when LA crashed? There was also Mayo, Hamilton, Zubeldia, etc. and Vino wasn't too far off the rear. Ullrich dropped his pace (maybe not all too noticably) when he saw Armstrong crash, and he continued to look behind to see if Lance was ok, but he shouldn't be expected to slow down completely when there are several riders around him challenging his GC position who haven't slown down either.
Look at it this way. Jan was riding right behind Lance when he crashed and the crash looked pretty bad. For all he knew Lance could have been out of the race at that point and Jan would have moved into 1st overall. If he had slowed down completely and Lance hadn't gotten back up, he would have had to to some serious chasing in order to catch the rest of the GC challengers who were moving up the road and he would have had a huge risk of losing his place on the GC. Jan WAS concerned for Lance, but he wasn't about to let Zubeldia and Mayo move clear and Vino catch back up to his group. Remember, these were the two guys who sat on Ullrich's wheel after LA attacked again and then challenged Ullrich for the sprint when he had done all of the pace setting. Do you really think they would have waited for Ullrich if he had waited for LA and LA had been unable to get up?
|re: LA is a sore looser||cyclopathic|
Aug 1, 2003 9:51 AM
|he just can't stand people saying "what if.."|
|re: LA is a sore looser (loser I think)||atpjunkie|
Aug 1, 2003 3:15 PM
|actually he's a sore winner|
|re: LOL nm||cyclopathic|
Aug 4, 2003 4:43 AM
|How on earth would he have seen this lying on the floor... nm||FastPete|
Aug 1, 2003 12:42 PM
|uh, hello? He plainly said in the interview that he watched the footage afterwards||lonefrontranger|
Aug 1, 2003 4:14 PM
|That had to be one of the sorriest interviews I've ever seen. They never gave enough time to really build momentum to any of the questions, and Phil and Paul kept cutting off to go to commercial just as Lance was warming to the subject.
Lance is pretty much still a JA, has been for years. I've never been a fan. He's a great athlete but has a rotten personality. He's just got better press agents now than he had when he was younger.
|...something to chew on...||peter1|
Aug 3, 2003 5:52 PM
|"Lance is pretty much still a JA, has been for years. I've never been a fan. He's a great athlete but has a rotten personality. He's just got better press agents now than he had when he was younger."
A lot of dominant athletes (Jack Nicklaus, Michael Jordan, Barry Bonds, for example) seem to share this trait. I'd say it's self-centeredness to the point of selfishness, or to the point of denying that any version of the facts other than yours is wrong.
But maybe that's what it takes to really dominate. I mean, you can't reach that level without focusing on yourself to the exclusion of others.
Obviously, there are exceptions. Wayne Gretzky seems to be pretty mellow; Indurain was pretty quiet off the bike.
What you saw before the Tour this year was a much more open, gracious Lance Armstrong (anyone see the OLN interview with Sam Posey?). What we got in the Tour was a win, true, but it was a sub-par performance, for whatever reason. I think Lance sees some sort of correlation, and I suspect next year he won't be winning the orange award, or whatever they call it, for being the most open with the press...
In previous years, riders (except Pantani) wouldn't attack because Lance had already weakened their confidence before the race began. This year, he didn't do that. When you've got just one or two legitimate chances to attack, you better be sure it will stick, or you're back in the pack with Gilberto Simoni and Stefano Garzelli.
|There is a price for success, I would pay the price for awhile.||Canidraftyou|
Aug 3, 2003 6:20 PM
|I think you're very right, for most Athletes anyway. A price must be paid for success. Some may have to sell their soul, and others cant have families. Its more often seen with Football players and Baseball players, because its a more followed sport in N. America. Chew on this one, try going out to eat, hunt, buy a car or just take a walk at the park. At anytime a superstar athlete may be approached and asked questions, and asked to sign a piece of paper. It would get old day after day after day. I say its the price you pay and should be excepted. For the people make it possible for you making the money. No fans, means no following and no money. I would pay the price, for awhile...lol.
I agree with your statement,
"But maybe that's what it takes to really dominate. I mean, you can't reach that level without focusing on yourself to the exclusion of others."
|people bent out of shape too easily...||yeah right|
Aug 1, 2003 1:03 PM
|people's hero worship and concern about every word that comes out of lance's mouth is disconcerning.
lance speaks his mind... good for him. says jan is a nice guy... good for him. says he's not sure jan slowed down... good for him. tyler slowed the bunch down... good for him.
the point is jan didn't attack or speed up, which isn't something lance contested, but he didn't exactly shift down and cruise either. tyler kept people from attacking (a la dauphine) which is the cardinal sin in this situation. lance doesn't expect them to all hop off and wait, just not to take advantage of the situation. lance's middle name isn't christ either, take or leave what hey says.
|I agree||Live Steam|
Aug 1, 2003 8:26 PM
|Too much is being made of this. Motive, intent or what ever, is hard to determine. Who knows why LA said what he did about that situation. I am sure he is dead tired and has spoken to a ton of media. He has probably answerd that same question in a few different languages. This last time it may have come out a bit more matter of factly.
I think everyone must admit that, like him or not, you wouldn't wanted to have seen him lose his chance at five straight for a silly fall like that or for a mechanical like a flat, would you have? I doubt even Jan would have wanted to win under either of those circumstances. The guy is the best right now. He may have another in him and I wouldn't bet against him for sure, and Jan will win another Tour or three himself, unless Tyler joins Postal's strong squad. I think he has what it takes to win, including the smarts.
I get the feeling that Jan has the skill and strength, but not the smarts to win consistently. He may need better coaching than he is presently getting. I could envision Tyler going Postal and Jan in CSC colors.
|What flat??? Tyler will not go Postal until Lance retires.||Canidraftyou|
Aug 2, 2003 10:24 AM
|WHAT FLAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? I also posted it would be nice for Tyler to go Postal, but it would not even be thought/kicked around until Lance gives the team up. I would agree, CSC would be a good team for Jan...later!
|The flat was a hypothetical! So is the Tyler to ....||Live Steam|
Aug 2, 2003 10:52 AM
|Postal scenario. My point was that I don't think anyone, including Lance haters and Tour organizers, wanted to see the race settled because of some fluke or bad luck. The kid hooking LAs bars with the bag was certainly a fluke.
I moved the Tyler/Ullrich topic to a seperate thread above. I don't know if Tyler to Postal hasn't already been kicked around by Weisel and Bruyneel.
|Just about everything has but their shoe size...LOL.||Canidraftyou|
Aug 2, 2003 3:21 PM
|I think he was just trying to focus the credit on Tyler nm||DougSloan|
Aug 1, 2003 3:10 PM
|"You can have several motives with one action."||Canidraftyou|
Aug 1, 2003 4:59 PM
|Create drama, for drama sells and sells mean money! It was an interview of LANCE, so Lance had a chance to tell his side of it. He won the tour, he has every right to say whats on his mind. Maybe DougSloan has some it right. Giving Tyler a little thanks/credit!
Dang, people get all shook up, because Lance spoke out on a subject that was brought to him. IF THE QUESTION WAS NEVER ASKED, IM SURE HE WOULD OF NEVER SPOKE ON IT.
|It doesn't really matter who brought up the subject..||fcebedo|
Aug 1, 2003 10:06 PM
|.. it is irrelevant. You have to answer like the pro and the champ that you are.
Example Question: "Did Beloki deserve to crash?"
Answer: "As a matter of fact, yes."
An issue is an issue whether you bring it up or an interviewer brings it up. No excuses.
Some people fret at the reactions to Lance's few words. Well, we're disappointed and it's ok to express our disappointment. He's the great cyclist and we expect great words and great virtue.
When it comes to interviews. Lance is not Tiger Woods. But jeez don't be like Barry Bonds <-- punk@ss.
|WE KNOW WHO LANCE IS, WE DONT KNOW THE REALTIGER.||Canidraftyou|
Aug 1, 2003 11:11 PM
|Did Beloki deserve to crash? You give the answer "As a matter of fact, yes." Thats not the words Lance gave!
TIGER WOODS!...He works so hard to be politically correct, he sucks! "Political correctness is for people afraid to say what they really think." WE KNOW WHO LANCE IS, WE DON"T KNOW THE REAL TIGER.
|WE KNOW WHO LANCE IS, WE DONT KNOW THE REALTIGER.||fcebedo|
Aug 2, 2003 12:22 AM
|Ummm, that's an example question ace. No one asked that and no one answered it that way. I'm saying an issue is an issue no matter who brought it up.
You can mock Tiger Woods all you want. The point is Lance is my hero and I wish he would talk more like Woods and Jordan and Montana BUT less like some REAL people like Barry Bonds and Mike Tyson.
Lance has done well of late year winning 'most accessible to the Tour press', speaking french well even showing a lot of joy in those Subaru commercials. That's why that interview was quite disappointing.
|Francis wants Lance to be like Mike...LOL. Lance Jordan, NOT!||Canidraftyou|
Aug 2, 2003 3:23 AM
|A let down for you, is a "Golf" clap coming from me. What I agree on, and what you agree on are not one in the same. My point made as well as your point taken, what the hell was your point. Oh you want Lance to like MIKE...lol. AND GAMBLE???
Go drive some balls.
Aug 2, 2003 10:16 AM
|The sad reality - even sports heroes are human||Chris|
Aug 4, 2003 8:18 AM
|The tough part of being in Lance's shoes is that everyone will be so extremely critical of every action - especially his own fans. He runs the risk of being human, and letting everyone down.
Everyone wants their sports hero to be the golden child, the perfect example of everything. We're taken back when we learn that they're human, when they don't live up to "our own" expectations, when they voice controversial opinions, and of course, especially when they make mistakes.
|I agree Doug, plus he may have been ...||Live Steam|
Aug 1, 2003 8:30 PM
|sending Jan another message like - "Right now you are secong top dog to me. Tyler shouldn't have had to tell you and the rest to slow. That should have been your job as one of the big dogs." Motive and intent are hard to determine, but it's fun to try and figure out.|| |