|Should Ullrich have waited for him?||fine_tuner|
Jul 24, 2003 4:08 PM
|After all two years ago, it was a great gesture, but of little importance to the race -- they were going downhill. This time, Ullrich lost all his rhythm and he can never accelerate like Lance. Just another viewpoint. Phil Leggett-
Lets pretend Lance's first attack succeeds. He's ahead by 01:10 (I believe his successful brake was that far up at one point). Now at this time "The excitement generated by the race's arrival prompted a child, watching from the side of the road, to throw his arms forward. A bag he carried caught the right of Armstrong's bars and the rider in the yellow jersey went tumbling down". Do the riders behind slow down?
|Jan never really did, until Tyler held everyone in check!||Canidraftyou|
Jul 24, 2003 4:34 PM
|Jan never really did, until Tyler held everyone in check! Tyler charged up front and had to yell at everyone to slow down!!! Maybe you did not see the race I did. Jan at that point had to slow down, because he would of looked very very bad to continue when everyone else slowed down. Its all on tape.
Jul 24, 2003 4:56 PM
|On mine, Armstrong crashes, Mayo on top of him, Ullrich goes around, Rubiera comes up, Armstrong is back on his bike, Ullrich sits up, Armstrong slips out of his pedal, Mayo goes around, Rubiera doesn't notice, Armstrong rides up to his teammate, the Basque Boys are pushing the pace, Hamilton goes up and lays down the law, Armstrong gets on, they ride for 15 seconds, Mayo attacks, Armstrong follows and drops him and everyone else. Ullrich's sitting up would qualify as, well..., sitting up, woudn't it? Am I missing something here?|
|I timed it||atpjunkie|
Jul 24, 2003 5:07 PM
|LA and Mayo were re-integrated with the group for a minute 35 before Mayo's attack so this whole 'Jan couldn't accelerate' arguement is rubbish. The group picked up the pace once LA joined and a minute plus later Mayo attacked. Jan was looking back, sitting up and slowing but it was Tyler who laid down the law.|
|The 2nd time I watched it...||Ron B|
Jul 24, 2003 5:25 PM
|I realized that Lance rode with the group for a lot longer than I originally thought. To me there was plenty of time for the group, including Ullrich to recover and get a rythem going.
Also, knowing that Lance was in the midst of an attack when he went down, Ullrich had to know that there was another one comming soon. He should have been prepared to respond when Lance went. The loss of rythem argument to me is an excuse for the general public to continue on the Lance is off form argument. Granted Lance isn't as strong as last year, but looking at it closely I'd say he has been somewhat ill through a lot of this year's tour.
I will say that Ullrich was looking to see where Lance was, but how much he slowed down will always be in question. You would have to be able to measure the speed decrease to really know. What is obvious is that Tyler Hamilton was the one who ended up taking control of the lead group and had them slow down to wait for Lance, I didn't see much action from Ullrich other than bewilderment that Lance actually went down on a climb, something nobody would expect, at least not like that.
All in all, it was a great stage. One that will be analyized for some time to come.
|I agree. The crash probably did Jan a favor.||Sintesi|
Jul 24, 2003 5:44 PM
|Lance was attacking when he went down and Mayo was the only one on his wheel. If Lance could have gotten away he might have got a minute and a half on Ullrich instead of 40 seconds.|
|Not sure about that...||Crash|
Jul 24, 2003 6:00 PM
|Everyone makes it seem like Lance and Mayo had dropped the rest of the group. Jan was maybe 10 feet behind and keeping pace. When Lance went down Mayo crashed almost on top of him and Jan almost hit them both about a second later. Not much of a gap.
Also, after Lance made his attack the lead over the Jan group (might as well call it that he was the only one working) at one time was well over a minute, I think even close to 1:10. That time went down by the finish to 40 seconds. If anything Lance might have started his attack TOO early.
And again, no offense to Tyler (who I think really is the hero of the Tour and his win yesterday the highlight so far) but, Tyler had been popped off the back of the group before the crash and if Jan hadn't slowed down he would have never caught up. As soon as Lance and Mayo rejoined the group Tyler immediately was left off the back. I love the guy, but he was slowing down a train that had already stopped.
|Not sure about that...||fine_tuner|
Jul 24, 2003 6:06 PM
|good points all. love the train part spot on.|
|Your guess is as good as mine.||Sintesi|
Jul 24, 2003 6:48 PM
|Personally I think Ullrich himself would cop to being gapped at the time of the wreck and has said in the past he can't match Armstrong's accelerations when he's on form. Maybe a successful earlier attack would have given Lance time to recover from the initial burst and have another go gettting even more time. I think he certainly would have been more in control of his efforts and not in such an adrenalized panic.
Who knows. Shoulda woulda coulda.
Armstrong certainly benefitted from Ullrich's slow down tho.
|Huh?? I saw that race too, and...||The The|
Jul 24, 2003 5:02 PM
|Hamilton and the chase group caught Ullrich mighty fast, no? It appeared as though Jan was going very slow compared to the other riders, didn't it? Based on these facts, I don't think your argument is very strong. From the moment Jan passed the fallen Armstrong and Mayo, he made a point of looking behind him on a regular basis to see if they had recovered, and he did so at a slow pace. Hamilton and his chase group caught up with Jan at a fast pace, and it was not until after the first riders in the group had passed a much slower Ullrich that Hamilton told his chase colleagues to slow down.|
|Not only that ...||Crash|
Jul 24, 2003 5:22 PM
|After Jan went passed the fallen Lance and Mayo he sat up on his bike and was zig-zagging from side to side on the road (the same thing the cops in SoCal do to slow down traffic) all the while looking back to see where Lance was. Tyler had already been dropped from the lead group, and although it looked more dramatic to see him waving at the other riders to make sure they slowed, if Jan hadn't sat up and free wheeled Tyler would have never caught up to do it. Don't get me wrong, the stronger rider won that stage and even if Jan had not slowed Lance would have probably caught him, but at least give the guy a little credit.|
|no, jan did.||rufus|
Jul 25, 2003 5:27 AM
|remember, after mayo and lance went down, ulrich was the only rider still in the front, the rest were coming up from behind. ulrich was soft-pedalling waiting for lance to get back up, but when the rest, like basso and zubeldia, caught up to him, they were ready to keep on going, and were blowing right by ulrich as he pulled to the side and looked back. that's when tyler came to the front and began yelling at all the other guys. he wasn't yelling at ulrich.|
|re: Should Ullrich have waited for him?||fine_tuner|
Jul 24, 2003 6:00 PM
|The hypothetical question I was getting at is this. If Lance fell down when he was 70 seconds in front of these guys they would not have slowed down.
So did they really need to slow when it happened right in front of them?
As we all remember when Joseba Beloki crashed Lance took one look and hauled ass. There was no way he could have known Beloki's condition.
The causeway incident is another case in point. Lance in the group ahead of the crash took off and put Alex Z. and others 15 minutes down on that stage
|Took one look, yes...||seyboro|
Jul 24, 2003 6:23 PM
|...hauled ass, probably. I distinctly remember a hand gesture to one of the guys in the chasing group behind Vinokourov, as if to say: "Look, mate...Vino's up the road, I gotta chase."
As for the crash itself, I have a feeling Armstrong knew Beloki was out as soon as he hit the deck. Phil Liggett called it right away.
Armstrong's little topple pales in comparison. I'm sure Ullrich knew Lance would get back on, if he sat up for a minute.
|re: Should Ullrich have waited for him?||CrankE|
Jul 25, 2003 4:36 AM
|If Beloki had gotten up and continued in good shape, I could tolerate Lance not stopping - Beloki blew it all by himself on an open road. The better man stayed upright and kept going.
Lance had little choice other than to keep going down that field. And none of the other riders (Hamilton, Ullrich etc.) held up did they?
Granted - Lance was riding close to the crowd - but it's unheard of to see that sort of accident. Lance had help in going down. Beloki wrecked on his own, where no one else did.
It's of little consequence that Ullrich waited - Lance was riding so quick, he still would have passed them and won the stage, just farther down the road. Assuming he wins, if his lead after Champs Elysee is anything more than 15 or 20 seconds, Ullrich's waiting is simply academic.
|The "unwritten rule" usually only applies to the race leader...||James OCLV|
Jul 25, 2003 5:18 AM
|In most cases, the field will slow down and wait for the race leader if he is involved in a crash, or even if he stops to relieve himself. Had Ullrich been in yellow at the time of Lance's crash, I don't think that it would have been put upon him to wait. When Lance waited for Ullrich two years ago, he did so out of respect. Ullrich did the same on stage 15 for the same reason. He himself admited that he doesn't race that way and woudln't want to win that way (taking advantage of the leader's misfortune).|
Jul 25, 2003 1:58 PM
|What goes around comes around. Lance waited for him two years ago, he didnt attack this year during Jan's wheel change (same stage). He also could have attacked when Jan was back by the team car giving those used powerbars back. Not that it tactically would have made any difference tho, other than Jan having to deal with shorts full of mud.
He didn't wait for Joseba because he is a wheel sucking leech.
Ullrich for Sportsman of the year.
|So, who are you rooting for in Saturday's ITT ??? (NM)||Crash|
Jul 25, 2003 5:41 PM