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What's up with this Garzelli non-negative(15 posts)

What's up with this Garzelli non-negativeallervite
May 21, 2002 12:56 PM
Probenecid is not performance enhancing, and is not an effective masking agent (althought it once was). Also, it stays in the body for a very long time and is easily detectable. He tested positive on stage two and not stage three or four. This is highly unlikely. If his samples from stage one and the prolouge are also negative than having it in his body on stage 2 is impossible.

Knowing what I know about cheating in racing, I would have to admit that sabotage is a possibility. Eddy Merkx swore that he was sabotaged in the first Giro he raced in.

There was also a phone call from a prosecutor before the analysis was even made asking if Garzelli had tested positive. Was this a premature tip off?

If Garzelli is a cheat, he deserves the worse; but it would be a shame for a guy to be pulled from a major race and possibly have his career ruined because someone else is a cheat.
I'm ruined!Wayne
May 21, 2002 1:13 PM
It all sounds so suspicious, I don't doubt he may have been taking drugs like any number of the pros (just look at the whole Panaria affair), but to get caught for a drug with no known performance enhancing, even masking ability just doesn't make sense. Why take a diuretic if it's not going to mask anything since even mild dehydration is known to lead to a significant performance drop and probably greatly increases the liklihood of you're hematocrit going above 50%? And last but not least, this has ruined all of my fantasy teams since Garzelli was on everyone of them!
I love those games!allervite
May 21, 2002 1:55 PM
I have all my money invested in Casagrande and Frigo. Once bitten twice shy I hope.
I actually had a shot..Wayne
May 22, 2002 7:18 AM
at winning something on the Performance one. One of my teams was 2nd for a few days and then 3rd for the last two, out of almost 1200 entries. Another one has been hovering in the 30's, but not only do I no longer have Garzelli they've even taken all his points away!
Wow!allervite
May 22, 2002 8:18 PM
The closest I have ever come is 90th. I'm in 130th right now, but I have a lot of climbers. I just lost Robbie MCewen though.

Are you doing the Campy one. It is reall cool, but I missed san Remo for the overall year. I'm in 190th now which is really not that bad since I missed and entire event.
I dunno, is Simoni a coke-head?RockyMountainRacer
May 23, 2002 7:11 AM
I think this whole "drug scandal" is pretty weird. I don't see any reason why Garzelli would take the Probenicid when it wouldn't enhance his performance or mask something that would. The only reason to take the drug is to get thrown out of a race, which makes me think something fishy is going on here.

And furthermore, since when do professional cyclists snort coke? I tend to doubt that Simoni is a closet coke-head, as I think it would be very hard for a rider of that stature to be an addict. So I kind of believe him, but since when do dentists use cocaine as an anaesthetic?

This whole thing is just way to weird...
My ramblings..Wayne
May 23, 2002 9:10 AM
I think you've bought a little too heavily into the media/government hype that everyone who uses illicit drugs is an addict. A number of my friends have in the past or currently use recreational drugs of one kind or another from time to time (or more frequently) but the only "addicts" I know are a few borderline alcoholics. As to pro cyclists using cocaine, you should read Willy Voets book about his time as a soigneur. He talks about the french team celebrating Brochards world championships victory in Columbia by sampling some of the local stuff that has put Columbia on the map (and I'm not talking about coffee). From what I've gathered from people who have raced over there and just observing the sport in general is that there is a pretty heavy "drug" culture surrounding pro cycling and it starts young. I think it's probably pretty comparable to the "supplement" culture that exists in this country. Some people go overboard, some find a happy medium, and some do it on bread and water alone.
My ramblings..RockyMountainRacer
May 23, 2002 10:12 AM
No, as a recent college graduate I know quite a bit about drug culture, and I certainly don't buy into the "hype that everyone who uses illicit drugs is an addict." However, as I was also on a highly competitive NCAA Division III Varsity lacrosse team, I know how much even recreational drug use can affect an athlete at a high level of competition (particularly the drugs you smoke!). So what I was getting at is that it seems to me that even occasional use of a "hard" drug like cocaine would be very detrimental to the performance of someone as finely tuned as Simoni--a Giro champion has to be in remarkable physical condition obviously. But I am talking from inexperience here, as I do not personally know anyone who has used cocaine and I certainly haven't. I can imagine it may enhance performance due to the stimulant effect.

But the drugs many of my teammates would take (weed and psychedelics primarily), would screw up performance drastically. I am not going to admit to anything here by the way! Marijuana is obviously not good for the lungs, but it is most detrimental to performance by making you into a wuss. It takes away your drive and killer instinct and causes you to lose your edge. It makes an athlete apathetic and unwilling to suffer. Now obviously marijuana and cocaine are very different but you can see what I'm getting at here...an athlete at the highest level of competition likely cannot still win after accepting these limitations (IMHO).
Maybe he didn't take to enhance performance...Wannabe
May 23, 2002 12:37 PM
The discussion has revovled around why would simoni take coke to enhance performance? The answer is he most likely wouldn't! Obviously he wasn't racing the day he said he went to the dentist!.

I agree with you in that I doubt he took coke to enhance his cycling performance. But I am starting to doubt the claim he didn't do coke. The drug test showed the tell-tale signs of cocaine, not carbocaine or whatever the simoni camp is claiming.

Andy
According to Willy Voet...Wayne
May 23, 2002 1:50 PM
alot of these guys are a good bit less than finely tuned athletes, and many of the good ones are finely tuned athletes that are willing to take whatever their trusted soigneur tells them is undetectable and will increase their chances of winning. He tells the story of sitting around a table before a post-tour criterium as everyone shot up with aphetamines (easily detectable but they all knew there were no drug controls since it wasn't an official race). There were a couple of Giro winners, a tour winner, a world champion, you get the idea! Alot of top guys willing to take a charge just because it was available. If Simoni was doing coke, I'm sure it wasn't for any performance benefit, afterall he was tested the night before the race started, if anything it would have just kept him awake and tired for the next day. Oh, I have a couple of friends (mountain bikers, go figure) who swear by smoking marijuana before most rides and every race. They say it helps put you into a kind of hypnotic trance of total focus on the race and that they can suffer much more when stoned than straight. I don't think I'd do it before a race, but to each his own.
What's the Voet book?RockyMountainRacer
May 23, 2002 2:20 PM
It sounds good, I will have to read that one. This book sounds similar to one I read a few years ago "A rough ride" by Paul Kimmage. He was an Irish tour-riding racer who talked all about the rampant drug use in the pro peloton in this book. This was about 20 years ago. How recent is the Voet book? Man, I have to say it really is a shame that cycling has the reputation of being "the dirtiest sport in the world," but there is obviously a reason for that reputation (hmmmmm, this years Giro?).
What's the Voet book?Wayne
May 24, 2002 4:09 AM
"Breaking the Chain" by Willy Voet. He's a belgium who was a soigneur for upteen years and was with Festina (Virenque's personal go-to guy) when the whole tour debacle occurred. He was the guy driving the car loaded with all of Festinas dope for the Tour that was stopped and searched and led to the whole Festina affair. I think the Festina thing probably ended organized systematic team doping but clearly individuals are still doing it. Apparently the English version leaves out all of the names (so it just says a Giro winner, etc.) which are in the original French version because of our tougher libel laws. Voet paints a pretty pathetic picture of the whole pro cycling scene, where basically a soigneurs reputation and ability to get a job was largely based on his ability to dope riders effectively. Willy was even "famous" amongst the soigneurs for devising a way to beat the early urine tests. I've read Kimmage's book also but Voet's is better since he was a real insider to the whole scene.
cool, I'll read it (nm)RockyMountainRacer
May 24, 2002 7:17 AM
I dunno, is Simoni a coke-head?schimanski
May 23, 2002 11:16 AM
Cocaine when taken in small doses and with right timing can improve endurance, but you'll get caught with about 100% certainty. So where's the point in doing it?

And yes, cocaine was/is used as a local anaesthetic by dentists, though it is not very common these days and it doesn't read 'cocaine' on the bottle, 'coke' is simply one highly potent ingredient in some of the local anaesthetics.
I dunno, is Simoni a coke-head?Wannabe
May 23, 2002 12:39 PM
But they're not claiming cocaine was used, but rather carbocaine. The two show up in drug tests differently.

Andy