|WTF's up with a $30 entry fee for Stazio and the other one?||dcm311|
Apr 6, 2002 9:28 PM
|Why is the entry fee $30 and no juniors race free? If Colorado Outdoor Sports cared about cycling rather than making money, they would realize they are alienating many juniors by having such a pricey entry fee. Out of the nine people on my team ONE raced--only because his parents paid for it.|
|Welcome to Colorado racing,||TJeanloz|
Apr 8, 2002 4:40 AM
|Where it's all about the benjamins. Colorado Outdoor Sports doesn't care about cycling more than making money. ACA racing is truely messed up vis-a-vis priorities. But the Front Range is so full of self-obsessed people that (practically) no club will put a race on without farming it out to a promoter to do all the work and take all the cash. In this regard, it's very refreshing to be back in New England where the pace car is a beat up Camero instead of a new Mercedes.|
|Most ACA races aren't THAT bad, but||dcm311|
Apr 8, 2002 5:07 AM
|Colorado Outdoor Sports is just ripping people off. I can't believe the turnout! Back when Chris Grealish put on both races (two years ago?), the entry fee was $13, juniors raced free, and it was a higher quality event.
ACA should go back to requiring all races to let juniors race free and set a price cap on events--$15 for a crit, $25 for a long road race, etc.
|Most ACA races aren't THAT bad, but||TJeanloz|
Apr 8, 2002 7:14 AM
|It was my experience that most ACA races were that bad. Grealish was no saint when it came to cashing in, stiffing the clubs that helped him, and really being a bastard to his volunteers. I don't think anybody is getting ripped off- it's your choice to race or not to. If anybody is ripping anybody off, it's the ACA who uses its licensing cartel to only permit one race per weekend.
And then the question becomes, if they are making money, is that a problem? Should promoters do it for the 'good of the sport'? I'm all for them charging if they can get away with it.
As for the issue with juniors, I think its a crock. Maybe the appropriate thing would be to charge them 1% of their bikes value, not to exceed the full fee, for the race. I don't think the fee is holding back the juniors whose parents buy them a new Litespeed every year, who seem to be everywhere in CO.
|Being a junior...||dcm311|
Apr 8, 2002 1:24 PM
|Of course the issue is important. I traded driving for cycling (just turned 16) and just got the first bike from my parents for years (about eight years to be exact). It DID happen to be a Litespeed, but only because they were sponsering our team and giving us a killer deal. I buy all my cycling stuff with money from my job and py all mnt bike entry fees.
As for the promoters not making money--of course they have a right to profit. However, from whom are they going to profit if no one races anymore. If ridicoulous entry fees continue road racing may see the slump DH is seeing for the same finacial reason.
|Cry me a river,||TJeanloz|
Apr 8, 2002 2:52 PM
|And ride your Litespeed home. If you had spent half as much on your bike, and put the other half into entry fees, you would be just as fast, AND have money to race. Guess what, the rest of us buy all of our cycling stuff with money from our jobs. And I pay entry fees with money from my job.
If I don't think it's worth it, I don't enter (see Mt. Washington hillclimb this year for example). You need to decide what you want to spend your money on, and if you want to race bikes, entry fees are an expense.
|I was in no way complaining||dcm311|
Apr 8, 2002 3:39 PM
|and if I had spent half as much on my bike I would have a bike welded at K-MART with toe clips and shimano Tiagra rather than a Siena with Ultegra. On a side note, are you a friend of Beth's? You seem to get very defensive.
You're also right about choosing races that are worth it. They weren't worth it to me and many other juniors, so we didn't race. What is every promoter was greedy like Beth though? Note that she was at the ACA meeting and AGREED to continue to let juniors race free. What a hypocrit
On another sidenote--It doesn't matter that you buy your own stuff. Your an adult with a high paying job that no one still in school would be hired to work.
This is just a segment from Erik's e-mail that pretty much sums up the attitude of everyone I know.
I didn't race, mostly due to despising the promoter (Beth used to work
him)...I rode the course once and decided I wasn't paying $30 to do
I was wondering why I didn't see your name on the results....that's
that they didn't let Juniors race free since they were AT The meeting
everyone agreed to do that again this year...and $30 for ANY race is
|I dislike Beth more than anybody I know,||TJeanloz|
Apr 9, 2002 4:26 AM
|I really don't like Beth, or any of the ACA ilk. I think they're a bunch of crybabies who get mad when they don't make enough money. But regardless, it is their choice how much to charge, and your choice whether you pay it or not. I absolutely don't think juniors should ride for free. When I was a junior, I would have paid any fee, and made any sacrifice to race- because I REALLY liked to race my bike. Juniors, in Colorado in particular, all think that they're the next Jonathon Vaughters, and want to know what everybody else is going to do for them. The ACA is always sponsoring some junior team, giving them a pile of gear, and then the attitude is "I guess if you give me enough stuff, and free entries, I'll race my bike." When it should be: "I'll race anything I can get my hands on, even if it was welded on the K-Mart loading dock." In the meantime, there are guys too old to be juniors who are turning pro riding 7 speed RSX stuff, and thrilled to have the chance.
Actually, one of the best incentives I've seen is a free entry for an adult who drives a junior to the race.
My basic question is, and you seem to be well positioned to answer it: Why should we give juniors free entries, or any other concession? There may well be a good reason that I'm not seeing, and I'd like to be clued in.
|All they care about is the cash||RockyMountainRacer|
Apr 8, 2002 6:18 AM
|See my post below about "crit racing." For the mens 4 field at Stazio COS let over a hundred riders in the race, because there is no way they are going to limit the field. Why? Because they don't care about putting on a good race, they just want your cash. And because of that, there were a lot of crashes with one person seriously hurt. That guys blood is on their hands.|
|Unless you have organized a race you have no idea||Pack Meat|
Apr 8, 2002 6:44 AM
|what the hell you're talking about. It's not the organizers fault that a bunch of Cat 4s have no idea how to race thier bikes. I will admit that the Stazio is expensive compared to other races but it is in no way a get rich quick scheme. It is expensive to put on a race, very expensive in Colorado. My thought is that extra cash that they make at Stazio goes to pay for the awesome course at the Boulder Roubaix. In COlorado you have to pay cops to stand at all intersections on open roads. This is very expensive and is a large reason why there are not more road races here. Back in Illinois you can just throw any volunteer on the road with a flag and not worry about it.
Further the safety of the course is the responsibility of both the race organizer and the permitting organization. They both decide how many people are two many for that race. 100 people is not to much. If you think you can do better get your a$$ out there and organize a race, otherwise shut the hell up.
Disclaimer: I have no connections with the race organizer, as stated above I think Stazio sucks.
Apr 8, 2002 7:07 AM
|Field limits are the role of the chief official to approve. The promotor can make a recommendation, but any 'blood on the hands' goes to a chief official who signed off on the safety of the course for a given field size.|
|I will shut up||RockyMountainRacer|
Apr 8, 2002 7:50 AM
|Well allright guys. I've never organized a race and have no idea how much it costs, so I will take Pack Meats advice and "shut the hell up." He's also right that the people I saw crashing all over the place were riding like idiots. I just didn't expect to get ripped so hard by you folks...Sheesh! Why does it seem like cat 4's forget how to ride their bikes on race day? You'd think they'd learn how fast they can ride through a corner without crashing in training...|
|add a little salt||Mike-Wisc|
Apr 8, 2002 8:05 AM
|Don't let the apparent hostility of _some_ of the replies get to you. There are at least two sides to every issue, and the viewpoint of a competitor is just as valid as that of a spectator or of an official to some degree.
Chalk up the crash to race jitters, butterflies, nerves, early-season-itis, big-pack-itis, whatever. As was mentioned, things should settle down over the next few races. A lot of racers I've known will use the early races as final training to get their pack skills back into syncronicity. Many of them though will stay out of the meat grinders and washing machines of early packs (can't call them a peloton yet, too early, too rough). If you're focused more on the crash than the race, then I'd say to stay out of the middle-pack for now. Save the ear rubbing for your peak races, your "A" races, and use the early season to basically clean and fine tune your skillsets.
It's hard to race with a broken collarbone or taco'd wheelset. It's hard to win without bumping a few elbows in a crit. Most of us prefer to live somewhere closer to the middle of those two extreams, preferrably closer to the winner though.
Ride fast, ride well, race smart. Crashing sucks, components can be replaced, bodies usually heal, but the thrill of winning and of the competition is always a rush. Why else would people do this stuff. Couch potato or mashed potato, the bottom line is if you don't get outside and do it then you're just a spud. :) Your next race should fare much better, focus on that and train smart.
Apr 8, 2002 9:06 AM
|Try some triathlons before you complain about bike race fees; tri and duathletes pay quite a bit for an event. The two duathlons I've done, which I paid $45 and $60 for, did not have a prize list for anyone except the top five elite cat (I think). Instead, everyone gets a t-shirt, and the satisfaction of comparing their time to 850-1000 other multisport geeks on the day.
Maybe we should have gone into multisport promotions. It's like watching paint dry IMO, but daggone the promoters must make a bundle!
|race promotion and sponsership, getting started||Mike-Wisc|
Apr 8, 2002 7:52 AM
|A few years ago a local (at the time) team set up a race. Fairly nice crit thru a new subdivision. Course seemed nice to me, start/finish line at the middle of a straight with a slight elevation gain finishing and a slight downhill from the start, hard but wide right turn at the end leading into a swooping downhill, around a gentle arc at the bottom, leading to an medium-short uphill with a wide right at the top to take you back towards the start/finish line. Only a couple of critical manhole covers to learn and avoid. Relatively decent parking on adjacent streets outside of the subdivision. A little community mini-park in the middle for awards and setup.
Talking with some of the team members I learned just how much effort it was to get it all set up and approved. They had to get a buyoff from all the local residents, approval from the local Sheriff's department and county government. Then they had to get USCF sanctioning for the race course and event.
They said they'd have to run the race for three years in a row to break even on the effort and setup costs. I think they gave it up after the first race weekend due to a variety of factors (homeowner complaints and such). This was in Auburn California, up the hill from Sacramento, in case any locals out there remember the race and care to correct anything I posted about it.
Bottom line is that it does take a lot to properly run a race. I don't know what a fair cost to race in one would be, but do know my personal financial limits which is right now about $20/race depending on location and support and the event. I'd pay more if I were more than just a dust-bunny in the traildust of the pack, but probably not if I constantly got blown or blocked out of the rear.
Just posting another viewpoint to consider.
Mike in Wisc (where if I shake this cold I'll maybe be riding this weekend)
|You are right!||allervite|
Apr 8, 2002 12:02 PM
|Organize a race. Even a low budget deal will make your head spin. The only way to bring the cost down (if it can be brought down) is through competition.|
|I haven't organized a race, but...||dcm311|
Apr 8, 2002 1:30 PM
|through extensive talks with Chris Grealish, I have learned what it takes to do so. Renting streets and hiring cops and ambulances are the biggest expense. Insurance is through the ACA. If Brian Hzluoduski (no idea how to spell it) can put on a race for $10 at Stazio (a few weeks ago) and let juniors race free, why can't Beth do the same. I realize her race was bigger, but not three times bigger.|
|A few reasons,||TJeanloz|
Apr 8, 2002 2:48 PM
|First, full disclosure, I know most of the people involved pretty well and have been involved (though only peripherally) in organizing this race and others like it.
Brian can put the race on for cheap because he's a smart guy and knows how to put a race on for cheap. I wasn't there, so I don't know the exact logistics of it, but I'm willing to bet that he had volunteers (probably from CU)working diligently to pull the race off. He also has been good to his volunteers- so a lot of them return, and continue to help him out. Most promoters treat their volunteers like trash and expect them to love marshalling for 8 hours straight. Brian makes money on these races. But he has an economy of scale going- he promotes so many races that his fixed costs are amortized over several events, which allows him to run a lower margin.
Beth also has these economies of scale, and also knows the market very well, and knows what she can get away with. And she figures (as a lot of people do): "I put all of my effort into this race, how about a little something back?" And she is perfectly justified- people are willing to pay, she is willing to sell. But she (and many CO promoters, but typically not Brian) gets caught up in promoting an 'event' with all kinds of steel fencing and fancy spectator areas that are costly and completely unneccessary. It's all about money, and Brian is just happier with a smaller cut than Beth is.