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State TT Champs- - Wattage Requirement(30 posts)

State TT Champs- - Wattage RequirementPack Meat
Jul 2, 2002 6:14 AM
I just did a calculation and determined that in order to win the State TT championships I need to produce 625 watts for 52 minutes. I assumed a drag coeff of 0.5 which is low considering that's about what LA was after doing a lot of wind tunnel testing and tweaking of position. 172.5 cranks, I guessed 83 kgs for bike and rider, if I lose 3 kg I only need 612 watts. Based on last years results I need to do a 40k tt in about 52 minutes. Last year with no special training and slapping on the tt bars the day before I did 56:14. That's a wattage of about 550. Should I even bother?
What I've readBipedZed
Jul 2, 2002 6:23 AM
I know pretty much nothing about power, but in the latest Cycle Sport there's an article in the back about power and VO2 using the Banesto team (Indurain era) in lab testing. If I remember correctly, in a TT of 40K and above the average wattage was around 350-400. And that's the elite of the elite.

State TT is my next big goal and I'm shooting for a top 5. Doing the Colorado Springs TT series as a tune up. The best training for a TT IMO are these weekday races because you just can't push yourself at TT pace on your own. Mentally it also reminds you how bad they hurt.
seems a little highDougSloan
Jul 2, 2002 6:25 AM
I read that Lance makes about 500 for an hour. 625 for 52 minutes would probably win it, I'd say.

Doug
You're getting too technical about it.brider
Jul 2, 2002 7:14 AM
Man, relax on the propeller head stuff (and this coming from an engineer). Are you using a power meter to come up with this? If not, I'd say your assumptions are off. Pay attention to your position and how you feel you're going in that position. It's a trade-off between power and aerodynamics. The best position in the world won't do you much good if you can't get the pedal power going, or if you can't breathe. Going from 56 and change to 52 is a huge jump, especially with no focussed training. Not that you can't do it, but I'd say it would be pretty miraculous if you did. Buy or borrow some aero wheels, dial in your position, and do some practice TTs. Get to where you can relax your upper back and "drop your spine" between your shoulder blades (keeps the head low even when you're looking up, and facilitates easier breathing).
The numbers I've read...Kyle
Jul 2, 2002 7:19 AM
Armstrong can maintain about 450 for 1/2 hour. I believe that the 1hr record was set at about a 450 watt average.

Friel's training bible has a table suggesting that on a flat course, a 150 lb rider would have to output 400 watts to turn in a time of 55:24. He doesn't even bother to extend the chart past 400, so I suspect he considers that pretty fast.
some Lance numbersDougSloan
Jul 2, 2002 8:23 AM
Be like Lance - you wish:
Ever wondered what kind of numbers the boy can generate? Lance's coach, Chris Carmichael sent us these key stats for LA:

Resting heart rate: 32-34
VO2ml/kg: 83.8
Max power at VO2: 600 watts
Max heart rate: 201
Lactate Threshold HR: 178
Time Trial HR: 188-192
Pedal rpm's during TT: 95-100
Climbing rpm's: 80-85, sometimes faster when attacking
Average HR during endurance rides (4-6 hrs): 124-128
Average watts during endurance rides: 245-280 watts
Training miles/hours, endurance rides: 5- 6 hrs / 100-130miles

http://www.lancearmstrong.com/faq.html
Another kind of funny number...Kyle
Jul 2, 2002 8:52 AM
I read (perhaps on this board?) that Armstrong has a 43cm vertical jump. This would be considered average for a 16 year old girl.

Can't substantiate that number on google so it probably isn't true. I did read somewhere that LA said he produces something like 1/3 the lactic acid of a normal person, suggesting that he is incredibly slow twitch. So maybe it is true? In any event, I'd pick him for my team last if I was playing basketball for money...
re: State TT Champs- - Wattage RequirementBrokenSpoke
Jul 2, 2002 8:05 AM
Between the laughter and the tears of reading your predetrmined wattage requirement to win the State TT, I wonder why you even bother with field sprints in crits? If you can produce 600+ watts for a hour, then you should drop the 'Pack Meat' and ride away from everyone at the start of every race. Hell, you could even spot the field a lap or two and still win! 600+ watts ROTFLMAO!!!
You're smart and probably a Pro Peloton rider. nmPack Meat
Jul 2, 2002 10:23 AM
nm
You're smart and probably a Pro Peloton rider. nmBrokenSpoke
Jul 2, 2002 12:13 PM
Your funny. I love your posts and I applaud your efforts. Didn't mean to set you off, just wanted to chide you a little on your math. I think you should approach the time trial from alittle less technical aspect and just put forth your best effort. I have seen too many riders go way overboard on the technical aspects and forget that they just need to ride their best. If you do the TT, good luck. By the way, I don't ride for Pro Peleton. I was just trying to get you to expand a little bit on your viewpoints concerning their team. Take care.
No big dealPack Meat
Jul 2, 2002 2:01 PM
I probably wouldn't have thought twice about it but everybody was jumping all over me. It does raise an interesting question, do you or should you sprint for a placing well out of the money and/or points? 14th or 40th does it matter?
Sprint for pointsBrokenSpoke
Jul 3, 2002 6:07 AM
From a personal standpoint, I will sprint anytime I think I can place in the top 20. BAR / BAT points go 20 deep and every little bit helps. I cannot tell you how many riders I have passed because they feel they are out of the money. Sometimes these sprints can be a little hairy because I may be comming back from deep in the field, but a point is a point in my opinion. As far as sprinting for money, the same rule applies. Just because you think you are out of the money, sprint anyway. You never know when there may be a crash. I took a 3rd at City Park 3 or 4 years ago when there was a crash during the sprint. I went from 10th to 3rd because I was sprinting for BAR / BAT points. You never know what's going to happen.
Yep, I'll always go for points and cashPack Meat
Jul 3, 2002 6:54 AM
But if I'm sitting 25th or deeper going into the last corner the race is pretty much over I figure. I guess I just don't want to risk a crash for 31st place.
Sprint for pointsBrokenSpoke
Jul 3, 2002 7:01 AM
From a personal standpoint, I will sprint anytime I think I can place in the top 20. BAR / BAT points go 20 deep and every little bit helps. I cannot tell you how many riders I have passed because they feel they are out of the money. Sometimes these sprints can be a little hairy because I may be comming back from deep in the field, but a point is a point in my opinion. As far as sprinting for money, the same rule applies. Just because you think you are out of the money, sprint anyway. You never know when there may be a crash. I took a 3rd at City Park 3 or 4 years ago when there was a crash during the sprint. I went from 10th to 3rd because I was sprinting for BAR / BAT points. You never know what's going to happen.
Step a side Lance, we have a new champion!LC
Jul 2, 2002 8:36 AM
625 watts for nearly a hour? Someone get this man a new calculator. How are you figuring out the watts?
From the SRMSherpa23
Jul 2, 2002 9:31 AM
Okay, as others have said, that figure is way off. From personal experience, only an average of 410w is needed for a 52 min flat 40k at SEA LEVEL, which means that less wattage would be needed here, I would estimate 390w at the most. It is very hard to sustain above 400w here at altitude. In fact, most mass start races have extremely low wattage averages and to do a 52 minute TT you will need to do much more that what a typical Pro,1,2 race here will require. Let's put in in perspective with some of my SRM numbers from Meridian last Thursday. Now Meridian, as you probably know, is pretty easy and anyone can cruise through it. I figure that it must be comparable to a cat.4 race. For background, I rode the whole thing in the top 10 guys and was off the front several times (some experiments with which to compare to previous data) but did not sprint up the hill on the last lap as I am still dealing with an injury issue and did not want to risk reinjury so I cannot give you a final placing more specific than top 15. As a result of that, my average power is going to be about 30w higher than someone who rode it in a draft the whole way or rode it more steadily without attacking or following attacks. Okay, having said that, here is some of the data for the one hour. Avg watts: 240w, Max watts 1546w, avg speed 43.4 kph. My hr averaged a good 25 beats below threshold. That means that I have another 25 beats with which to generate sufficient wattage to meet my TT goal. For someone that did Meridian exactly as I did but were much closer to threshold HR, then there is less room with which to generate the wattage. If someone rode Meridian in the pack and were near or at threshold HR the whole time then there is little more that they can increase their HR and increase wattage. As a result, they will probably average 210 watts or so for the duration. So you can use some of that information compared to you hr data to see what you need to work on, if anything at all. I hope that this helps.
Well then........Pack Meat
Jul 2, 2002 9:54 AM
For those of you that looked past the obviously inaccurate numbers, thanks for the advice. For those of you that missed the part that stated that this is a calculation with a lot of assumptions...... well let's just say that I thought the numbers were high but for the excercise it seemed ok to use the numbers that are all based on the same assumptions. I used this page to do the calculation
http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesPower_Page.html

I have 6 weeks until the race and the day before the race my friend is getting married and refuses to change the date. And yes, if I can't win it I don't want to put in the investment of time and money for equipment to be Pack Meat again.
why not just do a test?DougSloan
Jul 2, 2002 10:09 AM
Why not just go out and timetrial and see what you can average? The distance need not be exactly the same. That will give you a much better idea than all the calculations in the world.

Doug
sounds goodPack Meat
Jul 2, 2002 10:21 AM
I'll go out to the course this weekend and ride out to the first turn around and back. I need to average around 28mph.
which state timetrialishmael
Jul 2, 2002 11:28 AM
could it perchance be the Pennsylvania one? If so, you'll have to be happy with second, I'm going too. Altough I can only average about 24 mph as of now, I plan to drop 45 pounds by then for an amazing weight of 100 lbs. There will be no stopping me.
Nope, it's Colorado.Pack Meat
Jul 2, 2002 11:45 AM
So I know that I'll havr BiPedZed as stiff competition as I could not beat him in the early season TT series and I'm starting to guess that Broken Spoke is an area rider as well.
Well then........Justin Credible
Jul 2, 2002 12:49 PM
Forget about it. If you don't know enough about power output to see how far off your calculations were, you REALLY don't stand a chance. Trust me, there will be tons of strong, more motivated, and better trained cyclists. The only reason you should show up is to cheer them on and see what you'll never become. It's always fun to laugh at the morons who think they can win a race with a slide ruler instead of their legs. If Lemond had trusted the calculations in the '89 Tour, he never would have showed up for the final time trial.
sort of harsh, isn't it?DougSloan
Jul 2, 2002 1:03 PM
If the guy has done a 56, that's nothing to laugh at. Probably faster than 99% of the folks on this site. The guy is looking for help.

Doug
NicePack Meat
Jul 2, 2002 1:22 PM
The one freaking time I actually look at the math to determine where I stand and everybody jumps all over me. I knew that the numbers sounded pretty freak'n high when I posted but does it matter. What's with you? Do you just go to races with no concept of what it takes to win the event. Are you racing just to support the sport, thanks. I was attempting set an end of season goal, there's a crit the day before the state TT, I could train for the crit and do well or I could train for the TT. I was attempting to determine if I trained my ass off for the TT could I do well there, can I make that much of a gain in 6 weeks? Do you actually believe that Lemond didn't know what he needed to average in order to win?

Please change your name from Justin Credible to Justin Ch, isn't that your porn name.

Hugs and kisses.
NiceJustin Credible
Jul 2, 2002 4:37 PM
Hey, I'm just being honest and adding in a little negative reinforcement.
A TT is your one chance to say "Screw the other riders, I'm going to race against myself. I'm going to set a realistic goal aim for it."
Even if totally accurate calculations said that you'd need to put out 1,000 watts for an hour in order to win, and you know damn well it's beyond your capabilities, there's no reason to skip the race. You'll get more self satisfaction if you challenge yourself with a more realistic mark to aim for.
Approach "A" for the TT is to set a certain time as your goal.
Approach "B" is to make winning the overall your one and only goal.
Let's say you choose approach "A" and beat your goal by 30 seconds, but wind up finishing 20th overall. I guarantee you'll learn more and be happier than if you choose approach "B" and finish second overall.
Why not do both races. Lots of racers do that. You might aim for a top 10 finish in the crit, then set a goal for the TT based on how well you feel. You'll get a chance to race twice and a great opportunity to see how well you recover from one day to the next. If you do well in the crit, then suck ass in the TT, at least you've learned something about your fitness and how well you recover.
re: State TT Champs- - Wattage Requirementkaiser
Jul 2, 2002 10:02 AM
You should bother doing the TT. Do not bother doing any more math.
okPack Meat
Jul 2, 2002 10:03 AM
nm
I think you can do itSherpa23
Jul 2, 2002 10:49 AM
Honestly, with the right training, I don't see why you couldn't break 53 min or even 52. Given the speeds of the cat. 3 races here, and you can finish in the pack, you should be able to pull it out. Even if your experiment this weekend tells you that you may not be able to hold the speed, don't worry about it and focus on the weaker parts of your fitness that prevent you from maintaining the speed. You have 6 weeks. 6 weeks is plenty of time to get to the 52 minute range from your previous time.
Just race!! trust meGV
Jul 2, 2002 12:12 PM
I did a pretty similar calculation on the Estes TT this year. I calculated the avg MPH I would have to hold to be in the top few. I looked at the Pro 1,2 times and figured were I should be and determined I had to ride at something like 24mph on the 3% grade. So come race time I jump out and hold 24mph. The problem is I totally blew up and ended up at like 18mph just suffering by the end. I am usually not too bad at TT's but that was the worst I ever had. After I talked to some of the pro 1,2 guys I found out they had a big tail wind the day they did it. So lesson learned do not go by MPH or time. Do a few TT's to learn what the effort needs to feel like for that length of time and go with that.
THATS HIGH...but so am I.....LMAO.Canidraftyou
Jul 3, 2002 8:53 AM
Just Do It. Too much thought into it. Ride just above your LTH and hang on. If you ever watch a Race Horse he starts fast and settles in, and then between the last two furlongs his body stretchs...reaching for every thing he has, also opening his lungs. If your able to sprint at the end, you not putting enough effort out during the run (race). But should nothing wrong with finding your MHR in the closing minutes. If done right, the greatest thing about crossing the finish line is not where you placed, its the feeling that you done your best! If you get to caught up in hte numbers game, you'll stop racing without proper coaching.

Peace,

Peace