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mixed zipps: 303 and 404 ???(13 posts)

mixed zipps: 303 and 404 ???JohnG
Aug 16, 2002 7:00 AM
I'm trying to decide if a mixed combo (303 front and 404 rear) would work better (for me) than a 303 pair.

These will be RR and crit only wheels and probably see only be used 10-20 times per year.

I'm a little leery of the 404 on the front. Looks scary big....... and maybe a bit wind sensitive for my 150# weight. ??? FWIW: Zipp lists the 404 rear at only 80gms heavier than the 303 so I don't think that sort of weight will ever be noticed.

Oh, these will be tubbie wheels and I can get them cheap enough that it sort of makes sense from a "value" point of view.

Thanks
JohnG
re: mixed zipps: 303 and 404 ???Sherpa23
Aug 16, 2002 9:22 AM
I don't think that it will make much of a difference either way but I do have some facts that might help you make the decision. With the mix, the real world aerodynamic advantage will be little if any and you will have to contend with a rear wheel with a different shape (cross section) than the front as the 404 has a bulge in it. This won't really make a performance difference but it is something that you might want to consider. Also, in the past, I have found the 404's to be a little hard to control in a cross wind. The third issue is that 3 people I know have broken 2002 404 wheels (two broke both wheels) and only one person that I know has broken the 303's (also both wheels). For statistics fiends out there, I know 12 people who use Zipps, 7 use 303's. I don't know if that means anything but I thought that I would pass it along. I do not have any riding experience with the 2002 Zipps as I have not ridden Zipps since 1998. I hope this helps. Good luck in the decision.
re: mixed zipps: 303 and 404 ???DougSloan
Aug 16, 2002 9:28 AM
I've done the opposite, 404 on the front and 303 on the rear, thinking the aero-ness is much more important up front.

I've never had a problem with wind. I've even ridden my Cervelo on 100+ mile rides with a disc and 404 without issues. I've found a 404 not a whole lot different than a Ksyrium.

Nonetheless, I don't think the real world performance will be much different either way. The 303's will accellerate a little bit better, the 404's have a little less drag. It might depend on your strengths and weaknesses. Then again, it just won't matter that much.

Doug
My thoughts,....CARBON110
Aug 16, 2002 9:40 AM
Zipp wheels are excellent wheels. I weigh 127Lbs and I have taken some good hits on my 2002 303 zipps. I love these wheels but I must confess, it would concern me a little to jump water bottles or sticks o really bad train racks in the middle of a race if I weighed anything more than 150lbs or so. The 303s are unral fast on hills and sprints, and the carbon is really nice carbon. they are waterproof completly. If you only are going to use them 2 dozen times ad you don't do alot of TTs I would go with the 303. You will notice wind from the 404s for sure. I had some Cosmic Carbone Mavics that were 58mm deep and I noticed. Those wheels weighed 2000 grams and the carbon did not compare to zipp but I would imagine the 404s being so light you willl notice the wind even more. But, they are great for flat races and crits. i see alot of people use them.
I'd stick with the 303s straightlonefrontranger
Aug 16, 2002 1:20 PM
I found there was a LOT of wind play from higher profile wheels, even heavier ones. The ligher the wheel and the higher the profile, the more it's affected by windshear. I've used different combos; Rolfs, Spinergys (various types), a standard front / aero rear, etc...

In my experience, it seems that anything taller than the 38mm (I think that's right) cross-section of the 303s is severely affected by wind. Compound this with the fact that Zipps are *extremely* lightweight and you are a light rider, and I'd tend to stick with the less squirrelly option. Also, I've seen a few cracked 404 rims (spoke pullout type issues) but never 303s.

For what it's worth, my front 303 survived a 25mph direct hit on a curb (the one that busted my CB) and the mechanic at Excel who inspected them afterwards said he'd swear the wheelset had never been crashed. A month before that incident, this same wheelset survived a trip up the Horgan hillclimb, rocks, gravel and all. The guy who sold them to me happens to be a longtime buddy of mine who raced for the same Ohio team I did, so I loaned 'em back to him for the P/1/2 race.

Word to the wise. Don't bother blowing your tubs up to >150 psi, especially in bumpy technical crits! (I bet Sherpa will back me up on that one...). I usually put mine at 130; they still ride waaaay better than clinchers. Only the big dudes truly benefit from insane tire pressure anyhow.
with you on the tire pressuresDougSloan
Aug 16, 2002 2:00 PM
I used to think that because a tubie could handle 175 psi, and higher pressure meant lower rolling resistance, I'd stand on that pump until those tires were rock hard. The bike rode and handled like crap.

I've since lowered them bit by bit, and I, too, find that 130 is plenty hard, but gives a much nicer ride and corners better. 120 works even better for crappy chip seal.

Doug
TP, uhh, tire pressureSherpa23
Aug 16, 2002 11:45 PM
Oh yeah, especially on flyweight type wheels you don't want too much pressure. The incident to which LFR is referring was a crit last week on BUMPY corners and I broke out a set of prototype super light weight crit wheels with a bit of a revolutionary tubular tire/rim interface and I got a little overzealous and pumped those bad boys up to 170 psi. Bad idea. It was manageable while I was OTF but then I lost a contact lens and dropped back a bit and then tried to move back up but not only could I not see where the curbs were (yeah, my eyesight is pretty bad) but I couldn't see the bumps in the corners and with that tire pressure and intense feedback via the rim, I hit some bumps that really caught me by surprise. Yeah, not being to choose my line because of my bad eyesight really made the TP situation a little worse but crap happens in bike racing and there's nothing to be gained by dropping out. I just raced the remaining 65 minutes of the crit in the middle of the field so that I could follow people around the turns and rode into the finish casually on the back of the sprint. No, of course I couldn't see well enough to mix it up in the sprint. I just followed the wheels.
Thanks for the advice..... I ended up ordering the ...JohnG
Aug 18, 2002 6:47 AM
I went with the Zipp 303's. Heck at $825 for the set it was just too hard to resist. :-) Sold my "spare" set of new Kyseriums and will soon find glue stuck to my fingers.

Wow....... it's been 27+ years since I last used tubies.

JohnG
check these outDougSloan
Aug 18, 2002 4:45 PM
Work for me; much easier to use:

http://www.worldclasscycles.com/tufo_tubular_gluing_strip.htm
check these outJohnG
Aug 19, 2002 9:13 AM
Cool.

Any tire suggestions????

I'm leaning toward Tufo S3-lite 215gms or the Veloflex Servizio Corsa 210 grams but am open to suggestions. I might even put some of the Tufo goop inside. ???

SDEALS has both tires and the Tufo rim tape: http://www.sdeals.com/system/index.html

I've never done bus with SDEALS. ???

JohnG
check these outDougSloan
Aug 19, 2002 9:18 AM
I use the Tufo S3 Lite 215, too. I pre-inject some sealant, which adds 20-30 grams, but lots of peace of mind.

I buy mine from World Class Cycles.

Doug
question about the TUFO rim tapeJohnG
Aug 19, 2002 2:29 PM
Is that pressure activated tape "new". The TUFO rim tape shown on the SDEALS site looks different. Maybe an old product. ???

The TUFO site only shows the "new" pressure activated version.

JohnG
question about the TUFO rim tapeDougSloan
Aug 19, 2002 3:14 PM
I have the "pressure activated" tape. Here is another thread where I sort of did a review. http://forums.consumerreview.com/crforum?viewall@@.efb07c6

Check out World Class Cycles.

Doug