|moment of silence for Kivilev nm||Kvonnah|
Mar 12, 2003 9:13 AM
|If he wore a F8CKing helmet, his son wouldn't be fatherless now||shirt|
Mar 12, 2003 9:41 AM
|I have no mercy. This is a dangerous sport. Newsflash: You can fall down and hit your head hard on the pavement. He had a wife and a kid, and gained absolutely zero benefit from NOT wearing a helmet.
A non-racing friend once asked me, "How come I see all these guys on OLN racing without helmets?" After cycling through all the usual excuses about heat, sponsors, etc, the only answer I could truly come up with was, "They're stupid."
Go ahead, let me have it. But I'm not budging...
|thats not cool||ctisevn|
Mar 12, 2003 10:46 AM
|and you appear to know it. the man's gone, show him some respect.|
|Why? Because he's dead?||shirt|
Mar 12, 2003 11:00 AM
|His child's fatherless. That's way less cool than riding without a helmet. My adopted son's first father died doing something just as stupid; I'm guessing in retrospect he feels like an aszhole.
Here's the deal: if I die doing something that stupid, I personally give you permission to piss on my grave. Repect schmect.
Kivilev's courage, brilliance and bonhomie are not under attack. But his sucsceptibility (along with other pros) to the peer pressure not to wear a helmet needs to be exposed. And I'll bet my left nut that peer pressure is the main culprit. Think it goes away after high school?
If his death can change this attitude in the peloton, his life will not have been wasted.
Don't you find it slightly amusing that his entire team, in their tribute ride to him today, all wore helmets?
Trust me, the reason I'm this "disrespectful" is because I know the pain and loss his family is feeling. And it wasn't necessary...
|Agree 100%, nm||Len J|
Mar 12, 2003 3:11 PM
|Thank you for pointing out the obvious...||brider|
Mar 12, 2003 12:08 PM
|...and making it an insult to boot. Yes, I'm sure that his family would be MUCH more comforted knowing that you think he's stupid. In fact, why don't you just dial them up now?|
|If it were that obvious he'd be alive. (nm)||shirt|
Mar 12, 2003 12:11 PM
|You're such a class act... (nm)||brider|
Mar 12, 2003 1:55 PM
Mar 12, 2003 2:11 PM
|Just want to make sure all my roadie bros and sisters wear their fu*kin6 helmets!
|Is riding helmetless considered a "class act"? (nm)||RockyMountainRacer|
Mar 12, 2003 2:43 PM
|If he wore a F8CKing helmet, his son wouldn't be fatherless now||Sharkman|
Mar 12, 2003 3:28 PM
|Once again Shirt, you are dead on. There is no excuse for not wearing a helmet when you are a husband and a father. I am both, and never fail to use a helmet.
You simply have responsibilities that transcend the need to be acceptable to peers. And as you stated, what advantage is gained by not wearing a helmet.
The debate might be reasonable if significant competitive advantage stemmed from passing on using a helmet. But, without any advantage .....
Mar 12, 2003 3:55 PM
|Having a hard time with the "silence" bit, huh?|
|This is a "message" board. nm||shirt|
Mar 12, 2003 3:58 PM
Mar 12, 2003 6:46 PM
|hope you are wearing your helmet when you get plowed by a truck on your next ride then you can be high and mighty when you see him in heaven|
Mar 12, 2003 7:43 PM
|First of all, those of us who read this board regularly know that Shirt is not going to heaven.
But now that we've gotten that cleared up, what is high and mighty about being a proponent of helmet wearing? First of all, we all know that bike riding (and especially racing) is dangerous, and we all accept the risks every time we get on the machine. Getting plowed by a truck is one of these risks, and it's one that's mostly out of our control, so we must accept it.
But skull fractures that kill you can almost always be prevented by wearing a helmet. Kivilev's own team doctor said that wearing a helmet almost certainly would have saved his life. So I ask you again, what on earth is high and mighty about minimizing the inherent risks of our chosen method of recreation?
Like it or not, as a racer you are an emissary of cycling. Other riders will likely follow your lead (although of course they would die before admitting it). Tooling around with no helmet on for that cool "Euro" look, and especially so you don't mess up your hair, is therefore irresponsible not only to yourself but the cycling community as a whole. I really think the whole no helmet thing is nothing but excessive bravado. And the only reason I can think of that a lot of amateur racers would choose to leave the helmet off is because a lot of pro's choose not to wear one.
|I will be! nm||shirt|
Mar 13, 2003 12:25 AM
|I've posted five silent posts. You can't see them. nm||Spunout|
Mar 13, 2003 5:14 AM
|You can count on shirt..||Qubeley|
Mar 12, 2003 9:43 PM
|he is always there when some cyclist die, e.g. GW (I dare not to spell out the complete words, the consequence is horrifying..)
Just like a vulture. Appearantly, he has the need to show his clear thinking at moment such as this.
|Always keep the sun at your back before attacking. :-)||shirt|
Mar 12, 2003 11:59 PM
|Agree... feel sorry for the guy, but his own doing||gnailuh|
Mar 12, 2003 6:05 PM
|I see people ride around the bay area without helmets... when it's 9am, 50 degrees and they're wearing arm and leg warmers... what's the purpose?
Also, you should wear the damn helmet not only if you're a father with kids and a wife... do it for yourself... do it for you mother and father... do it so we don't have to discuss such a sad issue on the board!
Mar 12, 2003 7:21 PM
|he died of a basilar skull fracture...that happenes when you land on your face and your skull is forced into extension.
a helmet would NOT have made a difference.
|A little respect please?||tdflance|
Mar 12, 2003 7:32 PM
|So you ride with your helemts, huh? Well that's good for you and your family, but what's that helmet going to do for you if you get rammed by a truck?
Cycling is a dangerous sport. Living life is full of risks. People can't hide under a rock all their lives. I admit he should have worn the helmet, but how many times do you go past the speed limit in you car, with or without your children in it.
|his doctor said he "certainly" would have lived||DougSloan|
Mar 13, 2003 10:45 AM
|"Cofidis team doctor Jean-Jacques Menuet said Kivilev almost certainly would have survived if he was wearing a helmet.
"The injury Andrei sustained on his skull is located at a point that would have been protected by a helmet," Meunet told the French wire service AFP. "Riders are free to wear a helmet or not, even though as doctors we would all like to see that it becomes obligatory."
|respect for Kivilev||weiwentg|
Mar 12, 2003 8:12 PM
|shirt, I have to call you on this one. your point is well taken; it is a very good point. however, the means by which you made it was completely mean-spirited. you have explained the factors which make you emotional on this issue, and I think we understand. that does not give you the right to make such a statement. would you say that to Natalia Kivilev's face? I think that given time to reflect, you would not.
we already went through something like this on the general discussion board, with the cyclist who jumped over the Great Wall. what he did was dangerous, and probably stupid. I do not think this gives people the right to be mean spirited. upon reflection I should have expected no better of many RBRers. I'm sad to see that you are one of the 'many'. I hope that, as I said, you would not have said that if given time to reflect.
and yes, I do think it's time for the pros to wear helmets (except maybe on mountaintop finishes).
Mar 13, 2003 12:23 AM
|Thank you for your well thought out comments. As always, you may very well be right. My response:
If I wanted to insult Kivilev's wife, I would do it to her face. As it is, I feel sadness for both her and her son and can't imagine doing anything so mean-spirited. I'm actually a nice guy (ask my ex-girlfriends.) This message board is frequented by mainly amateur racers in the US, UK and Australia. To them I say: wear your fu*8king helmet.
Regarding the stupidity issue, I'm sticking by my guns. Everyone who doesn't wear one is stupid. Yes, that includes Lance when he descends at 60mph w/o a helmet. Here, I'll say it: Lance, you're stupid.
Riding on public roads is mildly stupid, and taking the minimum precautions to make sure you come home seems a no-brainer. See RMR's comments above.
Somebody rode a bike off the Great Wall? See, this, along with racing without a helmet, should get you some sort of mention in the annual Darwin awards.
What everyone here seems to be forgetting (sharkman and RMR excepted), is that EVERYONE DIES. It's no more interesting or worthy of respect than being born. Since you have no control over either of those two events, the only thing you can focus on is the middle part. And all the middle part is, is a series of decisions. That's it! And making the decision to wear a helmet seems like an easy one (yes, I know what we do is inherently risky. That's a decision I make every time I get on my bike!)
Weiwen, I'm sorry I offended your sensibilities (everyone else I offended, I'm pretty much happy about), but I hope you can see that, regarding this one little, tiny helmet issue, the time has come to EVOLVE. Looking at Cofidis' haberdashery today, I think they may have come to the same conclusion...
If anyone on this board continues to ride with a bare head, I'm happy to schedule a private insulting session.
ps: Weiwen, trust me, this tactic works. It just doesn't win you any elections.
Mar 13, 2003 3:52 PM
|I never intended to win elections...||weiwentg|
Mar 13, 2003 4:29 PM
|and I do agree with you. the point at which we part ways is this: I do not consider it right to insult someone who has died. that's all.
you weren't being mean-spirited just for the sake of being mean-spirited, so you never offended my sensibilities. if you wanted to send an insulting letter to the entire pro peloton I'd probably sign my name.
|You have my vote. :-)||shirt|
Mar 13, 2003 4:50 PM
Mar 14, 2003 9:30 AM
|this board is also frequented by Asian road racers, and I'm proud to say that I'm among those who would fully support with the decision to make helmet mandatory in cycling.
"Ride safe, think of your loved ones"
|newsflash: Lance doesn't give a damn.||Spoiler|
Mar 14, 2003 10:45 AM
|He doesn't know you from Adam, so statements like, "Lance, you're stupid," never reach an audience. You realize this don't you?
Riders will make their own decision. Insults, letters, or private sessions from you will have about as much influence as letters from me to GWB asking him to chill in Iraq.
You can influence the decisions of your family, but that's the extent of it.
You can't win an election when you're not even on the ticket.
|WHAT??? Lance doesn't read this board???||shirt|
Mar 14, 2003 4:18 PM
|And he's not reading my carefully-crafted posts???
Man, that's a real let-down. I'm going to have to go think about that for a while. Boy, do I feel schooled.
|A moment of silence, but still stupid.||badge118|
Mar 14, 2003 3:27 PM
|I do believe there should be respect for the dead but riding with out a helmet is the height of stupidity. Every so often the FBI sends out a list of police officers killed in the line of duty. As an officer I read it, and when I see that an officer was shot in the chest and killed because he wasn't wearing a vest, I say a prayer for him, his family, and then promptly point out the stupidity of this action to any new officers the department may have. Now the deceased officers typically live in hot climates, but you have to wear the darn thing for yourself and your family. The helmet issue with cyclists is the same. If you don't wear it you are simply being stupid. If the UCI would simply say "you wear it or you don't race" then all the little BS reasons for not wearing it would go away, and we may well avoid a tragic repeat of this incident.|| |