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Tactics against Lance...(24 posts)

Tactics against Lance...funknuggets
Jul 14, 2003 11:01 AM
Ok, it seems blatently obvious that the other climbers are teaming up against Lance in the mtns. Can I ask why? Look at Beloki and Tyler whacking away at Armstrong when Mayo or Vinko, or Virenque just ride away. What the heck? So now look, Lance is still in first and now Vinko is in second, ahead of them in the GC. When if they would have worked together, they may be in 2nd or know? Im not sure I get it. Are Ullrich and Hamilton... and now Mayo... waiting to whack Vinko in the TT? Are they thinking they can get him there or what? I just dont understand that if they were seriously worried about GC standings... why they would have let Vinko get away. He was my pick to finish 3rd overall behind Lance and Beloki. Bizarre. It is almost like they are saying, I cant win, but at least I can try and beat Lance. Instead of trying to work together to run the leader down, they try and isolate Lance and have him cover every move as he tries to limit losses. It is goofy and frustrating.

re: Tactics against Lance...Mike M
Jul 14, 2003 11:26 AM
Lance indicated in a quote off Yahoo today that he did not think Vinko was a rival, but now he is. Beloki and Armstrong were only 10 seconds down on him before the crash. It is likely they would have caught him. At least they were trying to catch him. I think the difference this year is there are so many riders still close to Armstrong and Lance was not able to dominate yesterday like he has in the past. He let Mayo and Viko go yesterday because they were way down in the classification. However, today they started to chase. He just makes sure his competition is in check.

I wonder about Mayo, though. This guy looks like he can stick with Armstrong all the way through. If he has a good TT, watch out. We will have a doozey.
re: not rival? right..cyclopathic
Jul 14, 2003 11:52 AM
Vinokurov dropped him on Alpe d'Huez, only 1:20 behind, attacked on every mnt stage, beat him in Amstel Gold.. My guess he just didn't have legs after yesterday.
I wouldn't say that he dropped him...James OCLV
Jul 14, 2003 12:07 PM
I don't think that anyone "dropped" Lance on Alpe d'Huez. A "drop" is when you are attacked and unable to respond. The difference is that yesterday, Lance just chose not to respond.
a drop......african
Jul 14, 2003 12:39 PM
or a drop is when you don't respond.......
emm.... not exactly...James OCLV
Jul 14, 2003 12:48 PM
I'd have to disagree with that. A drop is when you can't respond, or when the pace quickens you can't hold the wheel in front of you. You are dropped when someone rides away from you and you physically can't respond.

Lance dropped Ullrich on L'Alpe d'Huez in 2001. He dropped Pantani on Hautacam in 2000. Verenque didn't drop Lance on Stage 7, just as Mayo didn't drop him yesterday...
do you think Lance COULD answer Mayo? nmcyclopathic
Jul 14, 2003 12:54 PM
Hmm... Now that's a good question.James OCLV
Jul 14, 2003 1:00 PM
And one that will never get answered (well, maybe in the Pyrenees). My gut tells me that he could have - but at what cost? Say that he did counter Mayo, who at the time wasn't that high up in the GC. He risked dragging Beloki with him, who is a threat to the GC. Say Lance wastes himself trying to reel in Mayo, and when he does, Beloki attacks... Now he's in real trouble. Besides, I think that Mayo really respects Lance, and it would have been a slap in the face to chase him down when he wasn't a threat...
btw how long did it take Mayo to climb?cyclopathic
Jul 14, 2003 1:20 PM
he was really flying
btw how long did it take Mayo to climb?James OCLV
Jul 14, 2003 5:59 PM
Yeah, but I remember reading that he was still 1 mph slower than Armstrong in 2001 on the same climb.
I agree but I think...Dwayne Barry
Jul 14, 2003 12:56 PM
the fact that Lance didn't respond to Mayo and crush everyone is definitely a sign he is not on the form he has been on in past TdFs (not that that means he won't end up winning or come better in the Pyrenees).
Either that, orMel Erickson
Jul 14, 2003 1:34 PM
He's riding a different tactical race and saving his domination for the Pyrenees. I think Lance correctly determined that he would be attacked relentlessly in the Alps to try and crack him. His goal may be to do just enough to keep everyone at bay. One thing to remember, the race is only a little over a third done but over half the total miles have been raced. Why burn yourself out over these grueling Alps stages? Wait for the ITT, see how you do and attack, if necessary, on shorter but more intense mountain stages in the Pyrenees. We'll just have to wait and see. I couldn't help notice how calm he was in an interview after l'Alpe Duez. He didn't seem tired or overly concerned. Could be just an extended feint, like last year when he pretended to be done in and then took off like a scalded dog.
perfect point ...sacheson
Jul 14, 2003 2:04 PM
... one I had not considered.

"the race is only a little over a third done but over half the total miles have been raced"

I'm thinking Armstrong is more calculated this year.
everyone was saying how they were gonna attack lancerufus
Jul 14, 2003 2:16 PM
and i think he wanted to see what they were gonna do. if he had his team chase down every attack, he'd run the risk of wearing them out before the final week of the tour. so he stayed back, rode tempo when they had to, backed off when they didn't need to ride so hard.

lance didn't see vino as a threat, and so he was allowed to get away. but whenever anyone he viewed as a threat took off, like beloki or hamilton, he was there to counter their moves. if mayo had been closer on time, he may have made more of an effort to reel him in, but he wasn't. he was never put in difficulty, he caught back on to everyone fairly easily, and he still got the yellow jersey. i addition, he got a look at who was gonna go, and how strong they were. now the list of contenders is a bit smaller.

i'm sure he feels he can beat vino and mayo in the time trials, but i'm sure he'll also now keep a closer eye on them in the mountains, and fight to stay with them if they go again, as he will with ulrich. but ulrich, if he truly does have form, and hasn't spent his strength already, should still be the main threat.
Jul 14, 2003 4:07 PM
letting someone go who is not a threat is not being 'dropped'
it's called losing a battle to win the war.
some people just don't understand
Jul 14, 2003 4:26 PM
the last 2 guys who tried to win every stage were Merckx and Hinault. LA rides more like Big Mig, measures his moves to make the greatest effect. He said he'd lose 30 seconds to maintain a team member, so I think it's biz as usual.
i didn't entirely understand...reklar
Jul 15, 2003 2:40 AM
...what he meant by "to maintain a team member"...meaning not to drop them or not to have them miss the time deadline of the tour?
maintain a team member.atpjunkie
Jul 15, 2003 5:58 PM
to defend a GC lead it is up to that team to control pace, reel in breaks that are threats (unlike todays) and keep pace high enough in the early part of a mountain stage no one can attack. You will watch the GC leaders team is always at the front (unless a sprint finish day when a Sprint team will assume responsibility). The 'flat specialists' in USPS terms Landis, Padrnos, Hugo Pena and Ekimov do all the pacework, Hincapie takes some pulls but is responsible for first pull up the last climb. this allows Chechu, Heras and Betran to save themselves for final assault which either controls tempo or provides springboard for GC leader (Lance).
This is why to win GC you need a great team. Watch as other teams try to isolate the GC leader and will attack on climbs (ie..Tyler and Beloki in the Alps). So it is very hard to defend the yellow for 2 weeks as it forces your team to 'work' everyday. this can burn out your domestiques and make you more vulnerable to attack. so you can't drive your dogs into the ground early and the layout of this tour, with the Alps early, some flats a TT and then 4 days in the Pyrenees USPS has to save their riders as best a they can. The tour will be decided during the TT and the 4 days in the Pyrenees which is why the conservative tactics so far.
still not sure i get it...reklar
Jul 16, 2003 12:01 AM
I understand all of what you said, but I still didn't know what he meant when he said he would rather lose 2 minutes and "maintain" a team member. Does that mean not burn him out? Does it mean, not lose him to the time cutoff? Sorry, I'm probably being a bit dense here...
burn them outatpjunkie
Jul 17, 2003 5:34 PM
so they are of no use the next day(s). go ride a long ride in a group taking no pulls at the front, then do the same ride doing constant pulls. Do them on consecutive Saturdays. On the following Sunday(s) go for a long solo ride. Then compare your freshness from each ride. USPS has to defend the yellow for 2 weeks, that's a long haul and a lot to ask of the domestiques. The last 2 days have been good, they got to 'rest' if you can call it that.
Well...Dwayne Barry
Jul 14, 2003 12:53 PM
I think bike racing is all about the motivation and the ability to do work. It was Hennie Kuiper who said "bike racing is licking your rivals plate clean before starting on your own."
Other riders have Armstrong at a disadvantage tactically because it's his race to lose. So you make him (and Postal) do the work to not lose the race and then try to take advantage of him. But riders will want to defend their second or third place, team classification, keep it together for a sprint, etc. So it's not like Postal will be totally isolated no matter how much talk there is of a combine against Armstrong.
Jul 14, 2003 12:57 PM
eliminate competition, and who is first on your list?
re: Tactics against Lance...ngl
Jul 14, 2003 1:20 PM
I think Lance has to play a very tactical race this year to ensure the 5th title ( if he is a little down in power). His smart statage might be to let Mayo win a stage ( and conceed a couple of minutes while keeping everyone else in check), then let Beloki, Tyler, or Viko. This way Lance will still win overall.
re: Tactics against sogno
Jul 14, 2003 11:14 PM
Regardless, Mayo "dropped" LA on the Galibier in the Dauphine Libere.