|Should Lance have stopped to assist Joseba?||Iwannapodiumgirl|
Jul 15, 2003 12:12 AM
|Even non-cycling passionate people at work are talking about "that crash"!
A question that arose - was Lance unsportsman for not stopping to assist Joseba?
Some felt he should have at least stopped for a "token" amount of time to see if Joseba could remount and continue riding, and then when realising things were bad, continued on his way.
The peleton stopped for Lance when he and Heras crashed on Stage 8...
Lance stopped in the Tour two years ago when Jan ran off the road on a descent.
|re: Should Lance have stopped to assist Joseba?||Akirasho|
Jul 15, 2003 12:54 AM
|... Lance had just avoided the collision himself and was headed crosscountry... at that point, I think he was more concerned with staying upright himself... he'd have been as frugal with the brakes and steering input as he crossed that field as possible (anyone who's taken their skinny tires on an impromptu romp through the wilds knows what I'm talking about... at which point he was then probably thinking... "I can make the road"... this might have been the first place where he actively thought about going back or holding... and in my opinion, after having to portage the bike up the lip, with other riders coming by, Beloki's own Once squad (even though they tried to hold... it became obvious that the show must go on) and the gendarme that Armstrong himself narrowly missed just seconds before on the scene... and within 5K of a downhill finish that he needed to hold time on... why?
In retrospect, it's easy to see that Beloki wasn't getting up any time soon... on the fly, and on the other side of a field... it would have been hard for Armstrong to wait (overall, le Tour prohibits riders from riding back towards the peloton!) The only real assistance that Armstrong could have offered would have been on "time"... and if Beloki was gonna get up... it wouldn't have been much.
It will, however, go down as one of those epic crashes/moments in le Tour history... and we're only halfway home!
Be the bike.
|What could he have done?||spyderman|
Jul 15, 2003 9:21 AM
|His whole action was a reaction in avoidance of being taken down himself. His momentum still would've have carried him down half the field before he could stop and run back up to provide assistance. By that time the others would arrive on scene.
Besides, Lance is not a medic. All he could do is hold his hand and make jokes? Considering all of this, with millions on the line... would you stop?
|re: Should Lance have stopped to assist Joseba?||I Love Shimano|
Jul 15, 2003 1:43 AM
|NO. First of all, he was going too fast to stop and ASSIST Beloki. No way he should climb the hill just to help Beloki when other riders were there to help.
Second, the rule on waiting for crashed riders only applies to the yellow jersey.
|re: Should Lance have stopped to assist Joseba?||MountainPro|
Jul 15, 2003 1:48 AM
|Lance is not known for his sportsmanship, infact i am not a fan of him at all, but in this instance Beloki's crash gave Lance a real fright and his instinct was to go on and not lose time...yes its a shame that Lance's biggest rival is now out of the Tour but Lance wouldnt of been able to help Beloki, he was obviously seriously injured and in need of a doctor...a 'token' stop would have only lost Lance the stage and possibly the Tour and his one big chance to prove to the world that he is one of the all time great bike riders..
no one would blame him for carrying on through the field, there is a lot at stake here and Beloki would be the first to do the same if Lance crashed and he himself was going for his own fifth successive tour win...
|whoa! lance is not known for his sportsmanship?||reklar|
Jul 15, 2003 2:33 AM
|Please explain. Seems like lance is the epitome of sportsmanship. He may make a few pointed remarks but they are generally in reaction to someone else's comments...|
|Here's an explanation||wspokes|
Jul 15, 2003 4:13 AM
|Now first understand I am supporting Lance. I hope he wins the fifth...I also would like to see Tyler pull one off someday...as well as Beloki and others. There are a great deal of talent. But I will say the following...Lance is changed since his cancer. Lance was a jerk before...read the book. He admits it and proves it at times...but he is a better man now than before..
In 1992 at the Tour du Pont in Hershey Pa. I watched Lance who was a no name amateur in action. He was supposed to sign autographs for a Children's Miracle Network Cancer kids from the med center...all these kids were sitting excited and waiting...Lance was pissed because of some sponsorship problem and said aloud...I am not going over there I don't have time as he went off to pout. I thought...What an ass! I did watch many others go over and hand out water bottles and sign autographs and talk with the kids...bigger pros who were in far more demand than Lance. Gianni Bugno, Laurent Fignon to name a few...these were professional and even though they weren't slated to chat with the kids they went over and talked it up and were great. The both just proved that even when the media isn't around...they were good people.
Once again, don't get me wrong. I believe Lance is a phenomenal athlete and has changed dramatically...but I can tell you that many people that day thought...what a Jerk!
Jul 15, 2003 7:42 AM
|Wow. I hope people don't measure me by one thing I did 11 years ago. Greg LeMond threatened to beat the crap out of a bunch of camera men once after a tour stage. Is he a jerk for life? How about Zabel pushing cameras away when the crowded him after a hard sprint win - I guess he's a jerk for life now too, eh?|
|First impressions are important (nm)||TJeanloz|
Jul 15, 2003 7:58 AM
Jul 15, 2003 10:53 AM
|REad my full message...I respect the man for what he has done since his return...I stick by the idea he was and he even knew he was a jackass at times before his illness! You see a guy get pissed because he can't get a new pair of sunglasses instead of the two pairs he already has before a stage and takes it out on some sick kids with hodgekins and leukemia and I am supposed to take that lightly?? I don't think so. I took it in the sense of what an ass! and so did tons of others...thankfully some others like Jim Copeland, LA Sheriffs...Volpi, Fignon, Bugno and others came over to lighten the mood with the kids! While lance went off...there was no hurry...no time constraints...etc...I saw him that year do that and I saw him welcome people with open arms years later...after some maturity. It happened. It happens. I imagine there are a great deal of people that don't like Alexi Grewal for his behavior or Fignon for his supposed smugness...but I saw him act benevolently toward the kids and enjoy his commentary and comments...because he has been there and knows. First impressions count...
Read my comments though. I think he has come a LONG way. I always try and give benefit of the doubt.
|I think even Lance himself would admit...||MaRider|
Jul 16, 2003 8:19 AM
|that he was an arrogant pompous a$$hole before his cancer days.
But people change.
|you haven't explained it to me...||reklar|
Jul 16, 2003 12:13 AM
|You've explained that Lance was a jerk once. Everyone has done something they regret. Fine, whatever. Him being a jerk that time has very little to do with his sportsmanship however...Give me some examples of things he has done while racing that are actually unsportsmanlike at any time...I seriously doubt there are any post-cancer...he seems to have a lot of respect for honorable racing as far as I can tell...|
Jul 16, 2003 8:17 AM
|When Armstrong first came around, which I realize was before most people here were following the sport, he was openly criticized by the patrons for his finish-line celebrations which were previously not done.
There was also an incident in an early 1990's Tour of him attacking through a feed zone, and another while Indurain was taking care of some business off the back. Big Mig was none too pleased with either - I can't recall the exact year, but I could dig up the videotape.
Lance, particularly pre-cancer, was (is) no angel or great sportsman; that's a role that he's worked into.
|One can afford to be unsportsmanlike||Mel Erickson|
Jul 16, 2003 10:29 AM
|when one has no responsibility. To Lance's credit, as he has gained success and responsibility, he has become a real sportsman. He has matured. Now, if he did not mature and become a sport as he gained fame and responsibility, he would be a jerk, like Hinault.|
Jul 16, 2003 11:52 PM
|This i did not know--i knew he was sort of an all-around jerk, young, brash, etc., but unsportsmanlike too? Wow. Thanks.|
|Exactly! Ask Jan about how LA is a true sportsman...||Tig|
Jul 15, 2003 5:46 AM
|Lance didn't have to slow everyone down so that Ulrich could climb out of that creek a few years ago, but he did. Anyone who thinks that Lance could have done anything, even symbolically, to aid Beloki is absolutely clueless to the situation.|
Jul 15, 2003 3:28 AM
|I'll bet I can come up with more examples showing LA's sportsmanship than you can of him being unsportsmanlike. How about when Jan took a header into the ditch and LA soft-pedaled until he caught up. You make it sound as though LA had a choice to stop. If he could have stopped he would of. It wouldn't have been to judge Beloki's condition but rather to avoid from launching himself into the abyss.|
|re: Should Lance have stopped to assist Joseba?||Pygme|
Jul 15, 2003 6:07 AM
|Sure. What are you smoking? Lest we forget when he turned around to check on Jan Ulrich after he went head over heals.|
|C'mon, keep the posts within the realm of possibility...||Velojon|
Jul 15, 2003 3:24 AM
|It's like asking if a guy on the ground ought to try and catch a skydiver whose parachute fails to deploy. First off, it can't be done (laws of physics) and second it will only cause more injuries. I mean LA had two choices at the exact moment he came upon Beloki at almost 40mph; one was to bunny-hop him and risk killing the guy and himself, the other was to bail to the left. Stopping wasn't in anyone's bag of tricks. Even the riders at the tail end of the chase group couldn't have stopped without creating potential carnage to those following.|
|C'mon, keep the posts within the realm of possibility...||Akirasho|
Jul 15, 2003 3:42 AM
|Be the bike.|
|re: Should Lance have stopped to assist Joseba?||wspokes|
Jul 15, 2003 4:03 AM
|unless Lance is somehow a doctor and can assist Beloki...I feel there are better equipped professionals to help with severe injury. The tour is a race, The break with virtual tour possibility winners didn't know there was a accident and surely wasn't slowing or stopping...he is only 20 seconds behind vino now. if there was a stop on Lance's part...that would be a question of who is in the yellow now. When I watched Heras and Armstrong fall...I didn't see the peloton stop. they slowed and lance was up in a split second...should he have waited for heras to remount? no. Belokis teammates were very professional and stopped directly with Beloke when he went down...thats what teams are for...I don't feel lance did anything wrong. Beloki and Lance had been communicating the whole way while trying to make up time on Vino and any other breakaways. Both knew they had to do damage control. I feel it was just an unfortunate part of the sport. I wish Beloki well in recovering and I find this tour one of the most exciting in years!!|
|As others have said...||Dwayne Barry|
Jul 15, 2003 4:41 AM
|physically he couldn't stop to help Beloki, but I can't recall ever seeing a rider stop to help a rider from another team who has crashed.
It would be breaking the unwritten rule about not attacking a rival who has crashed, except a rival (Vinokourov) was up the road. No one in the front group could afford to lose time to him, so they rode to limit his gains. Beloki, even if he got back up, was just SOL because of Vinokourov being up the road and would certainly have understood that the front group would have had to keep the pressure on.
|what kind of idiot are you||YoungRcR|
Jul 15, 2003 5:13 AM
|that has got to be the dumbest question posted in a while.
This board is annoying, most of the posters get names mixed up, and clearly dont know much about bike racing tactics.
The idiot that posted about USPS lettin armstrong down... did you hear the man? have you read other riders journals and listened to the commentators? All they could do is praise USPS for obliterating the field the entire day.
Stop posting so many "what ifs" or "why didnt"... its pointless, and the speculation about Tylers injury is ridiculous, we aint gonna know till the tour is over and i seriously doubt they can pulloff faking x-rays, press conferences, wearin that very uncomfortable looking bandage etc..
|How long have you been racing and watching...||Dwayne Barry|
Jul 15, 2003 5:28 AM
|pro-bike racing? Of course, Armstrong would have liked to have a team mate there. That is just one of the critical situations when a team mate could have been key. I was talking about a specific situation not the whole race, moron. Armstrong's domestiques couldn't contain Vino's attack, forcing Armstrong to go after him, nor did they catch-up on the descent to help on the run-in to the finish. I guess you think Armstrong was happy being isolated there?|
|How long have you been racing and watching...||YoungRcR|
Jul 15, 2003 7:35 AM
|Of course he would have liked to had a teamate, but in no way did his team let him down, his team has done a great job so far, these guys all sacrifice themselves and at some point you have to expect the team leader, the man who wants to win the tour, to come out and do some work to show that he is the man to win it.
I dont think Lance is too concerned with Vino anyway. Sure he has had success in 1 day and shorter stage races, but this race is 3 weeks, the pyrenees and the upcoming time trial are going to decide this race, not the alpes, the alps came way too early in the race for them to be decisive. Lance is comfortable, and very confident in his team, just wait and see.
|re: Should Lance have stopped to assist Joseba?||taar44|
Jul 15, 2003 5:39 AM
|I don't think he had the time to think about it (nm)||ColnagoFE|
Jul 15, 2003 6:47 AM
|No, and big difference||noveread|
Jul 15, 2003 1:43 PM
|No, Lance should not have stopped and waited.
First, on Stage 8 the peloton did not stop. They turned off the gas though, not that it was really on anyway at that point. The race was not "on" at that point. But did anyone else notice ONCE when Lance crashed? From the Helicopter shot, you could see many ONCE riders massing in the front after Lance was down. Getting ready to push the pace maybe? That would be typical of an ONCE attack.
Two years ago, when Jan crashed, Lance did NOT stop, he didn't press the attack, but he did not stop. Beloki did press the attack and then Lance sat on his wheel. Also remember in that stage that after Jan rejoined, he went back to his team car for a feed or drink or whatever, and when he did, Beloki attacked again. Typical of ONCE tactics.
No, Lance should not have stopped for Beloki. They were inside 5k to go to the finish, the race was most definitely "ON." Bad luck for Beloki, but no, Lance should not have stopped.
The Empty Wrapper
|also, he didn't think Beloki crashed that bad||weiwentg|
Jul 15, 2003 3:09 PM
|in his interviews, Lance said he initially thought Beloki didn't go down that bad and would be back up the road soon. of course he was wrong, but how can you tell at 40 miles an hour? he was probably glad enough to get through that field in one piece.|
|This was a question asked by non-cycling workmates..||Iwannapodiumgirl|
Jul 15, 2003 3:45 PM
|comparing it to sports they are familar with, like rugby.
But is good to see that my sanity, level of intelligence and preferred smoking preference have all been questioned...
Also refreshing to see that the Tour, and this Board in particular, attracts so many experts, knowledgeable in every area of cycling.