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OK, are pretty much all the TDF riders doped up?(20 posts)
|OK, are pretty much all the TDF riders doped up?||ajoc_prez|
Jul 29, 2003 5:54 PM
|I read on another board that pretty much all the TDF riders, especially the top ones, are doped up with new drugs that can't be detected. One nimrod said that one of the teams had to monitor their riders overnight because the drugs could make their heart rates drop too low.
Is this total BS or is doping a common thing in cycling and the new drugs are always one step ahead of the people doing the testing? If its the latter, I'll be dissappointed that all these guys are pretty much cheating and the riders with the best doctors are the ones that stay on top.
|OK, I'll take a stab...||philippec|
Jul 30, 2003 12:25 AM
|Who knows? I'd like to think most riders are clean (In fact I usually am able to convince myself that most riders are clean), but I'm no fool (or perhaps I am?) and if it comes out that Armstrong, Indurain, lowly rider x, etc... are/were doped on some new wonderdrug, I won't be surprised.
Re. the waking up at night to prevent heart failure... that is in reference to riders who used to take heavy doses of EPO back in the 90's. Their blood became so thick, they needed to get up at night and exercise to prevent clots/heart atacks (or so the story goes). In fact, one journalist once said that the press corps would know who was going to be performing well by listening to hotel doors to see who was riding rollers at 3:00 am. EPO is now relatively easy to detect (well, until Rumsas pulled the wool over everyone last year) and is systematically included in all doping controls -- so I doubt many riders are still using it (the occasional rider does get caught - witness the positive test in this year's TDF) given the risk of likely detection.
Jul 30, 2003 4:53 AM
|My impression would be that most riders are using non-banned substances to aid their recovery. Some of these substances will be banned in the future, but as of now, are not. It's really a case of the drug discovery industry being a step ahead of the WADA. The WADA guidelines specifically ban drugs by name - which means anything not specifically banned is legal. You can be sure that every team is pushing the ethical limits to be the best.
Is it doping, if it isn't banned? I don't know. Is drinking Gatorade instead of water doping? I shouldn't think so - but that's the slippery slope.
|If I remember correctly ...||sacheson|
Jul 30, 2003 9:21 AM
|... the rules aren't explicit for certain drugs, more the enhanced effect of using said drugs.
Example: when the Finnish (might be wrong) nordic skier was eliminated from the last winter Olympics, he wasn't using a banned drug - but he WAS using Activen (or Optigen, or something), a newer drug (not on the banned list at that time) that has an EPO-like effect. He was ejected on a rule that the enhancement achieved from doping is what's banned, a way the IOC and WADA can stay ahead of the chemists.
It's the same logic they are using to attack altitude chambers ... you're not using a "drug" per-se, but you are achieving drug like results from using the device.
I'd be interested if anyone can find proof of my statement. As I said, I'm no expert and am only regurgitating something I heard.
|If I remember correctly ...||TJeanloz|
Jul 30, 2003 9:45 AM
|I think you are correct, but that requires that WADA knows of the drug, and tests for it - which is unlikely. And further, none of these drugs have clinical studies for the uses they are being put to, so the riders can't say for sure that they actually are enhancing performance. It's an ethics question, really.|
|I think they do this backwards||DougSloan|
Jul 30, 2003 6:33 AM
|Rather than having a list of banned substances, I think they should have a list of *permitted* substances the riders can put in their bodies. Eliminates, at least by the rules, cases of coming up with something new and secretly benefitting from it. Still, it would be hard to enforce, and without enforcement, cheating is encouraged (if everyone else is doing it...).
Jul 30, 2003 6:40 AM
|It's amazing, but you see a woman with nice breasts today and almost by instinct, someone, male or female, will say "those aren't real." Well, I'm going out on a limb and saying, with absolute certainty, that some of them are real.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that certain people are conditioned to assume the worst in other people, and probably themselves. They see fake breasts everywhere and doped cyclists everywhere (maybe even in the same place). These people are losers.
Anyone who claims to know about doping who isn't a current member of the team is talking sh_t. I don't know why you would believe someone who posts that kind of stuff on a board. I don't doubt that there are riders out there who are using banned substances, but one thing is for sure. If riders or teams are doping, they are going to keep it very secret. It won't be general knowledge that gets casually posted to the Internet.
Don't you think that if HuffyRider12 from Salida, Kansas heard a twelfth-hand but 120% accurate report on a team that is flagrantly doping, someone at the UCI has heard the same thing? That should be your first clue when judging the veracity of any posts by people who claim to know the scoop.
|Have you read the book by Willie Voet?||James OCLV|
Jul 30, 2003 7:10 AM
|If you haven't, I definately recommend it. At the very least, it's thought provoking. He'd have you believe that every professional cyclist in the European Pro Peleton is dopping, and he actually makes a very convincing argument towards that end.|
|Come on...||Dwayne Barry|
Jul 30, 2003 7:23 AM
|that was back in the dark ages of pro-cycling (also known as the 90's). I can't remember the last time someone failed a drug test!|
|failed test: last week in TDF nm...||philippec|
Jul 30, 2003 7:28 AM
|I see my attempt at sarcasm...||Dwayne Barry|
Jul 30, 2003 7:38 AM
|was an utter failure!
Yeah, and earlier this year Bortolami with the old-standby Kenacort and Perez for EPO are two big name riders that come to mind.
Although I agree with the sentiment that teams are no longer organizing doping programs, it's probably mostly an individual rider/soigneur/doctor thing nowadays.
|parts of it||mohair_chair|
Jul 30, 2003 7:31 AM
|It's nice that he feels that way but the fact is that he doesn't know. I can write off his statements quite easily as covering his own ass: Everybody's doing it, so what I did wasn't wrong. Plus, the guy's whole existance was about doping his riders, so I'm sure he just assumes that every team had a Willie Voet. Considering the cost of the doping program, which he himself details, even he can't believe that all teams can afford to do it. And yet, he does. The guy is making stuff up. He's creating his own reality. Besides, that was four or five years ago and has little relevance today.
Let me be clear. I am not naive. I do believe there is a small percentage of riders who are doping today. I do not believe that it is widespread like certain people want to believe, including Mr. Voet.
|It's true - don't believe everything you read..||James OCLV|
Jul 30, 2003 8:10 AM
|I just thought that the book was intersting and thought provoking.
It's hard to believe that Lance, with all that he went through, would take any kind of substance that might jeapordize his health. I can't imagine that any amount of TDF victories would be worth the risk. Then again, who knows for sure?
Jul 30, 2003 11:32 AM
|"They see fake breasts everywhere... These people are losers."
Or, they live in New York!
Seriously, how are we to assume the best when time and time again athletes (and public figures) let us down? For example, Bill Bennett preaches morality while nurturing a gambling addiction, and Kobe Bryant, the family man, at the very least committed adultery six months after his daughter's birth. I could probably go on.
And didn't Merckx and Indurain test positive for doping at some point in their career?
I think that cycling is certainly doing a better job than most sports (especially baseball and football) in testing for doping. Unfortunately this vigilance has only served to publicize the problem while the NFL and Major League baseball celebrate the pumped-up caricatures that pass for pros these days.
It's hard, nay impossible to know how many riders are truly "clean." I, for one, would like to see Armstrong and other leaders of the peleton take a strong stance against doping. In some ways, their relative silence speaks volumes to me. Let me put it this way: I don't think Armstrong, Ullrich, Vino are using banned substances.
And that's a pretty fine distinction to make. kind of like being found "not guilty" rather than "innocent."
|LA admits to using this ...||Humma Hah|
Jul 30, 2003 11:55 AM
|Obviously doping if using that product...||tazdag|
Jul 30, 2003 12:58 PM
|Merck Index lists this as a bronchodilator, and even a myocardial stimulant in veterinary settings. Why it isn't banned is a complete mystery.
Now I think I'll walk down to the vending machine an get me some of that broncodilator for my ride home from work. If it's good enough for Lance, it's good enough for me!
Jul 30, 2003 9:26 PM
|Malcolm Gladwell had an interesting article in the Sep 10, 2001 New Yorker on doping (who does it? why? how? how much? who's policing? how? etc.?).
|Fantastic article. Thanks. nm||shirt|
Jul 30, 2003 10:38 PM
|The juice on EPO.||wspokes|
Aug 1, 2003 3:45 AM
|I can tell you this. If their Hematocrit goes above 50 it is considered doping with EPO. If used correctly and monitored...use small doses, less often. They can probably use EPO for some benefits and get away with it. The urine test for it is very ineffective unless a rider doesn't whizz for the WHOLE stage and has taken the shot just prior to the stage which would be stupid and have no immediate benefits. But cancer patients I used to take care of would get epo 3 times a week...when athletes first started using this stuff. The young dutch riders were dropping dead from clots because the idiots were juicing sometimes everyday with it...if a CA patient only needs it 3 times a week in a debilitated state...a normal healthy rider could probably take a slight dosage once a week for some benefits...and it isn't like they would need to take as high a dose.
I believe to some extent that a great deal of these guys are doping...I also hope that some are not. I had a friend who raced in Europe for two years as an amatuer and he said he stayed clean the first year...got threatened to get dropped because of no results and always struggling...he started using and started placing and competing better. Nadralone, Stanzolol, and then he started EPO in SMALL doses...he said it worked wonders for the recovery. he became a confident climber. He came home and went back to college after year 2 and told me he would never go again because it just felt unethical...funny...he didn't complain about ethics when he was using for the second year.
|quick follow up post||wspokes|
Aug 1, 2003 3:54 AM
|I best do a quick Cover my ass follow up post. I don't advocate doping in any way. I believe it is no longer a team organized process as before. I believe it is an individual decision as someone else stated...rider/doctor relationship type thing. I do believe there are some riders that are pure and strive to be pure. I also am not naive and believe that some riders dope...because they feel they have to dope.
My post above came about from a coversation a doctor and I had last night in talking about how riders could probably dope and get away with it IF they used their heads. He stated that the ones that get busted are not doping under the supervision of a doctor otherwise they wouldn't get busted. His knowledge regarding chemistry and how drugs work on the human body was very convincing and very knowledge filled! It also reinforced the statement about the riders decisions being more individual with close relationship with docs to assist.
I don't support it or feel it is right. I never used a product in the years I raced but I can tell you I plenty suspected some riders with good reason. I just am thankful I stopped racing at a point to finally enjoy the actual riding!