Jul 21, 2003 1:03 PM
|Anyone else been following the observations of Coach Carl? http://coachcarl.com/Index.html ? For the past few days he has been spouting off what a poor job USPS has done (their coaches) & how Lance is doomed. Per this idiot, today Lance was supposed to fall back to 4th place overall & 1/2 of USPS would abandon. Today not a mention of how wrong he was--just shifts blame onto Ullrich for not riding the race the way he thinks it should have been ridden. Nothing about the guts & courage of Lance. Ridiculous.|
|Yeah, I commented on his drivel in a post below...||James OCLV|
Jul 21, 2003 1:05 PM
|If Carl were my coach, I think I would start looking for another one...|
|Yeah, I commented on his drivel in a post below...||Coach Carl|
Jul 21, 2003 4:08 PM
|I looked but I couldn't find your drivel about my drivel. Besides, I probably wouldn't want to coach you anyway. Maybe that is why you would have to look for another coach. :-)|
|re: Hypocrite||Coach Carl|
Jul 21, 2003 3:33 PM
|I guess I am going to have to help with your education. You should go back to my site and read the page again. That is if you read it the first time. On today's post, I stated, "to everyone's surprise". Just in case you don't know what this phrase means, the word everyone is inclusive of myself and every other person whose comments I had heard concern Lance's chances of winning. The word surprise denotes that what I had expected did not occure. Therefore, your use of the word hypocrite is wrong and slanderous.
Second, maybe you would like to explain to everyone how I was wrong in my read in that, after USP started towing everyone, the team began to get dropped on the climbs regularly leaving Lance alone to fend for himself against the attacks of his competitors. Just in case you can't read and, therefore, did not read my site, the most fundamental principle of team tactics is to strip the domestiques from around the team leader so you can get to the team leader and break his legs with regular attacking.
Being able to repeatedly attack Lance without his team with him to cover those attacks meets that definition to a T.
Then you need to explain that, if the coaching staff did not realize they had screwed up, why did they suddenly change their team strategy following the time trial and start sending riders up the road in the break instead of just towing everyone. My question (on my site for those of you who can read) was, "Was this too late?" It definitely provided the team with more rest for the last three stages and probably is why they did not get dropped in today's stage.
Concerning blaming Ullrich for my surprise (after stating I was surprised), if you had read my posting from yesterday, you would have noticed that I pointed this mistake out yesterday BEFORE today's surprise effort. You are obviously wrong again.
Concerning me not giving credit to Lance for an outstanding effort, I stated the following: "I told you this guy doesn't know how to quit." Gee, that sounds like a guy with a lot of guts and courage, well, to an intelligent person. I also stated the following: "What a great race by Lance. He has out foxed all of his competition when he was down on form and needed brains to win in place of lacking braun. They should nick name him the Fox." along with a number of other compliments for the last week or so.
You really need to pay better attention to what you read or find some one who can understand English to read it to you. It sounds a lot to me that you are mad at me for saying what you did not want to hear. If that is the case, then that is your problem.
|Good come back||MR_GRUMPY|
Jul 21, 2003 4:12 PM
|Plus a few hundred hits on your site.|
|Speaking of the english language...||thatsmybush|
Jul 21, 2003 4:25 PM
|You say that what he wrote was slanderous, however if you had
mastered the English language you would know that when slander is written is called Libel. But you probably knew that you schmuck.
|there's just something about coach Carl's timbre...||MrDan|
Jul 21, 2003 4:35 PM
|both in his reply here, and his own website that brings back memories of all those horrendus excuses for coaches I had as a youth... you know, the real "character builders" so
inflicted upon the innocent masses...
|As I was reading his defensive tirade...||thatsmybush|
Jul 21, 2003 4:40 PM
|I thought what could be more irritating an eye full of liquid drano or having the misfortune of having him as a coach. Hmmmmm.... Still thinking....|
|As I was reading his defensive tirade...||Coach Carl|
Jul 21, 2003 5:34 PM
|Even worse, having you on my team. :-)
I know that most people using these discussion boards have never raced or coached at the professional level and really have no clue about what goes on in these races. That is why I teach these things at my site. It is a very different world from the amatuer races. Not only is the fitness level very different, but so are the strategies and sports psychology. I know, because I have coached both worlds successfully.
I respectfully take this into consideration and ask any of my detractors, have you ever successfully coached a team against even one internationally ranked pro team? My definition for successfully (just for you, not me) would be to consistently place in the top 10. I'll go easy on you.
I will put my coaching credentials along side yours any time. Where did you study your coaching and sports sciences at, UVN...University of Velonews?
How many years have you been racing bikes? And you are still category what?
When I was coaching the Los Angeles Racing Team, I trained up almost all my riders from scratch and I had only one Senior Men's rider who didn't finish in the top six or make podium for Men's cat 3 in three years or less. I had a number of amateurs who would do battle at the front of the peloton with internationally ranked pro's and teams, consistently place, and help my pro win in five years or less from scratch. How many of you have done that well?
I not only coached up from scratch one of the best Men's teams in the nation but also coached up one of the best Women's teams, Junior teams, and was developing my Master's team along with coaching winning riders on the track and MTB.
So, you think you know bike racing better than I do, prove it.
What category did you say you are after how many years or decades?
My site is set up to help people like you learn in order to improve the sport. If it upsets you, don't go there and learn. Stay stupid. Everyone else needs stupid people to beat up on in the races. You make everyone else look better than they are. On their behalf, thank you for staying stupid.
|Wow, don't know how I ever lived without you!!! (nm)||MrDan|
Jul 21, 2003 5:52 PM
|As I was reading his defensive tirade...||Spuden|
Jul 21, 2003 5:53 PM
I enjoy reading your site and find it very informative...I think the problem people have with your analysis is your superior attitude you seem to have. Continually dogging tactics used by USPS and in times past ONCE. While I have found the information about how the race is playing out quite insightful I also find that you write in a manner that seems to partronize the team directors.
Additionally I think you should own up to being wrong on occasion. On one day you talk about how Lance needs to watch Vinokorouv, or he's going to drop 4 places in GC, then today your talking about how Lance is such a tacticican. And to quote you ". You have to understand that, while that rider was gaining time on Lance, Lance was resting and saving his legs. Today, he went to the bank and got all that time back" Yet just yesterday you were saying this "Lance has run out of time with Vinokourov. He has been letting Vinokourov go up the road to save energy until the end of today's stage when he had to work to bring time back in. Vinokourov is now close enough to Lance so that, when Vinokourov attacks on the HC climb to Luz Ardiden or earlier, Lance must chase"
I understand hindsight is 20/20 but at least acknowledge you may have gotten things wrong. It only enhances your credibility when you take responsibility for incorrect predictions. I for one enjoy your analysis greatly but wish your air of superiority was a little more in check.
Jul 21, 2003 6:40 PM
|I probably was a bit over the top with my Hypocrite allegation (and the idiot bit)--you basically just laid out very succiciently what I wanted to say in a polite & lucid manner. I unfortunately don't possess these talents. Cheers.|
|I am a bit surprised that someone of your stature...||serbski|
Jul 21, 2003 5:56 PM
|...would waste valuable *coaching* time composing and then posting your fairly abusive reply. You lose big points by trotting out your litany of coaching successes/experiences in The Big Time. Hey, if you find that the someone's reply to the postings on your site is misinformed/wrong why not stick to a fact-based rebuttal rather than your pompous attack? I really enjoy your comment that "Everyone needs stupid people to beat up on in the races". *That* is real motivational coaching. While reading your diatribe I have visions of the Vic Morrow coach character in the film "Bad News Bears". Regardless of your coaching abilities and successes, if I read such an angry, macho and mean-spirited post from somebody who was my coach I would be absolutely mortified. Keep your comments in the upper echelons of cycling where you believe you belong.
|If you're such a great coach||Spoiler|
Jul 21, 2003 6:41 PM
|how come you're predictions suck? Just an honest question. My predictions have sucked, so I guess I should feel honored to be in such company.
You should focus on post-stage analysis, it's less risky.
|now maybe I'm sleep deprived||atpjunkie|
Jul 21, 2003 7:48 PM
|sorry for the late drop in but I have a newborn who makes sure I'm up at 5 AM pst to watch it live. What I've seen in every major final group before the final whittling down on the mountain stages has had at least 3 USPS riders, or 1 ahead in the break who then waits for his captain. The only other teams to have more than one rider in these final groups have been Eus. Eus. (mayo, laseika, zubeldia) CSC (Hamilton, Sastre) and Bianchi (but only in last 2 stages). So last I read, surrounding yourself with your domestiques in the mountains was 'good' tactics.
Now I'm only a Cat 4 cyclist but was a Div. 1 rower and I've only coached water Polo and basketball but I tended to use Sun Tzu's "Art of War' as a coaching tool. His first lesson 'pick your battles' , lesson 2 "allow your enemy to underestimate your strength". So following this principle I predicted to my daughter (3 weeks old) and in this post that the attack would come today (see my spat with cyclopathic). Why? The most damage can be done with the least time or stages to recoup losses. It seemed self evident to a non-cycling pro guru guy like myself. An earlier attack would have caused harder work for his team and more opportunities for counter attack. Second, LA was having poor form yet no one, even in tandem was able to drop him. Ullrich and Vino gained time but like Roche in 78 LA minimized his losses to fight the big battle and gain time leaving only the TT as the real danger. So which part of this was poor strategy? Furthermore I think LA has a thing for the 'classic stages' and likes to win on the Grande Dames of the tour.
so call me a crack addict or whatever but it seems for all the wacky circumstances of this tour, strategy has been quite good.
Jul 21, 2003 8:16 PM
|I agree totally with your post. (But you put the 7 in front of the 8 with a typo error....Roche won in '87.)
I stated a couple of days ago that Lance would keep or increase his lead in the Pyrenees and that at some point over the 4 Pyreneen stages it would be "Go time". We saw that today.
Lance Went (with a teamate at his side on the lower portion of the final ascent by the way...Ahem! Coach Carl!!!!) and nobody could stay with him.
He dealt Ullrich a major psycological blow today. Jan now knows that Lance was having problems during the first ITT and the first Pyreneen stage. Now he sees that Lance is back to, or nearly back to, full strength.
|Well stated....87 78, sheessh I need some sleep||atpjunkie|
Jul 22, 2003 6:52 PM
|thanx for the correx, that climb damn near killed him.|
Jul 22, 2003 3:51 AM
|Just wanted to call you that before "The Coach" did. Get some sleep nice analysis by the by.|
|As I was reading his defensive tirade...||James OCLV|
Jul 21, 2003 7:08 PM
First off, how do you know who you're talking to? I'm both a competitive cyclist and a USA Cycling Certified Coach. I don't claim to know everything, and I don't go around making blanket statements without the support to back them up. I just don't understand how you can write a blanket reply like this to people that you know nothing about. It shows a real lack of class on your part. If you're such a great coach, why is it that you feel that you need to tout your credentials? Who are you trying to convince, us or yourself? Do you berate your athletes in such a manor?
I would be ashamed to read this if I were one of your athletes.
Try putting your coaching credentials up against Carmichael's or Bruyneels (oh, wait, you already did this on your website). I just think that it was very disrespectful as a fellow professional to openly criticize them and their tactics. It is shear ignorance to think that you could have done better. So, tell us again - Why won't Lance win his fifth tour?
How can you go about calling everyone who doesn't agree with your opinion stupid? Do you call your athletes who question your methods stupid? I just don't understand people who make brazen statements like the ones that you made that can't back them up...
It reminds me of how ignorant people respond to logic... When you back them into a corner that they can't reason themselves out of, they inevitably resort to "Oh yeah, well, you're just... um... stupid!"
|As I was reading his defensive tirade...||mickey-mac|
Jul 21, 2003 7:09 PM
|Coach Carl's life must be like a very long and painful Saturday Night Live skit.|
|Where's you crawl out from?||Spoiler|
Jul 21, 2003 6:20 PM
|Nobody's seen you around here, somebody mentions your name, and presto! Nice humble entrance.|
Jul 21, 2003 6:47 PM
I was a bit over the top with the Hypocrite & idiot lines--my apologies. I agree 100% with what Spuden wrote below--just didn't convey it well. I do enjoy your analysis, however the air of superiority & know-it-all is a bit tiresome. While your analysis may have been correct as to how the actual events played out thru the tour, your doom & gloom predictions were depressing (though they did seem accurate for the past couple of days (I found myself shouting at the TV/Postal to quit pulling the peloton :-) ). Evidently the heart + drive of Lance cannot be underestimated....that you seemingly did so & then only paid a backhand compliment set me off. No offense....I will quible with your argument re Postals tactics--their strategy has always been to set the pace & ride everyone off (destroying themselves in the process) except Lance. That Lance was off form this year + the heat + the return/strength of Ullrich, does not mean that their tactics were wrong.
Jul 21, 2003 6:46 PM
|I have to say that I've been reading his discussions on race strategy for the past couple of days - they're very interesting.
They bring a different perspective to team strategy than that of Phil & Paul, and Bob. I'm not saying I don't like them, but having an opinion and analysis that differs from the OLN/CTS squad (Bobke often shares Chris Carmichael's approach) is great for those of us wanting to learn more about bike racing tactics & strategy.
Don't get me wrong - I like Phil & Paul & Bobke & CC, but they all say pretty much the same thing - and there are so many different ways to interpret strategies that a different perspective becomes much more useful - gives a lot more opportunities for learning.
|anyone making predictions is going to be wrong sometimes||DougSloan|
Jul 22, 2003 6:33 AM
|Anyone sticking his neck out and giving an opinion about what will happen is going to be wrong, and probably frequently. Heck, if that weren't true, I imagine one could make a bunch of money in Las Vegas (you can bet on these things). Lance's coach (or even Lance himself) doesn't even know what's going to happen, much less anyone else.
Sometimes people state things in strong terms because that's what gets people's attention. Not unusual.
Why is this a big deal?
|Its not after all this is just the internet||thatsmybush|
Jul 22, 2003 7:31 AM
|But this forum sometimes blows so much sweetness and light at everyone. Great job, congratulations on your first bike, ride, group ride, race, mountain summit. Oh don't get frustrated it will come. How do I shave a leg? That when you see someone taking it seriously and you have them on the hook you want to set it and hopefully bring it on the boat.|
Jul 22, 2003 7:37 AM
|No doubt it's fun and maybe even interesting to call someone on being wrong. There are better and worse ways of doing it, though.
|it was his response that got me||thatsmybush|
Jul 22, 2003 7:48 AM
|Pontification is not the same as expressing an opinion. If someone has something negative to say about an opinion of mine ( a common occurance ) I generally don't make blanket assertions about other peoples skill levels etc. For myself I am a self trained triathlete that places well in my age group. As an instructor of kayaking for years I learned one thing. "Never think the way you run a river is the best or only way to get down to the bottom of the rapid."|
Jul 22, 2003 8:03 AM
|The response was condescending and a bit arrogant, not to mention overly defensive. I think a simple "win some, lose some" would have been fitting.