|Does anyone like Rumas's Style?(spoiler)||QUiTSPiNiNArOuND|
May 24, 2003 3:01 PM
All i see him doing holding wheels, not making any waves. He doesn't attack or anything. From what i see, he is always on somebody's wheel, and then he tries to win the sprint at the end, I just see him like a leech. That's just my opinion, what do you guys think?
P.S. He can still TT fairly well
|Understand it ------ Not sure I like it||Walter|
May 25, 2003 4:50 AM
|It's a pro race and the idea is to win. In that regard it's the other rider's obligation to ride him off their wheel, if they can. Most probably can't as he is a strong rider. His last TT in last year's Tour where he finished very high despite defective bars was impressive. Despite that spectators, including myself, will always love the attackers even if most of them fail.
Of course there's a cloud over Rumsas too. I like to give riders who test clean at least the benefit of a doubt but the deal with his wife was bizarre if nothing else.
|re: you have to give him a credit||cyclopathic|
May 27, 2003 4:26 AM
|he knows what wheel to latch on to and he makes no mistake. Like it or not he will finish 4th or even 3rd if Popovitch screws up.|
|By your logic, Armstrong gets on Heras' wheel||elviento|
May 27, 2003 7:33 AM
|or Chechu's wheel until 5 miles to go on mountain top finishes. So he is a leech most of the time too, right?
So is Cipo who shines in the last 100-150 yards of a race too.
It's what the race is about, unless you are Merckx.
|By your logic, Armstrong gets on Heras' wheel||BAi9302010|
May 27, 2003 9:39 AM
|Armstrong doesn't need Heras though except when he's not at his best. Ventoux and Alpe d'huez come to mind.|
|Ventoux? Alpe d'Huez??||cyclopathic|
May 29, 2003 4:10 AM
|if I recall Alpe d'Huez was started by Heras' atack with LA sitting in and then taking off. So was Ventoux last year Herras pulled up most of the way. What's your point?|
|Ventoux? Alpe d'Huez??||atpjunkie|
May 29, 2003 6:27 PM
|I don't think this question was directed to me but after setting tempo for LA on the second attack by LA on Beloki, Heras sat on Beloki and then had a chance to drop for the stage win but couldn't do it. LA 'broke' Beloki with attack, then was waiting for Heras, hoping Heras could gap and then give RH a much deserved stage win. When all RH could do was drag Beloki up Mtn LA then re -accelerrated away.|
|Ventoux? Alpe d'Huez??||cyclopathic|
May 30, 2003 7:50 AM
|When Roberto went Beloki started fighting back and Bryunel ordered to wait. BTW it wasn't on Ventoux. On Ventoux Virenque was far ahead and neither LA or Heras stood a chance to catch him.
On Alpe d'Huez in '01 Heras rode tour with knee problem, and all he could manage was 2km attack which killed Ulrich he had no legs to answer second attack.
|correct on locale. my bad||atpjunkie|
May 30, 2003 12:22 PM
|Yes, Beloki started fighting back and RH couldn't drop so Bruyneel was forced to change plan. Original plan was to get Heras the stage as payback for the day before. They couldn't have RH drag Beloki back to LA, that's why LA took off, RH didn''t have it in him.
RE: Virenque. was aware of it. LA still almost made up 7 minute gap and Virenque was no GC threat. His famous Bonk is the only time he lost GC time to rivals in his victories. He's taken almost every 'classic' mountain finish or came close 2nd (pantani). I'm no huge LA fanatic but I don't understand how people can diss his climbing.
|which climb I was referring to||atpjunkie|
May 30, 2003 12:31 PM
|LaMongie and the day after. when LA went 2 for 2 in the Pyrennes.
Roberto was supposed to get day #2.
|Plateau de Beille?||cyclopathic|
Jun 2, 2003 4:02 AM
|Heras could and did drop Beloki at finish for 2nd. The reason Bruynel ordered Roberto to wait LA had only 1min advantage over Joseba at stage start and he made up only 1min on de Beille. Heras could easily drag him up for another 15-20sec, that and time bonus.
Noone is hissing on LA climbing ability. He is the best all arounder. But he isn't pure climber. I'd bet we'll see Simoni drop him in a few weeks.
|Plateau de Beille?||atpjunkie|
Jun 2, 2003 10:39 AM
|yes but the paln was to get RH the stage. After LA dropped Joseba, Beloki was forced to chase in hopes he would crack while Heras sat on. LA dropped his pace once a lead was established, Beloki started to crack RH tried to drop and bridge but couldn't.
I know he isn't a pure climber, but he's beaten the pure climbers on almost every 'classic' pure climbers climb. Hautacam, Alpe d' Huez (he could have won 2x but gave one to Pantani) etc...The only time he loses to a pure climber is if they are no GC threat. (ie...Laiseka in Pyrennes 2001) and even Virenques victory (Ventoux) where after spotting him about 7 minutes he almost caught him. So he's not a 'pure climber', but he wins the pure climbs. Barring the bonk, he's never lost time to anyone who matters. If Simoni's a threat, I don't see it happening. Besides it will be hard to hold form for 2 Grand Tours.
|another locale 'my bad'||atpjunkie|
Jun 2, 2003 11:07 AM
|sorry am seriously sleep deprived. I think LA's gift to PAnatni was on Ventoux. Brain isn't functioning, sorry|
|re: get some sleep man :)||cyclopathic|
Jun 6, 2003 9:29 AM
|yeah Ventoux is what started Pantani/LA feud. Not the gift but LA going and saying it to press. I watched re-runs and it doesn't really look like a gift. Yes LA looked stronger, but Pantani did beat him at finish line sprint and we all know LA cannot sprint for peanuts. Very similar to Garzelli/Simoni duel on first Giro climb this year.
I do not know what was going on through LA head on Ventoux but he either couldn't drop Marco or haven't risked to. He didn't need stage for GC, and since Pantani was 10min+ behind, he didn't care much if he dragged him. If he wanted the stage he shouldn't have dragged him to finish line, for sure.
Now, going to press and telling you gave away stage which you didn't have balls to take /pun intended/, that is something..
|re: get some sleep man :)||atpjunkie|
Jun 9, 2003 11:34 AM
|watch that stage again. after Marco makes his break LA sits with group. after no one in group counters LA goes off and easily catches Pantani. (Much like he easily gained, but did not catch Virenque on Ventoux). He ate Pantani's gap like a light snack and then 'backed' his cadence off. I think if he could make that time easily he could have finished it off. MArco needed a boost after all the scandal and IMHO LAnce did give it to him, it;s how it looked to me, much as Simoni gave that stage this year to Frigo. Granted Frigo could beat Simoni on a flatter uphill sprint (as that stage was) but had Simoni (or Lance) turned the screws a little harder a few k from finish they both would have had different outcomes. GC leaders commonly use another rider to pace with and to put time on their rivals, the return is to let them take the stage.|
Jun 12, 2003 3:23 AM
|that Simoni didn't go out to press and said "I could f*ck Frigo but I gave it to him 'cause he's having such hard time to ride"
No doubt LA could squeeze Marco, but he didn't; he didn't b/c Pantani was 10min behind and riding with him LA was still making time on Ulrich. He was more concern with saving energy then philanthropy, IMHO. Once he dragged him to finish line that was it. And calling a "gift" what you haven't had balls to take is an insult noone even Pantani deserves.
Jun 12, 2003 4:36 PM
|but Lance's comment came after Pantani's. Pantani wasn't the least bit gracious in his post victory interview which is why LA not only called it a 'gift' but referred to him by his true nickname "elefantino".
I don't think it was a question of 'balls to take". LA is actually quite the sportsman, look what he did for Jan when he crashed. waited and then rode with him to the top and finished behind. He did the same with Beloki on a climb last year, neither were for a win but he didn't feel the need to insult his rivals, he allowed them over the line first but rode the wheel so he lost no time. The finish bonus Beloki got gave him a time bonus over Rumsas again which shows it's not a 'balls to take" issue with Lance.
It was Pantani's ego and lack of graciousness that caused all of this, he needed a win to help his drug riddled comeback. IMHO he showed no respect for the Patron and LA called it as it was. If the 2 ever are in a situation similar to that, I'll call it now LA will give no quarter and elefantino will suffer. So IMHO MP deserved what he got, he's still under 'house arrest" for his drug convictions, he should have been stripped of his TdF/Giro double and is lucky to still have UCI license. I'm no LA superfan but I agree with Bob Roll.
from his Giro reports
Pantani is back! What a disaster for the sport.
When Pantani crashed in Milano-Turino a few years ago he was found to have a hematocrit of over 60%. How is it possible to have such a high hematocrit after a long season of bike racing at the highest level?
In 1999, while only a few days from the end of the Giro, Pantani was thrown out of the race for too high hematocrit, while leading the race in the pink jersey. How does anyone rid the whole Grio d'Italia and come to the end of three weeks with a hematocrit of over 50%?
In the 2001 Giro, Pantani quit the race after police found doping products in his hotel room during the infamous San Remo drug raids. He was convicted of sporting fraud and is now serving a suspended prison term.
Now Pantani has just done a great ride on the slopes of the Zoncolan at the Giro and the hypocrisy rises like slaughterhouse stench.
Pantani has lots of fans and I was an unabashed admirer of the climber from the east coast of Cantral Italy. He won the Giro and Tour double in 1998 and it has been one doping scandal after another ever since.
Allowing Marco Pantani to continue in the sport sends a very disturbing message to our children. If you are a doper, you are free to continue racing bikes.
Jun 12, 2003 6:55 PM
|check the exchange between LA and Iban Mayo in the post race of the Dauphine today. This is what Pantani lacked.|
|stop. wait. roll back||cyclopathic|
Jun 13, 2003 6:00 AM
|LA is a patron? in '00??
I am not getting into whole MP doping history, 'nough said, amen. Just to point out LA is in the same boat (Ferrari, '00 tapes, etc), he just hasn't been caught.
Most important MP being a dope doesn't make LA right. Sportsman? he is as much arrogant a$$ as in pre-cancer; he just hides it better with age. And yes he waited for Ulrich and Kevin b/c he knew he can drop him, but to of them would make him work harder. Good tactical choice. And it was gracious to give Jan stage win, but it was also a good investment in peloton. Indurain knew it well and used it; he finished second far more times then first.
|yes they are all arrogant. I think it comes with the territory..||atpjunkie|
Jun 13, 2003 9:55 AM
|except Big Mig. A gentelman and a monster. and used Peloton the best.
I consider LA patron in Y2k as he was
A) defending champ
B) leading the race
C) he was dictating race
maybe he hasn't been caught, that's all speculation, but far diff. than being caught multiple times. There was no tactical advantage sitting up for Jan, they could have pressed on but they all sat up.
personally I'm a Flanderian Classics guy so this doesn't really matter that to me. I miss Domo Farm Frites, I guess Lotto Domo has to suffice.
|It a good strategy for finishing 2nd or 3rd||Spoiler|
May 27, 2003 12:10 PM
|It's a smart way to race if you aren't talented enough to attack and win. It's kind of a vulture/buzzard role. You hang out, following wheels, but following wheels consistently. This is made easier if there's a dominant leader like Lance or Simoni. There will be a couple of suckers who will try to challenge them, and get burned trying.
There's a chance that if the leaders crash or get busted for dope, the lead falls into your lap. Otherwise, you get second or third and a contract extension.
For some riders, winning isn't everything, having the opportunity to ride is. So they do what they have to do to retain a job.
|Isn't Rumsas' strategy the same one...||Dwayne Barry|
May 27, 2003 12:42 PM
|that Indurain used to great effect? He was just a superior TTist to everyone else whereas Rumsas is a good one but not that good.|
|Isn't Rumsas' strategy the same one...||atpjunkie|
May 27, 2003 7:40 PM
|very similar to Big Mig, Jaques Anquetil, etc... It's also the one Tyler employed in the Tour of Romandie. don't make waves, stay close, don't lose too much time in the mountains and then pounce in the TT. People don't see you as much of a threat then and don't attack you as viciously. Polidor dropped J.A. in one mountain stage and then slowed a bit, JA was able to stay close enough to still win in the TT. Was it Roche who did this as well?|
|Isn't Rumsas' strategy the same one...||BAi9302010|
May 28, 2003 2:47 PM
|Jan Ullrich rides like this too|
May 28, 2003 6:08 AM
|that's how Joop Zoetemelk rode cuz he could never beat Merckx or Hinault. six 2nd's and 1 1st (1980)in the Tour.|
May 28, 2003 1:13 PM
|true, and what a competitor. never quit, was just undergunned. glad he got one, would have been a drag to always be a bridesmaid. Poor Poulidor.|| |