|Did LA take advantage of Ullrich's gesture?||PdxMark|
Jul 21, 2003 12:00 PM
|We have a debate going in our office.
Here's one posiotion:
"I think that by not letting Ullrich get back to full throttle before attacking, Lance, in a real sense, took advantage of Ullrich's gesture."
Did LA take advantage of the gesture?
|No - If Ullrich could have responded, he would have...||TJeanloz|
Jul 21, 2003 12:05 PM
|If Ullrich had the strength to get up to Lance's speed he would have, and the gap would not have expanded to what it did. If this were at the finish line, maybe there would be an argument - but Ullrich had plenty of time to respond.|
|re: Did LA take advantage of Ullrich's gesture?||zero85ZEN|
Jul 21, 2003 12:05 PM
|Mayo attacked. Lance counter attacked. He didn't have any say in when Mayo would go...but he knew he needed to attack at the beginning of the climb at the steepest part.
Lance did not take advantage of Ullrich. Furthermore if things had been reversed, and Ullrich had fallen, before any attacks had been made of course, Lance would have waited till he was back to the group to attack.
It was good sportsmanship by all involved.
|1. Mayo initiated the attack.....||Stinky Hippie|
Jul 21, 2003 12:07 PM
|....and 2. Lance claims he didn't know Ullrich had waited. Frankly, I initially thought Ullrich was not waiting as he swerved around Lance and Mayo.
But seriously, is it Lance's problem that Jan can't accelerate well? Is it his problem that Jan can't descend well?
Decorum dictates you don't kick a man when he's down, but it doesn't dictate that one shouldn't exploit an opponents weakness as a rider.
Feel the gin
|There was some time when they all rode together||270bullet|
Jul 21, 2003 12:11 PM
|editing makes it look like he attacked right away. But he road with the group for a few minutes before Mayo attacked.|
|I think I recall that. Of course, I'll be watching the race...||Stinky Hippie|
Jul 21, 2003 12:52 PM
|....2 times more thhis evening to get a closer look.
Kinda strange to see everyone seemingly try to make excuses for Lance's victory. I frankly think the crash was what he needed; in fact, I'm not sure he would have won so decisively if he hadn't gone down. But, does that mean we put an asterix by his name because it took a crash for him to win?
Feel the gin
|When you watch the replay, see that Mayo had attacked...||Brooks|
Jul 21, 2003 1:35 PM
|Lance countered and Jan was falling back when the crash happened. That could well have been the decisive move and LA could have gained even more time. But, you never know....|
|re: Did LA take advantage of Ullrich's gesture?||davtnyc|
Jul 21, 2003 12:17 PM
|yes, not deliberatly but he profited from his crash.
ullrich cooled off as he waited and armstrong had his adrenaline and engine running at 100% when he rejoined the group, armstrong was then able to attack a slower moving group, it took ullrich a couple of Ks to get his tempo back by which time armstrong had one minute.
yes ullrich had time to react but you (or me) don't appreciate how difficult it is to ride at 100% for 20 minutes, drop to 90% for 3 minutes then get straight back to 100%
ullrich responded easily to LA's attack just before the crash.
|Doubt it...||James OCLV|
Jul 21, 2003 12:26 PM
|It's not like Ullrich came to a screeching hault... They were still riding hard, just not full-throttle.
It's not like they all were waiting and Lance just went bolting by at full speed, either.
The group slowed, Lance re-joined, and then Mayo attacked. The only one who could follow was Lance, and then he rode away.
It was a fair break... Ullrich would have taken the wheel if he could have.
|How difficult is it||Mel Erickson|
Jul 21, 2003 12:34 PM
|To go from 100% to 0% like Armstrong did when he crashed? I submit a crash takes ALOT more out of you than going from 100% to 90% and then back to 100%. Besides, Armstrong rode with the group for awhile before MAYO attacked. Armstrong simply responded when no one else could and then took advantage of Mayo's attack to springboard himself into the final attack. Ullrich had the same opportunity and was going the same pace as Armstrong when Mayo attacked. It really helps to have seen it. I took a late lunch and watched it on OLN. Even though there was some editing it was obvious when Mayo attacked that everyone was back to normal in the group.|
|Basque riders' lack of sportsmanship||DRAwpt|
Jul 21, 2003 1:45 PM
|The real lack of sportsmanship came from the two Euskatel riders, who could show no real profit from trying to (and succeding) outsprint Ulrich for 2nd place and the time bonus. If Jan loses by 4 or 5 seconds....|
|There's a fine line||Mel Erickson|
Jul 21, 2003 2:05 PM
|between tactics and sportsmanship. Marking someone and not helping on a climb is borderline, especially in this case. Mayo and Zubeldia were going for a high placing and to please the Basque contingent in the crowd, of which there were many. They knew they couldn't catch Armstrong so why not try for second best? Besides, Ullrich is as much of a threat to them as Armstrong. Isn't the goal to beat the other guy. These tactics may not be the most sportsmanlike but, hey, it's racing and within even the unwritten rules.|
|Basque riders' lack of sportsmanship||Spoiler|
Jul 21, 2003 2:13 PM
|Especially when they just sucked Jan's wheel all the way up the climb. If Jan hadn't paced them up, Lance would have won by minutes.|
|If I remember correctly...||Slowclimber|
Jul 21, 2003 1:45 PM
|When Lance went down he was in the beginning of an attack and was beginning to put distance between himself and Ullrich, with Mayo being the only one who could hold his wheel at the time. It also didn't appear that Ullrich could stay with Armstrong at the time.
Then Armstrong re-joined the pack for a short amount of time, Mayo attacked, Lance countered and left the field from there.
Given the amount of time that Armstrong put on all of his rivals after the crash I don't believe that any of them could have stayed with Armstrong during the original attack.
Basically Lance picked up the pace and they couldn't go with him. I know that Ullrich probably felt like he owed it to Armstrong from the 2001 tour when Lance waited for him to catch back up.
Also when you watch the footage it wasn't just Ullrich that had the pack slow down. Hamilton was there waiving his arms helping Ullrich maintain control of the pack while Armstrong caught back up with the pack.
When they regrouped the race was back on. None of them want to be given a win, they all want to earn it, hence the un-written rule of waiting for a top GC contender if he goes down (unless of course he can't get back up).
Their shouldn't be any debate here. Had Ullrich attacked at that time who's to say that Armstrong couldn't have caught him given the speed at which Armstrong was climbing. Then Ullrich would have had to deal with the rest of the Peleton and his not following cycling ediquette. That wouldn't have been pretty.
|Ullrich says no...||DASS|
Jul 21, 2003 5:05 PM
As for Ullrich, he resigned himself to the day's loss. "It's only fair that we waited for Armstrong," he said. "I don't think I lost any of my rhythm. It was nice to catch my breath. Lance was the strongest today, you have to give him credit. There's still a time trial left, so the Tour is not over."
|Do you have a link to Ullrich's quote? nm||PdxMark|
Jul 21, 2003 8:59 PM
|I second the request for link.||fine_tuner|
Jul 22, 2003 7:40 AM