|Heres a typical bad decision||longfellow68|
Jun 11, 2002 9:35 AM
|I'm in the 4/5 crit and theres a break with 2 teams represented and 1 independent. Well, I notice the large team doesn't have a man in the break, so I think to myself that they got to get up front and pull it back before the finish. I'm thinking to myself... "why the hell aren't they doing nothing...Maybe I should try to pull it back myself.." but I start thinking about the finish and saving something.. I finish in the top 10 after the sprint.
Then I go over and look at results and that 1 independent guy was on the large team, but he wasn't wearing the team jersey.
Yeah, were racing for pennies, but damn, a team sport, maybe a rule to wear team uniforms is to much??
I would have chased that break if I'd known...
I was wondering why the pace kinda slowed.. But it never crossed my spinning head at the time..
Maybe this will force me to be a Cat 2 or something. I think they are required to wear matching uniforms (USCF).
Jun 11, 2002 11:50 AM
|Sounds like this wasn't you. The guy did violate the rule about wearing the team jersey. I guess now we know the reason for the rule.
Reading breaks -- isn't that one of the most difficult aspects of racing? Do you just go with every one to be safe? I guess you could if you have the legs.
|it's called "collusion" and it happens all the time||lonefrontranger|
Jun 12, 2002 6:42 AM
|There aren't any specific rules stating that you MUST wear your team's jersey below Cat II level. Doug's reiteration merely proves that it's not specifically spelled out. There are rules about how the club name appears on your kit, but this doesn't mean you can't wear a plain jersey and ride for a team if this year's team kit hasn't come in, you haven't been able to buy it, or a new team has formed mid-season (very common situations). Later in the year, you'll often see groups of guys in plain or mixed-bag jerseys working together; this probably means they are in agreement to form a team for the next season.
Also, there's no rule stating that a free agent can't be in collusion with another team. My SO and one of his LVC buddies ride in collusion with a Rocky Mounts / Boulder Chaos guy because the rest of the LVC and Rocky Mounts Cat 4s never show up to races. Any one of the following factors could have been in play:
* they might have signed this guy to their team late and not had team kit available for him (happens)
* they might be in agreement that this person will ride for the team next season and are checking to see how their dynamic works
* he might be a first - year rider on the team who didn't have enough $ to buy more than one jersey, and that one's dirty (also happens).
* he might just be a good buddy of some of the guys on the team, this wasn't a focus event for them and/or their team leader isn't present, so they ride for their buddy instead.
Never assume that just because a strong team doesn't have someone obviously in a breakaway, this isn't actually the case. From the description you gave, it sounds like it was fairly obvious this team was blocking, but then it's easy to be armchair lieutenant. Learning how to read a field takes time, and it's not so easy when you're maxed out.
Collusion is rampant in women's races. SOP is 1 or perhaps 2 teams with multiple representatives, then lots of free agents who ride for the typical two-dozen-guys-and-one-woman squads. There tend to be "sororities" of free agents who get along well and will work for each other. If you don't learn to "read the pack" to see this happening, *and* gain alliances with other gals, you'll wind up a frustrated outsider. One of the better breakaways I ever rode was when a good friend of mine from Bluegrass Cycling Club blocked for me on a day when their team leader didn't happen to be racing. I split my win money with her just as I would if we were on the same team. There were also plenty of days that the BCC gals either blocked me from bridging up to their team leader or chased me down then countered and I got left in the pack. That's bike racing. Like shirt so poignantly reminded us in the thread below, it's a game.
Sooo, the moral of the thread: if it *seems* like a team (or group of riders, regardless of kit) is blocking, 99% of the time this means that they ARE blocking, and it's up to everyone else to do something about it.
Jun 12, 2002 6:50 AM
|I guess the bottom line is to race a lot and get to know the people there.
...or, just get super strong and go with every break :-)
|it's called "collusion" and it happens all the time||longfellow68|
Jun 12, 2002 7:27 AM
|Not to drag it on, but it actually wasn't obvious their man was in the break. The other two rider's breakaway teams were at the front of the pack mostly.
With 4 laps or so to go, I had only a small amount of time to make a decision. Either try to bridge or sit in and wait for it to get reeled in. I was counting on the reeled in scenario. Which I believe was the correct decision based on what was going on. But after 1 or 2 laps wondering why the big team isn't doing anything, the break was a little to far away and 1 lap left.
The team member in incognito wins the thing.
|re: Heres a typical bad decision||Fender|
Jun 11, 2002 8:12 PM
|looks like it was not a bad decision on your part, but more of a cheater!!! You did have the right to protest and have him DQ for not wearing his team jersey. Next time be a little more careful with breaks. Here's my strategy, two or more guys in a break, and I'm following!!! Or one strong guy from a largely represented team, and I'm working with him.|
|I looked at rulebook||longfellow68|
Jun 12, 2002 2:35 AM
|Theres a rule for stage races where they say specifically that you have to wear team uniforms.
But, I see nothing except the fraud rule.
Where you can't wear a uniform of some other team falsely.
IL3. UCI Trade teams, Cat 1 and 2, have to wear identifilby similiar uniforms.
I'm not sure there is a rule, ecspecially at the cat 4/5 level.
Only rule I've really seen enforced is the sleeveless one.
Jun 12, 2002 5:37 AM
1L. Members' Uniform.
The following rules apply to all riders other than those with one-day licenses:
1L1. The rider and uniform must be clean at the beginning of a race. Uniforms may be any color but helmets, shoes, or clothes that are torn, or in disrepair may not be used.
1L2. Rider uniform advertising.
Advertising may appear only on the uniform, including caps, shoes, and helmet of riders who are racing members of sponsored clubs [disqualification for other advertising]. The club's name must appear on the front and back or two sides of the jersey. The name may be abbreviated.
1L3. UCI Trade Teams, Category 1 and 2 riders who are members of the same Team or club must wear identifiably similar uniforms when competing in a massed start race except where different uniforms are called for by the Federation regulations [0ffending rider not permitted to start if noted before the race; otherwise, warning for first offense].
1L4. Club Jerseys. In competition, no rider shall wear the emblem, inscription, or uniform of any club or team which the rider is not eligible to represent [Offending rider may not be permitted to start if noted before the race; otherwise, warning for first offense].
1L5. Only current Federation National Champions may wear National Championship jerseys and only in the specialty and age group in which the title was won. However, juniors may ride with their jersey in any age group and masters may ride in any masters age group provided that is the same specialty in which the jersey was won. Members of sponsored clubs may place advertising on the front and back of the jersey in a rectangle 10 cm high and on the sleeves in a single line a maximum of 5 cm high. Only former Federation National Champions are permitted to wear the Stars and Stripes pattern on the trim of their jerseys.
1L6. National Team Jerseys. Members of Federation teams must wear the uniform designated by the Federation. This uniform may be worn only while actually representing the Federation or the USA.
1L7. In stage races, the race leader or those heading other categories may wear a special jersey provided by the race organizer, but only for the duration of the race and as long as the leadership lasts. The jersey may bear only the name of the race or the special classification.
1L8. No rider shall wear a World Championship jersey or colors (blue-red-black-yellow-green stripes in any order) in a race unless entitled to do so under international rules. Only former world champions are permitted to wear the world championship colors on the trim of their jerseys.
4D1. All riders of a given team shall wear identical jerseys in all stages; however, the race leader and each leader in other categories shall wear special jerseys provided by the organizer, provided that one is supplied that fits the rider concerned. Leadership jerseys may bear only the name of the race and the special classification and may be worn only for the duration of the race and as long as the leadership lasts.
Jun 12, 2002 6:09 AM
|Damn, i wrote a reply and it never saved... sigh
I was going to say that:
"The club's name must appear on the front and back or two sides of the jersey."
Is only referring to the positioning of advertising on the jersey. Its not saying you HAVE to have something on the jersey.
It says: "Advertising MAY appear only on the uniform..etc.."
Why did they use "MAY" there.. damn thats terrible.
I think theres a gray area.. but I think for low level races they don't want to put strict rules out.
Its hard to interpret this rule from whats written there.
Jun 12, 2002 6:23 AM
|I read it to say that if you belong to a club, the club's name must appear in those locations.
Under the next rule, though, the rule differentiates between pros, 1's and 2's, and all others in requiring similar uniforms.
Reading the rules together, I interpret them to mean that for a Cat 4, for example, if you belong to a club, the club's name must appear as designated, but the riders on the same club need not have similar uniforms. This would allow one member to use this year's jersey, and another one from 2 years ago, for example.
That make sense?
I know some of these USCF officials are real "clothes Nazi's." In another forum a guy discussed a rider showing up at a USCF Public category time trial, and was required to cover up a California Triple Crown (double centuries) jersey because it appeared to be too similar to a state championship jersey (state emblem). I got all bent out of shape over this, as it seemed pretty stupid -- what was the chance of confusion there? Why alienate people from racing, right off the bat?
Jun 12, 2002 6:40 AM
|Yeah, I understand your line of thinking, but its to confusing to figure this stuff out. And to many people's interpretations make it a mess.
I couldn't imagine filling a protest and having to go by this rule. I'll have to ask the local official and see what he/she thinks. Maybe this can be solved.
I'll bring a lawyer to the next race... haha...
Yeah I saw a guy line up with a sleeveless jersey and have to remove it and put on a normal jersey and another with a Saeco jersey he had to remove. Both in Cat 5 races.
I'd have to say I'd agree with the decisons there.