|How do Cytomax help a racer?||flyinbowlofmilk|
Apr 25, 2002 3:51 PM
|I just got back from my 1st Cat4/5 crit . After the crit the gave us free bottles of Cytomax to drink. I drink most of it because I was tired and need to refuel after the Crit. The taste of the Cytomax almost made me puke it back up. It tasted bland to me. I am use to drinking to Gatorade,but I was wondering if there was difference between the 2 sports drink?. And which one would be good for me to drink as a New Cat 5 racer. advice would be appreciated.|
|Before, during, or after?||Kerry|
Apr 25, 2002 4:58 PM
|During a Cat 4/5 crit you're not likely to need any fuel - the race is too short to give the food time to get into your blood and do you any good. Before a race, you want to make sure that you are well-fueled, and there are a number of strategies to do this, including eating regular food far enough in advance of the race to have it mostly digested (2-3 hours is typical). The advantage of Cytomax over Gatorade is maltodextrin (sugar polymer) vs. simple sugars and fructose. So the Cytomax is less likely to give you a sugar buzz (followed by a crash) since the maltodextrin digests more slowly than the simpler sugars in Gatorade. After the race, regular food works fine too. The reason to use any energy drink is convenience, not performance. Any performance advantage comes because you may be more likely to use it than eating food. I agree that Cytomax doesn't taste that great, but neither does Gatorade, IMO.|
Apr 26, 2002 7:34 AM
|but no cigar!
See Peloton's reply below for why they use maltodextrin rather than simple sugars. It's osmality, not fear of a sugar crash. Your explanation is perfectly good for the non-exercising condition but when exercising most/all of your glucose transporters are already at the cell surfaces so insulin can't increase their numbers anyway, and cause a subsequent blood glucose crash.
You also say, "The reason to use any energy drink is convenience, not performance." Actually it is performance, most of the drinks are designed to provide optimal hydration and glucose. Food or other drinks with higher sugar content are going to compromise either one or the other.
Apr 27, 2002 12:41 PM
|All these years I've been believing the stuff published about the "2nd generation" sports drinks: "maltodextrin metabolizes more evenly so you stay on an even keel." But, a Google search brings up the following "Maltodextrin's glycemic index should be considered metabolically equivalent to glucose (dextrose)." There you have it. Wrong again! Damn.
So the only real advantage of Cytomax over Gatorade is that you don't get those little green sweaters on your teeth on a long ride, because the maltodextrin gets digested in your stomach, not in your mouth.
|how'd the crit go, FBM?||weiwentg|
Apr 25, 2002 6:02 PM
|hope it went well. even if it didn't, it's a learning experience.
anyway, after a race, it's a good idea to get protein and carbs into the system to refuel and repair muscle damage. intense exercise creates microscopic tears in muscle fibers, and protein is required to repair them (some people think lactic acid causes muscle soreness, but it's actually the micro-tears). it's best to take something like whey protein, which is very easily digested and broken down into amino acids (sure peloton will disagree with me here).
|how'd the crit go, FBM?||flyinbowlofmilk|
Apr 26, 2002 4:26 PM
|My first crit went like this. I did a couple of warm-up laps with a team meber before the crit started. Although he was a Cat 4 racer. The start of the crit went off with little problem. I had a little problem of clipping in ,but otherwise a smooth start. I proceeded to stay with the pack which was composed of Cat4/5 until the acceleration in lap 6. After that I manage to keep my speed up to 19.9 mph ,so they wouldn't lap me until lap 11. That when I got pulled because I got lapped. Overall I surprise myself when I did almost 20mph through most of the crit. I found out that I can corner very good without using the brakes and how to follow the line. Wish me luck this weekend. I am going to do my second crit.|
|Glucose and osmolality||peloton|
Apr 25, 2002 10:00 PM
|The idea behind Cytomax is the maltodextrin. Maltodextrin is a glucose polymer derived from corn syrup made up of medium sized chains of glucose. The idea behind using these medium sized chains of glucose instead of molecules of glucose like Gatorade is that they can add more of them to a water solution while still keeping the same osmolality. Osmolality refers to the process of osmosis, and the amount of a substrate disolved in a solution. In theory, they can now add more glucose to the solution for energy without hindering the bodies ability to extract water from the solution. Higher concentrations of carbs (glucose molecules) can slow the gastric emptying rate of water. So basically they say that there is now the same ratio of carbs to water in the two solutions, but the maltodextrin solution should contain more sustained energy due to the medium sized chains of glucose instead of single molecules. It looks good in theory. The problem is that the osmolality of the maltodextrin solution doesn't hold up. The small intestine quickly breaks down the glucose chains, and this raises the osmolality of the solution in the digestive system quite quickly, and this slows absorbtion. Basically, the small intestine breaks the maltodextrin down so quickly it is as if you merely consumed a larger amount of glucose molecules to begin with, instead of taking in the medium sized chains. You lose the benefit of the increased energy with the same osmolality. The body can't extract all the glucose from the chains at the amount that is now present.
The stomach has proteins in it's lining that have special transporters for glucose, and others for fructose. The glucose transporters work a lot faster than the fructose transporters, and so a glucose solution will be aborbed faster, and leave the stomach more quickly. This is good for exercise. If you are consuming a 6% glucose solution like Gatorade the stomach has enough of these receptors to take the glucose out almost as fast as it comes in. This would be at a rate of 8oz to every 20 minutes. The maltodextrin breaks down and overloads these transporters, slowing absorbtion. Studies have shown that a 7% carb solution taken in at the 20min/80z rate will promote gastric emptying as fast as water. The glucose in the solution will also promote better absorbion of water and electrolytes. The sodium is added to Gatorade to aid these transporters for glucose/fructose to work. Basically, they need the sodium to work as fast as possible. The sodium helps to promote absorbtion and to maintain electrolyte balance. There is also sucrose or fructose in both drinks, and this has also been shown to aid the amount of water and electrolytes absorbed. The fructose receptors, while slower, also work to absorb some of the solution into the body when the glucose receptors are working at maximal capacity. Drinks containing a higher solution of glucose, and some fructose are the best at maintaining water absorbtion, electrolytes, and energy. There are studies to back this up.
Basically, both Gatorade and Cytomax hope to do the same thing. They contain a similar ratio of carbs to water in their solution, while also brining in electrolytes for increased absorbtion and to replace what has been lost in sweat during exercise. Cytomax hopes to bring in more energy at the same level of osmolality as Gatorade through medium sized glucose chains instead of glucose molecules. It backfires somewhat though in the way the small intestine ruins this advantage in osmolality slowing absorbtion. A glucose solution with a little sucrose or fructose is still probably your best bet, like Gatorade. Still, play around with what works best for you. Some people do better with some flavors in terms of what won't make them sick during periods of exertion.
It is also a good idea to take in a carb/protein solution after exercise to promote better liver and muscle glycogen stores and muscle repair.
|Darn, cut off...||peloton|
Apr 25, 2002 11:01 PM
|Anyway, It is a good idea to take in a solution of protein and carbs after exercise to rebuild muscle tissue, and to help to replace lost muscle and liver glycogen stores. You could use a solution of whey protein like was suggested, but it's an expensive fix and probably overkill for protein synthesis. A simple glass of milk with five teaspoons of white table sugar (sucrose) will work about as well as anything, and is cheap to make. The sucrose replaces lost glycogen without spiking the blood sugar too high, creating an insulin spike which could reduce the amount of liver and muscle gylcogen replaced. The protein in 8oz of milk is also enough to rebuild muscle broken down during exercise, and is compete protein of very high quality. The majority experts agree that protein supplements are not needed, and are pretty much a rip-off.|
Apr 26, 2002 6:33 AM
|Great stuff Peloton. I really appreciate the knowledge you bring to this board.
Apr 26, 2002 6:38 AM
|Hey peloton, can you get enough sucrose from what is already in Chocolate Milk or should you put in more? This stuff is just sooooo good after a long ride. Do you think it is as good as regular Milk with sugar in it? Also, does the fat percentage of the Milk matter in terms of protein/carbohydrate absorbtion?|
Apr 26, 2002 10:37 AM
|Most of the sports nutrition literature advise that drinks/foods consumed immediately after exercise should have a high glycemic index (a measure of how fast the drink/food raises blood sugar levels), so that the carbs in the drink/food can get into the blood stream quickly in order to replace the stored carbs (glycogen) that were depleted during the exercise.
I used to mix skim milk with lots of QUIK mix for recovery, but after some research, I found that the glycemic index of chocolate milk is low, same for regular milk. Skim milk improves a little but is still low, and milk with sugar improves a little more but is still low.
My new routine is to gulp some sports drink (or other high glycemic index food or drink) immediately after the ride, then go for the choc. milk a little bit later, after the carbs in the sports drink have had some time to absorb.
|[real] Chocolate Milk?||DougSloan|
Apr 26, 2002 1:14 PM
|A lot of chocolate "milk" I've seen doesn't have much milk in it. It's a lot of corn syrup and other stuff.
Is corn syrup fructose?
|[real] Chocolate Milk?||peloton|
Apr 26, 2002 6:19 PM
|Corn syrup is mostly fructose, with some sucrose if I'm not mistaken. If that is what your chocolate milk contains, then it wouldn't be as glycemic as a sucrose solution like table sugar. This wouldn't spike your blood sugar as much. The PhD's that I have contact with have reccomended this to me for post exercise muslce and liver glycogen restoration. Drink Gatorade at a rate of 8oz per 20 minutes for a couple of hours. This will keep your blood sugar at a level where your liver and muscles can take some of the glucose for their stores. Any more will raise the blood sugar enough to cause an insulin spike. Insulin creates adipose tissue (fat) with the excess blood glucose, and the liver allows the excess to pass by without restocking on glycogen. After those couple of hours, eat your regular meal with some protein to repair muscle tissue. This way you get adequate glycogen stores, and muscle restoration. I know that there are studies out there that state that what you consume immediately after exercise doesn't make a difference in liver glycogen stores 24 hours after exercise. The studies point to doing something like above to only contributing to liver glycogen stores being replenished faster only 8 hours after excercise instead of 24 like would otherwise happen from normal diet. I think it still makes a difference though to help maintain adequate stores of glycogen. Think of it this way- How long do you do without doing any physical exertion for 24 hours? If you exercise sometimes twice a day, or frequently without a 24 hour break. (Life also can wear out your stores) you can take away a little each day. Over time this can lead to decreased stores of glycogen and decreased performance. I think it is important to replenish your glycogen stores with something after exercise to help maintain long term performance and to avoid overtraining.
I really hadn't thought much about chocolate milk. I guess it would be better than nothing, although maybe not as good as some options. I guess the type of sugar used in your chocolate milk (fructose, sucrose) and the amount would make the biggest difference. You probably will find a lot of fructose here like Doug said. You would still have the protein there. It could be a good option if you don't have the time to sit around drinking Gatorade for a couple of hours. It would also be a cheaper solution. The sports drinks like Gatorade are great too for performance. The milk/sucrose is just another solution that can work well with ease and lack of cost.
|Question for Peloton (and others): Accelerade Effects||skimoviestar|
Apr 27, 2002 11:12 PM
|Peloton... another question... What about Accelerade? When I use it on a distance/aerobic ride, it seems to work well. However, when I use it on a fast group ride or crit practice, or when I use it on long ride and a fast jump or steep/long hill climb is required, the Accelerade doesn't seem to have the punch... in fact, fairly quickly after I take it I tend to feel a bit more lethargic for a little while. Does the protein mixed into this stuff make it incompatable for 45-60 minute hard efforts? Should I change my fueling for short, hard ride efforts?|
|Question for Peloton (and others): Accelerade Effects||peloton|
Apr 29, 2002 12:36 AM
|For any ride under 90 minutes I just use plain old water. Your body has enough glycogen stores to deal with rides of this duration without having to consume any additional form of energy during.
I'm not exactly sure about the ratios of carbs to protein in accelerade. I know the theory behind it is to promote insulin in the bloodstream so that the muscle tissues can more effectively make use of the sugar taken in. I have also seen that accelerade contains sucrose, fructose, and maltodrextrin for it's sugars. I assume that it is in this order from the largest amount to the smallest from glancing at a label today. Maybe there is just too much protein or fructose in there for fast gastric emptying (how fast it goes through your stomach). Sucrose turns into glucose and fructose in the stomach. Your stomach takes more time to break down fructose than glucose. Maltodextrin is a glucose polymer. Too much fructose could slow gastric emptying. Depends on the ratios of carbs here. If that is the case, it could make you feel more lethargic by 'backing up' the stomach. Protein also breaks down slowly, being less glycemic. Both the protein or fructose could contribute. During exercise, it is probably better to take in highly glycemic food sources for quick energy, like simple sugars. Or it could be that you are just taking it in too fast. These sports drinks are all meant to be taken in at a certain rate. If you consume it too fast for your stomach to break it down, then you will overwork your stomach's ability to digest the drink and empty. This can make you feel tired or even sick. Maybe you should play around with alternating energy drink and water? Or maybe for your short rides plain water would work best for you. Some of it is personal experimentation to see what works for you.
|Peloton -- I'll try that. Thanks for the info... nm||skimoviestar|
Apr 30, 2002 9:14 AM