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Did Lance take unfair advantage? (aka beating a dead horse)(12 posts)

Did Lance take unfair advantage? (aka beating a dead horse)Stinky Hippie
Jul 21, 2003 6:52 PM
I'm watching stage 15 yet again and have been paying close attention to the hotly debated issue concerning Lance's attack on Ullrich. Some say Lance didn't give Ullrich enough time to regain his tempo after slowing the pace to wait for him. Here's what I'm seeing:

1. Ullrich took quite a long time to decellerate after he saw the crash. Was he just trying to keep his gearing and cadence? Perhaps. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But Lance could not see him up the road when he finally got back on the bike and could only assume that Ullrich had not slowed.

2. Regardless of whether Ullrich had or had not tried to kick a dying dog,Lance rode with Jan for quite a while before MAYO attacked. Lance responded, brought him in and the pace resumed. Mayo attacks again!! Lance follows and quickly drops him. Lance did not immediately attack a lumbering Ullrich.

3. If Lance had let Mayo go, so, too, would go his 20 second time bonus for first. Lance had no choice in this situation. Ullrich might have had an answer if he hadn't attacked on Tourmalet.

I lost alot of respect for Mayo when he seemingly picked up the pace before Lance could rejoin the group. I'm thus reconsidering my assessment of Euskatel's antics at the finish line.

My 2 cents

Feel the gin
re: Did Lance take unfair advantage? (aka beating a dead horse)lnin0
Jul 21, 2003 7:33 PM
I agree. Lance did not come up and ride right past the group after he crashed. He rode with them and everything got settled in and then Mayo jumped. Lance responded.

With or without the crash Ullrich would have been in the same spot - he lost this race on the Tourmalet. I really don't know what he was feeling but that was just a bad move for someone who hasn't really been shining in the mountains let alone the past two years.

As for Euskatel - I'm so glad they won't be seeing the podium in Paris. They did nothing. Had nothing and then punked Ullrich at the end. I sure hope that impressed the home crowd because I think it turned off everyone else to the Basques riders.

I just wish someone would call out the organizers for again allowing something like this to deflate what should have been, as Bobky puts it, an appocoliptic stage.
re: Did Lance take unfair advantage? (aka beating a dead horse)fine_tuner
Jul 21, 2003 7:33 PM
I think it's important to keep in mind that Mayo also went down in the crash.
When Lance and Mayo caught up to a slowed down and cooling group of riders I think they should have given them more than the 500 meters (my guess, and I think I'm being a bit generous) to get their cadence and HR's back up.
So yes I think they took advantage.
But Mayo was accelerating before Lance even rejoined....Stinky Hippie
Jul 21, 2003 7:50 PM
....the group. That was a big difference. And, to make matters worse. unlike Ullrich, Mayo knew exactly what was going on.
I think if anyone is to blameatpjunkie
Jul 21, 2003 7:55 PM
it was Mayo. Kudos to Jan and Tyler for being sportsmen. LA seemed to 'react' to Mayo's acceleration which IMHO was more due to his adrenaline level from crashing than any conscious plan
But Mayo was accelerating before Lance even rejoined....fine_tuner
Jul 21, 2003 7:55 PM
Thats true. The point I was getting at was.
1. Mayo was not part of the Ullrich group.
2. He was as hopped up (adrenalin rush) from the crash as Lance was.
3. The group was cooling.
re: Did Lance take unfair advantage? (aka beating a dead horse)cyclejim
Jul 21, 2003 8:07 PM
Ullrich himself said it was a nice break and he took a breather, so if he didnt think Armstrong took advantage I dont know why anyone else would
There is no prob. getting your HR back up during a climb.Canidraftyou
Jul 21, 2003 11:06 PM
Jan was watching and looking back the whole time as LA was catching up. Jan never did look back while Lance was out of site. Only when Lance was coming back into the group. Jan and others had time to get back into pace/HR.

Peace out
After watching the stage again...Ron B
Jul 21, 2003 9:44 PM
I don't think so.

Lance rode with the group a lot longer than I rememberd this morning. Everybody had time to recover, and it looked as if Lance was content with sitting in the pack for a little while longer.

Then Mayo attacked and Lance responded to the attack, where nobody else could. Lance used the counter attack to ride at his own pace and nobody could stay with him.

If anybody tried to take an unfair advantage it was Mayo attacking when he did.
Lance responded when Mayo jumped, Jan did not have it.Canidraftyou
Jul 21, 2003 11:02 PM
Way I see it, Lance was caught up, and then Mayo jumped. I think Jan was fully aware of what was going on. Jan just did not have it at that time.

Peace out
re: Did Lance take unfair advantage? (aka beating a dead horse)elsaltamontes
Jul 22, 2003 10:23 AM
I'm watching stage 15 yet again and have been paying close attention to the hotly debated issue concerning Lance's attack on Ullrich. Some say Lance didn't give Ullrich enough time to regain his tempo after slowing the pace to wait for him. Here's what I'm seeing:

1. Ullrich took quite a long time to decellerate after he saw the crash. Was he just trying to keep his gearing and cadence? Perhaps. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. But Lance could not see him up the road when he finally got back on the bike and could only assume that Ullrich had not slowed.

-- yes, after seeing it again last night. I agree. I suspect that he saw Mayo get back up right away and he assumed that all's well and that Lance was right behind. From what I saw, it was Tyler that pulled everyone aside. In fact, when he was interviewed Tyler took the credit. I quote (not verbatim) "yes, the other riders agreed with me to wait for the yellow jersey..."
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2. Regardless of whether Ullrich had or had not tried to kick a dying dog,Lance rode with Jan for quite a while before MAYO attacked. Lance responded, brought him in and the pace resumed. Mayo attacks again!! Lance follows and quickly drops him. Lance did not immediately attack a lumbering Ullrich.

-- I agree again. There was plenty of time when Lance rode with the group. And it wasn't him that attacked. He merely responded. No foul play there at all.

-- I'd like to add that the argument that the fall revitalized Lance is sort of half full, half empty. Cycling is so much about concentration. That fall could have totally broken him mentally and ruined this stage. Not everyone could have done that.
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3. If Lance had let Mayo go, so, too, would go his 20 second time bonus for first. Lance had no choice in this situation. Ullrich might have had an answer if he hadn't attacked on Tourmalet.

-- If Ullrich had it in him, he would have followed Lance and Mayo. Period.
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I lost alot of respect for Mayo when he seemingly picked up the pace before Lance could rejoin the group. I'm thus reconsidering my assessment of Euskatel's antics at the finish line.

-- I lost a little bit of respect for the 2 Euskatels. During the last climb (and even before that), they just sat behind Ullrich. Both guys were 5+ minutes behind Lance on the gc. They had nothing to gain by winning second place. After siitting on Ullrich's wheel for all of the climb they attacked to the finish line taking the valuable seconds Ullrich needed. Hey, I'm rooting for Lance and I'm glad Ullrich is behind by more seconds thanks to the Euskatel riders, but I thought it was still unnecessary.
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My 2 cents

Feel the gin
I timed it (aka beating a dead horse)atpjunkie
Jul 22, 2003 6:34 PM
was well over 1 minute 35 seconds (from time Lance and Mayo rejoined group to the attack) so group rode together at an accelerating pace for over a minute. Enough time to recoup and re up the HR.
also person who 'bagged' him appears to be a 10 or 11 year old kid in green shirt. Looks like he was behind adult and reaching through so he could see. poor kid