Oct 24, 2002 3:29 PM
|Has anyone had any experience using these products? I've read a double-blind 1992 study in which the experimental group improved their performance by 3.85% in two weeks, compared to the control group, although the researchers didn't think this was statistically significant. However, I do.
I realize that e-caps are essentially CoQ10 plus some other support ingredients thrown in and studies done on CoQ10 itself show no ergogenic effects. However, the company has done a plethora of research and seems much more forthcoming with specific information and technical support than most nutritional product and ergogenics companies. I'm also aware that 99.999% of all supplement manufacturers' claims are unsubstantiated.
If anyone has any history with these products along with some comparative performance history I'd be interested in knowing about it.
Oct 24, 2002 5:04 PM
|You have to be EXTREMELY cautious when trying to interpret these studies. First, when the study says the results were not statistically significant, it means that the variability in the measurement is greater than the variation in the results. While the measured increase was "3.85%", if the result can only be measured to 10% accuracy, then such an increase is TRULY meaningless. To say that you think this is significant, you're WAY over interpreting this. Plus, to suggest that there are three significant figures of precision in this measurement points out that the researchers don't even understand the basics of numbers. Another point is that even if this was a "double blind" study, it is very hard to do a controlled study with any "food" program, as there are so many interactions, and foods substitute for each other. Finally, how would these results compare to just adjusting the diet to emphasize foods that would provide the same nutrients?
Your primary effect from taking these is most likely to be a placebo effect.
Oct 24, 2002 5:12 PM
Your question about adjusting diet to provide the same or similar nutrients is interesting. My original question concerned the difference between results obtained in the 1992 study and studies with respect to CoQ10 itself. The other major ingredients in E-caps, I believe, are cytochrome and inosine.
The study itself was a two-week double-blind crossover study, so I don't think the placebo effect would skew the results.
I've heard that these products are popular with triathletes. I'd really like to hear from someone who's used the product over a period of time and kept track of their training and results.
Oct 26, 2002 11:25 AM
|Let me clarify my comment about the placebo effect. Since the studies you cite shown no statistically significant improvement in performance, and it the studies were well designed and accurate, then they are showing no effect. Full stop. However, in sport the placebo effect can be significant (see Dumbo, the flying elephant, and the "magic feather"). Give an athlete something that they think will improve their performance, and they often will perform better, tolerate work load better, etc. The studies show no actual affect, but a given athlete may experience a placebo effect. This is what I was trying to say.|
|Race Caps/Enduro Caps||BipedZed|
Oct 24, 2002 8:03 PM
|I tried the RC/EC regimen in 2001. I was 30 years old at the time and training and racing approx 10-12hrs a week (Cat 4). Long story short, the products had little to no effect on performance. At most the Cytochrome C in EC seemed to have a mild lactic acid buffering effect in that my legs didn't seem as sore after a hard interval workout. RC had no noticeable affect at all.
After stopping the RC/EC caps at the end of summer I went on to have a very successful cyclocross season without any supplementation.
Currently I am a big proponent of PICs to bolster my immune system function with my heavy racing schedule (50+ per year). PICs have kept me healthy this entire season. However, the RC/EC combo was extremely costly with no noticeable performance gain.
|Thanks. Anyone else? (nm)||Jon Billheimer|
Oct 24, 2002 8:41 PM
Oct 24, 2002 10:00 PM
|I haven't seen the research you speak of Jon. I wouldn't read too much into a 3.85% difference in performance between a control group and the supplemented group though. Any time you train two groups you are going to get slight differences in performance no matter what. A difference of this much is really nothing to talk about from a research perspective, and isn't significant enough to show a difference. The control group just may not have responded to training in the same way, and it may not have had anything to do with the supplement. I would also be interested to see how well the study monitored the training over this time period- mileage, rest, and nutrition. I've seen a lot of studies that don't account for this at all. It's hard to compare if all the sample population doesn't do exactly the same thing during the time of the study. With a difference of this little though, another double blind study done with a different sample population could reverse the results by an equally small margin, and I wouldn't be surprised. I would consider the sub 4% difference to just be a statistical anomoly between two groups that are human, and respond to training differently.
Co-enzyme Q10 has shown some promise in other ways though. I believe there was a study on Alzeimer's patients that just came out showing some promise in maintaining quality of life. I think any accounts that we from individuals here though will be only ancedotal. Any time someone pays money for a product, and puts their faith into it as a performance enhancer, they want to believe in it. The placebo effect becomes very real. Trying to tell someone the product they decided to take doesn't do anything is really insulting their intelligence and rational for paying for and taking the product in the first place. The only sports related products that I have seen really believable research that is backed up that the products improve performance are for creatine, and glucosamine/chon. (if you have joint problems).
Not to say that e-caps don't work, but I wouldn't spend a lot until further independent research really backs it all up. Trying them might cure your curiousity, and you probably know this stuff as well as anyone else here.
Oct 24, 2002 10:04 PM
|Any predictions for the Solden, Austria World Cup ski opener this weekend? I'm thinking Eberharter, Miller, and Covilli in no particular order. Would like to see Miller pull it off, but Eberharter will be tough at home. Too bad it's not on OLN.|
|hey Jon||Jon Billheimer|
Oct 25, 2002 6:56 AM
|I'll put my money on Miller now that he's had a taste of the podium. I think he may have finally gotten past the "crash and burn" stage.
I thought of the training protocol variability in that 1992 study too. Furthermore, although I'm always scouting around for effective legal ergogenics I haven't found any. Personally, I don't mind admitting something doesn't work. After looking at the literature, for instance, I tried sodium phosphate loading twice and found it did nothing. Unfortunately, probably nothing works except hard work and success in the genetic lottery!
Oct 25, 2002 11:06 AM
|Seeing Bode win another would be great. He knows how to get the job done, and I'm sure he expects to win now.
Probably right about the hard work and genetics part. I've always figured if supplements did something other than supplement, they would be called drugs. I did find creatine to be worth some in the weight room, but I don't think it would be useful on the bike. I do wish the US govt would repeal the 1994 act they passed that deregulated the supplement industry. I think a lot of people are getting ripped off by unsubstantiated claims made today. I guess it really would take an act of Congress to get this changed though.
|What I've found. . .||Mike P|
Oct 25, 2002 4:57 AM
|I have been using E-Caps / Hammer Nutrition products for about a year and a half.
I started with just the Hammer Gel. It seems to help keep me going on rides of 1 1/2 to 3 hours.
For the 3+ hour rides I have been using the Sustained Energy. I have been amazed with the results I have experienced with this one. One thing though, it tastes like sh!t when it gets warm.
I use the Endurolytes. They seem to have helped prevent leg cramps on hotter days.
I have come up with some creative usage ideas for using the Hammer Gel, Sustained Energy and Endurolytes on the longer, hot day rides. I have been able to use a combination of these three to complete hard rides of 3 - 8 hours without having to eat anything solid and without bonking. If you want to know that stuff, let me know.
They had a sell on the Premium Insurance Caps (a multi-vitamin) a while back. I bought some. They seem to be a very good multi-vitamin designed for athletes. They are way too expensive for my blood and I have not yet decided if I will purchase any more.
I have been using the Cardio Caps, Enduro Caps, and Xobaline products for the last 14 months. I am not planning on purchasing any more of these. From my un-scientific experiments these are of no benifit.
Oct 25, 2002 7:29 AM
|Mike, you are right on with the Sustained energy. It keeps you going like the Energizer Bunny! I've also mixed it with Hammer Gel and Endurolytes for long enduro rides and love it. I was amazed how well this worked since I've had problems supplementing food and water on long rides where I always used to bonk or get dehydrated. Not any more. No comment on other e-cap products; haven't tried them.|
|Yes. Some work great. Others...?||jesse1|
Oct 25, 2002 1:59 PM
|I use the HammerGel & Sustained Energy together, not quite as strong as recomended since I'm just under 150 lbs. But even with the weaker solution, I can feel the energy return to my legs within minutes of a dose. I almost never ride without it.
I've suffered from leg cramps and tried the Endurolites (sp?)and noticed no difference at all. I've since picked up a cheap bottle of Calcium/Magnesium tablet, and using that with Potasium tablets, the cramps are pretty much history.
I also use the CardioCaps & EnduroCaps, and I do think they are a benifit to my training and hard rides.