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So is Oscar S. going to make it through this race?(25 posts)

So is Oscar S. going to make it through this race?Sintesi
Sep 17, 2002 12:54 PM
He abandoned both the TdF and the Dauphine Libere this year due to stomach ailments. The guy couldn't eat properly.

Another thing: is Aitor G. going to ride for him in the upcomeing mountain stages? Or is it every man for themselves? I see this as possibly exploitable for Heras if Rubiera can find his legs again.

What think ye?
re: So is Oscar S. going to make it through this race?tao
Sep 17, 2002 1:36 PM
I'm always a little skeptical of the whole stomach ailment thing. Certainly the amount of stress their bodies are under and the sheer volume of food they eat causes problems. But how come riders always seem to have a bad day and then retire the next day after stomach problems the night before? Pure coincidence?

I don't see Kelme working together, Botero and Sevilla never seem to help each very often and neither did Escartin and Botero. Maybe Aitor and Oscar will but their comments so far don't seem to indicate as much.

I hope Rubiera finds his missing legs although Christian is doing an amazing job so far supporting Roberto! Hopefully he can get through a whole tour unscathed and get the monkey off his back so we can see him in the Tour next year.
re: So is Oscar S. going to make it through this race?atpjunkie
Sep 17, 2002 6:16 PM
IMHO Kelme will explode from in fighting. I think Roberto and Joseba have the best chance to exploit this. Oscar improved his TTing so ya never know but Aitor is looking for a new contract and a Vuelta win would increase his value. I think Botero will do his own thing as well, lotsa talent on that team but not much of a "team". Yes Christian has been rocking, hope he keeps it up. Speaking of USPS was riding down here in San Diego last week and who should I run into on the road? Floyd Landis in full regalia. He was training for the SF GP, was awfully cool to share the road.
yeah rightmr_spin
Sep 18, 2002 10:37 AM
Kelme will explode from infighting? Based on what? It didn't happen last year. It hasn't ever happened that I'm aware of. Give me one sign, one bit of evidence that there are any political problems on the Kelme squad and maybe I'll take you seriously.

If Aitor wants a contract for next year from anyone, the best way to get it is to work his ass off for Sevilla, not try to introduce chaos. This is a team sport. Why would you hire a guy who can't follow orders and won't support the designated leader? And what does he have to prove anyway? Everyone knows he has talent, with two Giro and two Vuelta wins this year alone.
yeah rightatpjunkie
Sep 18, 2002 3:20 PM
political problems...Kelme hasn't signed Aitor (yet and most likely won't) and Vuelta Champ looks better on your resume than "helper". If Aitor has a chance to win he will attack, otherwise he'll serve Sevilla. What's Kelme going to do fire him? Evidence of this happening Hinault / Lemond and the split it caused in La Vie Clare during Lemonds first TdF victory. "Team" spirit gets chucked out the window when dealing with big egos and big races.
Prove, A.G. wants to be a tour leader, GC captain, yes he's done quite well with stage wins but he wants the big spot and the $$ that accompanies it. Wouldn't Kelme have resigned him if he was just a domestique / lieutenant with the ability to take stages? They have Sevilla so that is why IMHO I forsee some chaos on that team.
yeah rightmr_spin
Sep 19, 2002 8:39 AM
Kelme was having big money problems this year, and Aitor would naturally want a big raise. If Kelme doesn't want more money problems next year, they are better off not signing him. Plus having Vuelta champ on your resume because you attacked your own team leader is not something to be proud of. It might get him a spot on a Division II team that wants to upgrade, but I doubt a Division I team would take him as a GC leader.

As for Aitor being the Vuelta champ, if I were the team director and he gave any hint of attacking Sevilla, I would pull him from the race. He is welcome to second place if he can keep it, but Sevilla is the man unless he cracks.

There's no comparison here to the Hinault/Lemond situation. Hinault was the returning champion who wanted a record sixth win, while Lemond was the designated champion who had given Hinault his fifth win and been promised support the next year in return. That's a level of politics a universe removed from whatever is going on at Kelme (which we can only pretend to know).
I don't think AGWayne
Sep 19, 2002 9:31 AM
will attack Sevilla to go for the GC win because he doesn't have to! He's just got to be close enough that he can go for it in the final TT, and no one will begrudge him if he gets it that way. Even if Sevilla attacks to get time in the mountains, and Aitor has the legs, he will cover whoever leads the chase and probably lose very little time.
An interesting scenario would be if Sevilla drops everybody on one of mountain top finishes and Aitor has the legs to drop whoever is chasing. But then again he was just going for 2nd right, just wanted to make sure Kelme ended up 1-2 on the podium? He's just not got to blatant about it and he can still probably leave himself with a chance at 1st. Then again it all becomes moot if he gets dropped on Sunday!
I don't think AGatpjunkie
Sep 19, 2002 11:05 AM
points are well made. (Both of ya). Even w/out financial trouble Kelme would still have to dump A.G. or let him go. IMHO there are just too many bulls in the pen.
AG is almost certainly...Wayne
Sep 19, 2002 11:17 AM
going to another team next year, but it would still be better for Kelme to win with him than to lose the race. AG has already shown he could potentially win a GT and that will get him a great contract. I think if he blatantly attacked Sevilla it could only hurt his contract since it would show that he doesn't listen and possibly can't get on with his team-mates.
AG is almost certainly...atpjunkie
Sep 19, 2002 11:55 AM
if you are a div 1 or 2 team and you are looking for a GC honch (and not a lieutenant) being an aggressive, ego filled "I'm going to win it all" guy isn't going to hurt your cred's. That ego is what you look for in a Tour contender. You build "listeners" around him. It's like when USPS didn't renew Julich. He just mentioned he would attack to take a stage if he had the opp. and that showed he wasn't 100% behind the program. He went to a lucrative contract to Cofidis who didn't care about his "attitude" who put him as their GC honch, took a 3rd in the TdF and now has been demoted to Lieutenant (first to Credit Ag now Telekom). These companies want winners period, it's good advertising and this is all about business.
Well, I don't think...Wayne
Sep 19, 2002 12:11 PM
the USPS model or attitude is the standard in Europe. Tauler was in a break all day today and not just sitting on, he hung on 'til 2km to go. Kelme certainly gave him his freedom and didn't worry about him burning himself out so he can't do his domestique work in the coming days, that wouldn't happen on Postal.
If it was me doing the hiring I'd be less inclined to hire someone who would backstab his team-mates, etc.
There's killer instinct and then there's not respecting the way the game is played. Attacking the designated team leader is bad form, all-around. Maybe Belda will send him on the attack though, he's far more crafty than Sainz and I don't think Kelme has the "it's Lance or nobody attitude".
Well, I don't think...atpjunkie
Sep 19, 2002 12:17 PM
agreed on bad form, trust me I'm not trying to argue that point. Cofidis is as euro as they get and they had no trouble signing Bobby. It will hurt A.G. if he wants to be a lietenant, it won't if he's a leader
Tauler isn't a threat to Sevilla's GC andatpjunkie
Sep 19, 2002 12:22 PM
he doesn't need help on the flats.
I was just using...Wayne
Sep 19, 2002 12:31 PM
Tauler as proof that Kelme (and by ext. not all Euro teams) play by USPS rule of one leader and 100% dedication to him.

Gotta disagree about it not being risky potentially burning out Tauler, the peloton has split on multiple days multiple times on the flat in the crosswinds, and that's where you need a guy like Tauler. He's been strong in the mountains too, kind of doing the Hincapie role.
I was just using...atpjunkie
Sep 19, 2002 1:08 PM
hold on now. Taulers move was a "team" move. He 'marked' a breakaway for his leader, sat on the wheel of the break not helping a bit. (which in turn put's no threat to burning him out). He only attacked after the break started to fizzle, was 8km from the finish and no threat to his leader whatsover. The break (and Tauler) was eaten by the Peloton. He did a fine domestiques duty and almost took a stage as well.
So Kelme was "playing by typical team rules".
Tauler will be fine, 8k ain't gonna hurt him.
Can't agree...Wayne
Sep 20, 2002 3:55 AM
The sprinter's teams were always going to try to control that stage since it's one of the few ones left that they have a shot at. No need for Kelme to police the break, and I think Tauler did a bit more than just sitting on.
Sevilla's quote on the day, "We have given Toni Tauler freedom to try to play a few of his tricks, because he has deserved it." That doesn't sound like a man working under team orders.
AG is almost certainly...atpjunkie
Sep 19, 2002 12:15 PM
if you are a div 1 or 2 team and you are looking for a GC honch (and not a lieutenant) being an aggressive, ego filled "I'm going to win it all" guy isn't going to hurt your cred's. That ego is what you look for in a Tour contender. You build "listeners" around him. It's like when USPS didn't renew Julich. He just mentioned he would attack to take a stage if he had the opp. and that showed he wasn't 100% behind the program. He went to a lucrative contract to Cofidis who didn't care about his "attitude" who put him as their GC honch, took a 3rd in the TdF and now has been demoted to Lieutenant (first to Credit Ag now Telekom). These companies want winners period, it's good advertising and this is all about business.
No way will A.G...Wayne
Sep 18, 2002 3:26 AM
ride for Sevilla. They will both be protected riders. Kelme has had no shortage of domestiques at the front end of the race so far so it's not looking like they'll end up with their two leaders isolated in the mountains. The other GC contenders will have to attack these two guys and they will both have to follow so if one or the other's legs give out they will get separated on GC without either one attacking the other.
It would make it very interesting though if either one decided or was told to attack the race.
Tough to beat...Spunout
Sep 18, 2002 11:18 AM
Two guys riding together marking Heras. Sevilla and Gonazles would duke it out on the final day TT. That would be the boring version of the Vuelta.

Exciting Version: Only thing needed is for Roberto to attack the Angrilu and try to crack either (or both) on the climb. Maybe ONCE will come back strong, maybe Euskatel too.
I suspect...Wayne
Sep 18, 2002 11:37 AM
they will wait for Heras or Mayo maybe even Beloki to attack on the Angliru and Sevilla will be able to cover it and AG won't and will lose some time.
There are also a couple or three more of these days where you have to ride at the front or lose your high GC placing (I don't remember the tour having these hard non-mountain top days that forced the GC men to work so hard?) and there is at least another mountain-top finish after the Angliru, maybe 2.
What will be interesting is if somebody goes early on that day and tries to blow Kelme out. I think Simoni will go to try to take the mountain points and maybe win on Angliru and then if it works out get back into the GC picture. Maybe Euskatel will send Zubeldia with him?
The teams united against Kelme...Spunout
Sep 18, 2002 4:48 PM
Saeco, Euskatel, Once, even iBanesto could cause problems. I don't count USPS because only Heras and CVV can keep up on the climbs(maybe Rubiera if he finds his legs), and they don't have strong domestiques on the squad.
it was pretty telling though yesterdayrufus
Sep 19, 2002 2:35 PM
when the attacks were going off the front on the last climb, and gonzales left it all up to sevillas to chase them down. sevillas was at the front of the group trying to pull them back up. although perhaps gonzales was only able to hang in the group, and not set the pace.

even if that was the case, if he'd been on us postal, they'd probably have had him work hard at the front until he couldn't go any more, and then rde in at his own pace. goodbye second place.
it was pretty telling though yesterdayatpjunkie
Sep 19, 2002 6:56 PM
yes AG was suffering on that climb. IMHO this whole debate is moot as I think Oscar will lose him in the Spanish Pyrrenese. As far as attacks we were referring to todays attack by Tauler. I don't think AG has the legs to keep up but if it's close and he's feeling on IMO it's anyones game. It's kinda like Cippo having this banner year after Saeco dropped him. I'm sure A.G. has a bit of a chip and wants to show he's got the right stuff.
it was pretty telling though yesterdaymr_spin
Sep 20, 2002 7:44 AM
It was also pretty telling when Jan Ullrich put 2:18 into Bjarne Riis in the final time trial of the 1996 Tour de France. Hell, he beat Indurain by nearly a minute! Clearly Ullrich was going for the win. Right?

Machiavellian schemes. You gotta love 'em.
long live the controversyatpjunkie
Sep 20, 2002 1:37 PM
not looking for converts, different opinions are great. Machiavelli lives, time will tell and I'm big on the conspiracy stuff. If A.G. is close he'll run it in the TT. He's gonna have to hang tough on Angliru. Maybe I saw a different race but when watching from the chase bike it seemed Kelme was always at the back of the break. If he hadn't been sandbagging would he have been able to attack that break like he did? I think not, he almost held off the Peloton.