|Why Did Lance Wait For Ullrich After Ullrich Crashed?||"The Wheel"|
Jul 21, 2001 12:58 PM
|I mean, duh, the object of the race is to cross the finish line in the fastest time. Why wait for some guy that rode into the grass?|
|re: Why Did Lance Wait For Ullrich After Ullrich Crashed?||Lou M|
Jul 21, 2001 1:06 PM
|If Lance had taken off it would have been the equivalent of kicking a man while he is down. It was a classy move and it showed the ultimate sportsmanship. Besides he is not "really" concerned about Ulrich. Ulrich just about killed himself in that downhill trying so hard. Some in this forum said in an ealier post that "ulrich didn't care and had no passion", that is ludicrous.|
|And, also:||Mike K|
Jul 21, 2001 1:18 PM
|As you look down this board, it is a collection of soliloquies to the Jan Ulrich excuse factory (at least he does not seem to make any for himself). Why give them another one?
Do the honorable and sportsman like thing and wait for the guy - otherwise the posts here would be along the following lines:
"Jan Ulrich, having developed a major and unsurmountable 3 foot gap over the less than talented but lucky American and his inferrior team on a heroic decent, was with these 3 feet well on his way to erasing a 4 minute deficit he has to the much inferior Lance Armstrong, who does not nearly posses the genetic potential that Jan has to race at this level, was maliciously and dishonorably robbed of his certain second win in the Tour by the underhanded move by the American to race ahead while Jan recovered from his unfortunate fall."
I think Lance just showed most of us why he is the better man - how many of us have waited for a competitor in crit who just lost it?
|good one...||Lou M|
Jul 21, 2001 1:36 PM
|by the way, where are all the Ulrich fans, the ones that believe he is the most talented rider in the world? Run and hide, fellows. I loved it when Ulrich tried with all his might, strenght, and yes, TALENT, to breakaway from Armstrong, all he managed was 1/2 bicycle length, and that only because Armstrong "allowed" him and was just wearing him out.|
Jul 21, 2001 2:32 PM
|You asked for Ullrich fans to come out, so here I am. I'm not going to make any excuses for him though. Armstrong is simply the stronger rider, and Ullrich screwed up on that descent today. Ullrich came to this Tour in terrific shape, but just not good enough to challenge Armstrong.
Why is it so important for many of Armstrong's fans (on this and other boards) to constantly put down the other riders, especially Ullrich? Is it simple (and simple-minded) jingoism or do you just automatically hold anyone who has the gall to attempt to challenge your hero in complete contempt? How does waiting for Ullrich make Armstrong the better man, assuming you're saying that he's a better man than Ullrich? It's an unspoken rule that you don't attack your rival if he's just crashed, is taking a pis$ or in the feed zone, etc. In fact, I was shocked that Beloki put an acceleration in before Ullrich caught back on. Armstrong's a better rider in this Tour, but I have a hard time believing that Ullrich would have attacked if it had been Armstrong that overshot that corner and crashed.
Jul 21, 2001 3:09 PM
|I guess now that you can no longer pronounce the Teutonic superiority of one Jan Ullrich, at least for the duration of this Tour, you can reduce yourself further by launching attacks not only the person of LA but on his fans as well (of which I am not really one).
Kind of pathetic isn't it to be so thin skinned as to be offended by a message board post? Jingoism? well, maybe but so is the quickly wearing "Ullrich came to this Tour in terrific shape, but just not good enough to challenge Armstrong" euphemism so proudly posted (and by now well practiced) response of the simian, NOW convention at the wrong time of the month, anti-Armstrong league.
I have no idea of why American riders are such polarizing figures.
Personally, I like JaJa, he's fun to watch, he has charisma, which most of the other top-ranked riders (and many of their fans) seem to have misplaced somewhere along the line of their career.
Jul 21, 2001 11:19 PM
|Please point out to me where I made any attacks on Armstrong himself in my last post. I'd love to see it. I'm not anti-Armstrong by any stretch. I'm an American. I've read his books and know the whole story, and I even attended a speech given by his coach to see if I could learn more about how Armstrong trains. I've simply been a fan of Ullrich's for longer and want to see him fully realize the potential he showed back in '96 and '97. Perhaps he's done that already, and cannot ever beat Armstrong in the Tour, I don't know. However, I'm not going to apologize for not being aboard the "ra-ra Lance, the all-American boy whups the Euros" bandwagon.
In my post, I was being critical of his fans that feel the need to insult and degrade Armstrong's competition. If these fans truly admired Armstrong and strove to be anything like him, they might try showing the same respect to his competitors that he does. People are crowing about how classy he was today in waiting for Ullrich, why not try to emulate some of that class? One of the images that impressed me in today's stage was when Ullrich did catch back on, Armstrong genuinely seemed concerned about his condition, and it appeared as though he asked him if he was alright. I was even hoping to see them have a bit of a laugh about it, but those krouts are always so damn serious ;-)
BTW, I agree with you about JaJa. I just wish he could have stayed away until the finish. Who would have thought, even two or three years ago, that Jalabert would have a legitimate shot at winning the KOM? Incredible. It's been an amazing race this year. Let's hope for more of the same in the remaining stages.
Jul 21, 2001 3:38 PM
|Well, I am an American and a big fan of the tour. I have great respect for both Jan and Lance. Perhaps Lance waited out of sportsmanship but I have a feeling it was also in his best interest. By waiting for Jan he could continue to mark Jan, have Jan help him pull away from Simone, and give Rubiera and Heras a chance to integrate into the group. Those two surely helped Lance pick up the pace and get him in yellow by the end of the stage. I agree with you that both men are great sportsman. I think this is one of the most interesting tours I have watched and cant wait for tomorrow.|
|And, also:||Lou M|
Jul 21, 2001 4:59 PM
|I welcome and admire the fact that Ulrich is putting on a fight, he has notgiven up and has given his all. Nothing personal against him, only problem is with the load of crap that he is the most "talented rider" and that if he cared he would have won more TDF's.
I expect him to keep fighting and making the race interesting over the last week.
Jul 21, 2001 10:32 PM
|Hear, Hear. Lance is a class act, and today he showed it to the world. The man is a machine, if he beats another cyclist he'll do it straight up and in the cyclist's face. Not, while the guy is flat on his back. I think each of us should take note of what true sportsmanship is. My biking helmet is off to Lance Armstrong.|
|re: Why Did Lance Wait For Ullrich After Ullrich Crashed?||4bykn|
Jul 21, 2001 1:08 PM
|The same reason he "gave" Pantani a stage win in last year's tour. He has class, contrary to some people's opinions. If it was a closer race and he wasn't so confident of victory would he have done the same thing? Dunno, but I like to think he would. It also helps Lance to have the one rider who can almost match him in the tour to challenge him, even helping him take the yellow jersey from Simon.|
|re: Why Did Lance Wait For Ullrich After Ullrich Crashed?||"The Wheel"|
Jul 21, 2001 1:24 PM
|Yes, I remember Muhammed Ali did the same thing to George Foreman when he saw he was tired and gave him a massage and a sip of water.
And when Michael Jordan saw he was scoring too many points in the championship final he deliberately shot some air balls into the upper stands.
I heard that Lance said to Ullrich, "yoo hoo here I am hurry up and catch up so you can keep me company, we'll talk. Oh fuss, you got so dirty"
|Don't forget the Amstel Gold classic...||Lou M|
Jul 21, 2001 1:39 PM
|where he pretty much gave the win away to Erik Dekker. Dekker was at home and LA thought it was the right thing to do, never know when he might have needed Dekker to return a favor later (like the TDF). Yes, Erik beat him on a sprint to the line. However, everyone knows that Lance didn't need to sprint to the line. He could have taken off long before. LA was just testing his form for the TDF.|
Jul 23, 2001 11:43 AM
|Everyone knows? He lost Amstel Gold, fair and square. He simply wasn't in a position to give anything away. Lance might gift a stage of the tour when it doesn't affect the overall, but there is no reason he would give away a one day race. And nobody gifts classics. Especially when he wants so bad to win it.
Winning a World Cup race means money and points for the team, and his mates would be very upset if he had given the race away after their hard work. Why would they work for him again? Lance has such a dedicated team because he works his butt off to win the race. Finally, there is nothing Rabobank could offer USPS that would be worth giving away the race.
|Real classy move...||biknben|
Jul 21, 2001 1:23 PM
|It's about sportsmanship and respect. Gotta respect a move like that. Yes, he could have blown Jan away at that point but like someone else said it's like kicking him while he's down. Jan will be kicking himelf for it anyway.
Also consider that Lance needed people to work with to catch the break. I think, at the time, there were only 1 or 2 other people with LA and there was still someone up the road. It helps to have a workhorse like Jan with you. Even if he is your biggest threat.
|re: Why Did Lance Wait For Ullrich After Ullrich Crashed?||Bart S.|
Jul 21, 2001 3:18 PM
|I think Lance wanted to destroy Ullrich's morale. He was confident he could beat him crash or not. By waiting for him and beating him, he left no doubt as to who the better rider is.|
|Bart is the only one who got it right!||Tom C|
Jul 22, 2001 8:40 PM
|When did you talk to Armstrong? (nm)||mike mcmahon|
Jul 22, 2001 9:32 PM
|Who said that talking to Armstrong....||Tom C|
Jul 22, 2001 9:42 PM
|automatically reveals his mind to us? If you could ride away from your most feared rival at will, wouldn't you wait for him? If defeat is as much psychological as physical what better way to defeat Ullrich psychologically than to make the grand gesture of opportune sportsmanship. Yes, I believe Bart got it right and cats play with mice before they eat them and no I never bothered to ask the cats.|
|I was just curious||mike mcmahon|
Jul 23, 2001 7:34 AM
|about why you could state as a matter of fact that Bart's was the only right response. I thought maybe you had some inside information. ;-) Anyhow, my problem with your theory is that Armstrong last saw Ullrich as he was going over the handlebars at a relatively high rate of speed. Armstrong had no idea whether Ullrich was injured and, if so, how severely. Do you think Armstrong would wait for Ullrich just to deliver a devastating psychological blow, not knowing whether might be riding with broken bones or internal injuries? Also, consider that Ullrich's crash occurred in the general vicinity where Armstrong lost a teammate. IMO, the desire to deliver a knock-out punch may have been a factor, but I'd like to think that Armstrong waited because it was the right thing to do.|
|It's heartening to know that morality is not dead.nm||Tom C|
Jul 23, 2001 5:43 PM
|He didn't add fuel to the fire.||E3|
Jul 21, 2001 5:17 PM
|He's got enough problems squashing the drug rumors and the battling the European press that is (IMHO) anti-American. If he'd have made such an unsportmanlike move, it would have added one more thing to overshadow his overall (expected) victory. We all know that the press are waiting to hammer home the drug crap after his display in the mountains.
He had everything to gain by waiting.
|Lets also think of this another way!||CyclingWolf|
Jul 21, 2001 5:54 PM
|If Lance would have taken off, what is to say he would have to answer stupid media accusations. For example you feel it was neccessary to take advantage of Jan during his accident? Maybe Jan would have had an excuse? I admire each of them and enjoying the Tour this year, but the media will question either way and it was simply sportsman like for Lance to do what he did.|
|Lance is in control, and he feels it||Starliner|
Jul 21, 2001 7:24 PM
|Yes it was a sportsmanlike gesture, as Lance respects Yawn as a talented competitor, and Lance had little to lose and everything to gain by his decision, for he knows he has entered a zone where he stands alone. For him, it's done already. The famous look, now the wait, it all comes from a supreme level of confidence possessed by somebody who has found..... the zone.
The Tour de Suisse victory and how he pulled it off should have warned the world what to expect from him. The TDF is merely a confirmation of his greatness.
|re: Why Did Lance Wait For Ullrich After Ullrich Crashed?||scott leech|
Jul 22, 2001 10:51 AM
|there is a certain road ettiqute between 2 great riders!!!!!!!!!1|
|It's Old World Sportsmanship & tradition||Popeye|
Jul 22, 2001 7:28 PM
|Remember when Armstrong's Motorola teammate & friend Fabio Casartelli (sp?) was killed on a descent & the entire peleton neutralized the next stage, allowing the Motorola team to ride the entire stage at the front to honor a fallen competitor? I also have always wondered if Lance's stage win in that Tour was also a gift from the peleton, giving Lance a chance to point to Heaven & tell Fabio "this one's for you from all of us." Anyone see a similarity between this & the controversy over Dale Earnhart Jr's recent Nascar win?|
|Because winning isn't meaningful...||mr_spin|
Jul 23, 2001 7:05 AM
|unless your opponent is on the field.|
|Was it LA's decision?||tommyb|
Jul 23, 2001 9:00 AM
|We're all assuming that Lance made the decision to wait. One of my biggest complaints about modern bike racing is the constant radio communication with the team car. Are we sure that Lance was being noble, or was his DS telling him to wait, either based on the tactical advantage or the positive PR or a deal he struck quickly with the Telekom DS on their radio channel? Maybe this whole discussion should focus on Johan instead of Lance. He seems to be a very classy guy, both as a racer and a DS. Lance may have just been following orders.|
|Needed Livingston & Ullrich for Climb||wink|
Jul 23, 2001 10:23 AM
|LA was in a no loose situation by waiting, plus I beleive he was playing more off of Livingston's familiar climbing tactics to determine how to pace the final climb. Bottom line Lance waited for Lance's sake, not JU's, and not the super concerned sportsman that the press wants us to beleive! Much easier to climb with 2 or even better 3 than alone!|| |