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lonefrontranger...Diet help...(30 posts)

lonefrontranger...Diet help...DCepp
Mar 11, 2002 8:48 AM
I read your post(s) on Feb 26th concerning your eating habits and I am hooked. I was wondering if you could put together a grocery list for me. What to purchase on a weekly basis and good food choices? I am a clydesdale MTN biker looking to become an expert level 30-something MTN biker. But first I need to develop better eating habits.

Thanks on behalf of all views to your posts!
not lonefrontranger but here is a website...whydoyouask2dogs
Mar 11, 2002 9:52 AM has a breakdown of most of what she has mentioned by where they are in the store and where to find them. I started eating more like this 8 days ago and have seen results. Thank-you lonefrontranger.
best tip of all...lonefrontranger
Mar 11, 2002 10:29 PM
I'm sure you read this somewhere in one of my posts, but my secret is to stick to the perimeter of the store, and don't go down the aisles - the aisles are where 99% of the crap is.

Paleofood is a good site, and they have some fantastic recipe ideas there. There are a few way over-the top raw foodie ideas running around in there, but for the most part the reasoning is pretty sound.

Lots of fresh fruit; whatever you like. Navel oranges are excellent in our stores right now, and strawberries are coming into season. You can always find good apples and bananas are basically the only starch I do eat.

Get some fresh nuts in-shell as snacks/munchies. I personally like hazelnuts a lot (filberts).

Get whatever veggies you enjoy: broccoli, carrots, yams (sweet potatoes), squash, any kind of greens you like, either for salads or to steam (mustard greens are GREAT steamed with a little garlic and wine vinegar). A spinach salad with olive oil dressing and a little lean ham and pine nuts is awesome.

Meat: Stick to lean cuts. With beef, I tend to go for flank steak (London Broil) or round steak, or (we have the option in Colorado) I'll buy buffalo where I can. Pork loin is another winner, believe it or not, because it's fairly lean. If you're on a budget, buy things like chicken legs to make soup out of (they come in big packs and are quite cheap). Think about meal plans as you shop; if you want to make a batch of chicken soup, don't forget things like cooking onions, a bunch of fresh parsley, some carrots and celery, and the requisite herbs to season with.

The best advice I ever got was to buy a food dehydrator. We make our own dried apricots, apples and beef jerky with it.

If you really like chicken breasts (they're pretty versatile), then get 'em bulk frozen at someplace like Sam's Club or Costco. We throw 'em straight on the grill frozen, then brush on whatever sauce we like as they cook.

Eggs, tuna fish, orange or other fruit juices.

If you really want to go clean, carry bananas with you on your rides, although energy bars won't hurt you a bit, especially if you eat them only when your 'glycogen window' is open. A good tip to avoid the post ride binge: put in at least 200 calories per hour on a long ride; this can be a combo of electrolyte drink (Gatorade or similar) and energy bars, gels or fruit, whichever you tolerate easiest. Energy gels won't carry through an entire long ride, though- they just don't do a good job of reloading the glycogen stores.

Whatever else you do, remember - you shouldn't think of this as a "diet", more as a change in lifestyle towards eating in a more balanced and natural fashion. Just because you are trying to eliminate most of the processed foods and starches out of your diet does not mean these foods are the Enemy. Having a tortilla wrap, a piece of chocolate, or a bagel every so often will not kill you. Although I've eliminated most dairy products from my diet, I still keep plain yogurt around the house, because it's a great source of protein, easily digestible, good for the GI flora, and mixed with honey and sunflower seeds it makes a good fast breakfast on days I don't have time for eggs, etc.

Remember, you will go through a period of withdrawal, and it won't be pretty. But it will be better than the days you came home from a ride ravenous, ate a 2-lb plate of spaghetti and washed it down with a quart of Rocky Road. My personal all-time low: realizing I'd eaten an ENTIRE box of saltines with Nutella (German for "chocolate frosting") :-P
If I did eat carbs...DCepp
Mar 12, 2002 6:33 AM
where would I get the most bang for the buck? I would still like to eat some carbs so I am looking on when to eat them and what types of food. I would like to reduce my percentage of carbs to about 25% of my caloric intake. i believe right now I eat 60% carbs. Typical day:
-Coffee, packet sugar, little milk
-Bagel with butter
-Turket swiss, veggies on whole wheat
-Chicken, pork, lasagne or whatever my wife or I put together for the family (me, wife and son (soon to be 1 more!!). We usually eat what my wife makes. Or I eat a can of soup. Then I have cookies, chips, granola bars or whatever I can get my hands on. I beleive I am addicted to sugar/carbs.

(Before dinnner I work out for 40 minutes to 2 hours 5 days a week)

I rarely eat nuts, fruits, or frozen veggies. I also realize I need to graze more during the day to eliminate my late night munching. (Do you have a good late nite snack idea?)

My question again is: I will eat carbs so, when an what should I eat to reduce my % carb intake to 25%?

I appreciate your views.
Why 25%?peloton
Mar 12, 2002 3:05 PM
My question would be to ask why you would want to limit your caloric consumption of carbohydrates to only 25%? The 60% number that you are at right now is pretty much right on the money when combined with a ratio of about 15% protein and 25% fat calories. It would seem that a better plan might be to limit the amount of sugars that you are consuming.

Sugar is basically the enemy here along with other highly glycemic foods from what you describe in your diet. Sugars and highly gylcemic foods like you describe (cookies, simple starchs like refined pastas) are broken down quickly be the body and really mess with your blood sugar levels. The blood sugar spikes that they cause, and the subsequent drops from the resulting insulin spike are what is hurting you. When the blood sugar is spiked by foods like you describe, your pancreas secretes insulin to store the excess blood glucose as fat. Your blood sugar winds up lower than before the insulin spike and that is why you crave more sugar to bring the blood sugar levels back up. The body also isn't able to efficiently store the excess blood glucose to liver glycogen stores for energy during exercise when this happens. So basically, the spikes and drops in your blood sugar levels due to sugars in the diet is what is causing your hunger cravings, fat storage, and even lack of recovery from exercise. I would look to carbohydrates that are more moderately glycemic like fruits, whole grain products, and vegetables. There are still you best sources of energy, and they don't cause flucuations in your blood sugar like sugar does. There is a lot of information out there about the glycemic index, and this can guide you to making good choices in the types of carbohydrates you are consuming. Carbs aren't bad, sugar is.

Changing the diet to an intake of only 25% carbs is also obviously going to require an increased intake of fats and proteins. Proteins aren't your best source of energy. The reason people lose weight when they go on diets like Adkins or other high protein plans is because of the inefficiency of such diets. The brain needs a constant supply of glucose from the bloodsteam to survive. This glucose is used to produce ATP for energy, and this usually comes from carbohydrates or liver glycogen stores. A high protein diet runs down your liver glycogen stores so that you need to get your blood glucose supply from the food you are eating. Running down your liver glycogen stores is not a good plan for a cyclist that will need this energy for training. Low liver glycogen stores are perhaps the cyclist's number one reason for lack of recovery and low energy. Breaking down protein for glucose is down through a process called glyconeogenesis. It is an ineffiecient process that loses a lot of ATP in the process. The process also produces ketones which effect the ph of your blood, making it more acidic. This raise in ph causes strain on your renal system (kidneys), which now need to work harder to maintain homeostasis. This may not be much for a healthy person, but it's a stressor and not a good long term plan. Remember that stress is our number one cause of cancer. The body must also produce more enzymes to break down this protein. If the high protein diet is discontinued even for a short time, these enzymes are still there looking to do their job. They now cannibalize your lean body mass. This results in a loss of strength and a lower metabolism. Not to mention the strain on the heart with such a diet. Most diets this high in protein and fats contain lots of cholesterol and other heart unhealthy problems. With the litltle amount of carbs you are consuming the body will be able to metabolize cholesterol, and this has an obvious detrimental effect. So in summary, a high protein diet can bring us lower enegy stores, heart stessors, renal system stressors, and a possbility of decreased lean body mass and lower metabolism in the long term. It's not a solid
Why 25%?DCepp
Mar 13, 2002 4:35 AM
Because obviously this diet is not working for my body. Why do people lose alot of weight on low carb diets anyway? I dont know the science behind it but the eating style seems to work for a lot of people. I NEED TO DROP WEIGHT FIRST. I AM NOT CONCERNED WITH FITNESS AT THE MOMENT. 5'11" and 222 lbs is not good. I do undestand it will take a while, but I want to try this eating style first.

I excercise 5 days a week. 25%? I threw it out there to see what people thought who had the knowledge to say yea or nay. I appreciate your input. I just feel that the amount of carb foods that I eat and when I eat them (most after 6pm dinner and a snack) is my shortfall.
Why 25%?peloton
Mar 13, 2002 8:33 AM
The sugar isn't working for your body. You should know the science before you start messing wiht your body. This is why things work. As an exercise physiologist with a couple of degrees and career coach I guess I don't have enough knowledge of physiology to contribute. Good luck with you diet.

You asked. You just got a professional opinion. You do seem to know better though.
Whats with the attitude?...DCepp
Mar 13, 2002 9:19 AM
I am presenting my situation, my dilema. All you can do is talk about yourself? Don't respond to my posts then.
Some diet experienceagilis ti
Mar 13, 2002 10:19 AM
I have done the atkins thing, and i can tell you after a few days of low carbs i could barely motivate off the coach let alone work out everyday. What i have done since is change my lifestyle, veggies over pasta, green tea over pepsi (that one still kills me at times.) The results are coming quicker than expected and i am packed with energy for my rides.
Mar 13, 2002 11:14 AM
I am not considering Atkins. I am considering a lower carb way of eating (low GI foods). I have recently (1-week) been eating less after 8pm and not divulging in fried food on large portions of food especially pasta and bread. We'll see how it goes. Along with 5 days (6 hours per week) of cross-training I hope to be at 200 lbs by June 1. I am currently 222 lbs.
What works for meMcAndrus
Mar 13, 2002 11:52 AM
Your diet sounds like mine used to be. I am still adjusting but since last autumn I've been trying to do this.
- Low glycemic index foods over high glycemic foods. High GI foods induce hunger through insulin surges.
- Eat breakfast.
- Go to bed as hungry as I can stand it to make sure my body is burning fats overnight.
- Snack on low GI items like veggies and nuts.

Since Christmas I've lost 8 pounds and counting. My energy levels are very high and I no longer have the post-lunch crash I used to get.
ok, here goes (warning, very long)lonefrontranger
Mar 13, 2002 8:24 PM
Had a reply all ready this AM and our DSL modem crashed the web server, the PC I was working on, and the hub. Home network; nice to have, a pain to babysit.

ColnagoFE is correct, carbs are not the enemy - there are certain things you can do to help your tolerance as well (more on that later). However, certain high GI foods cause some individuals, myself included, to respond in a very similar manner to Type II diabetics, with blood-sugar surges/crashes, and the corresponding desperate hunger cravings where you come home from work and eat an entire loaf of bread, then pass out on the couch in a food coma. High GI foods generally include highly processed wheat and grain products and/or white sugar (sucrose). I believe one of the highest if not the highest GI food is something like puffed wheat/rice.

That being said, I typically consume about 30-35% carb; the difference is that I take it in the form of fresh fruit and things like winter squash, carrots and yams. The starchiest item on my daily program is bananas. The trick with these foods is that the fiber you ingest by eating whole, fresh fruit and vegetables slows down your absorption of the sugar and carb, which helps level out the blood sugar spike. One could obtain a similar effect from using whole grain pasta and adding a couple teaspoons of bran to it, but I don't care much for bran on the hoof, and over the course of logging a meal journal, I discovered that I'm particularly sensitive to wheat products, so ixnay on them for me.

Another tip is to drink 16 oz of fluid before sitting down to the table, then eat your protein and fiber in your meal first, leaving the higher GI items for last. This will help promote a feeling of fullness, and keep your hunger/satiety reflex working properly, so you'll end up eating less of the higher GI foods, and eating them slower. Eating the protein first also helps your metabolism and blood sugar to maintain a more even keel.

You have to eat fat to lose fat. If you don't take in enough fat, then for those of us who have highly "efficient" metabolisms (you know who you are), our bodies tend to go into 'storage' mode and we somehow never seem to lose that weight. The hard part is that it has to be the right KIND of fat. I'm not talking ice cream, bacon and pork rinds here. I'm talking about olive/flaxseed/sunflower oil, cold-water fatty fish like salmon, tuna and swordfish, avocados, nuts and lean red meat. Put olive oil and balsamic vinegar or pesto dressing on your salads, load 'em up with turkey cubes, avocado slices and sunflower seeds, and for heaven's sake throw out that highly sugared, lousy-tasting "fat-free" crap dressing that's haunting your fridge. Come on, you don't actually enjoy the taste of that stuff, do you?

I personally tend to avoid bread, pasta, white rice, potatoes, prepared / processed foods of any kind and almost all concentrated sugars including molasses and honey. This may not work well for everyone, because everyone's metabolism is different. I definitely don't recommend this program for someone who's naturally fit, lean, energetic and doing well on a standard low fat diet because it's obvious they don't have the metabolism and food sensitivity issues I do.

WATER - boy is this a tricky one. If you drink a ton of water during the day, you may feel hydrated because you're peeing a lot, but in actuality straight water in large quantities tends to flush straight through the kidneys and not get absorbed efficiently. Here's the tricky part: you must consume a MINIMUM at least 1/2 oz. fluid for every pound of body weight per day to be adequately hydrated. This may not seem like much but it means a 150-lb man needs to drink at least 75 oz per day; well over a gallon. You can take in some by the means of high-pulp calcium enriched OJ, and for those of you who drink soy milk or herbal iced teas, that works fine too. I eat a fair amount of soup, too, which is salty enough to
darned page limits (Part II)lonefrontranger
Mar 13, 2002 8:28 PM
(continued from prev. post)

I eat a fair amount of soup, too, which is salty enough to help absorption. Your body absorbs more fluid when it's coupled with sugar and/or electrolytes, rather than just straight water, in the same way that soap gets your laundry cleaner by making the water "wetter".

During training or racing, I tend to run about 50/50 water and electrolyte replacement drink (which, by the way is LOADED with sugar, more on that later). Why? Because at a high volume load / sweat rate, there is no way in hell my stomach can absorb enough water fast enough to keep me properly hydrated. On a hot, humid day in a long race, using straight water would at the least leave me feeling bloated and sloshy (ever been there?), and at the worst cause hyponaetremia, which is a dangerous condition that can lead to heart failure because you in effect overly dilute the calcium/ion balance that the heart muscle needs to generate the electric charge to "fire" (your heart is a big alkaline battery, ain't that cool?).

OK, here's where you get to cheat! Anytime you've done a hard ride or race, you need to refuel during and afterwards with easily digestible foods that refuel your glycogen stores – and these are typically foods very high on the GI, such as that sugary energy drink, bagels, Powerbars, Pop-Tarts - whatever you can tolerate well. Now, even tho this is when we feel least like eating, our glycogen window is only wide open for 20-30 minutes after a hard effort, and mostly open for 45 minutes to an hour. After that, your body switches from glycogen replenishment mode to fat storage mode. But if you don't hit that window, your system is still starving for replenishment, which is why so many bike racers can eat an entire pasta buffet 2 hours after their event. If you don't refuel right away, your appetite returns with a raging vengeance, but you missed the window, so there's a good chance you're just going to store it, not burn it. You don't have to eat a lot within the glycogen window to help curb the after-ride cravings. A half a bagel with peanut butter or a whole Powerbar 20 minutes afterward, then another small snack within an hour is all you need to help your system get back into balance.

Good Luck!
Your the best!....DCepp
Mar 14, 2002 11:02 AM
Ok, so based on the fact that I will eat carbs, what and when are the best times for me to indulge on carbs? After a workout, early morning?

FYI-128 ounces=1 gallon
Thanks for your input!
thanks, although my math is terriblelonefrontranger
Mar 14, 2002 12:47 PM
Sorry, had a blonde moment there. Numbers make my head ache. You are right, I was thinking in terms of 64 oz, which is 2 quarts, or your "eight glasses a day" that everyone quotes. The problem with this measurement is that it doesn't take into account a 200-lb man, who needs at least 100 oz. of fluid daily. At 8 8-oz. glasses a day, a 200-lb guy runs close to 40% in deficit.

It's basically a darn lot of liquid, and I still struggle with taking in enough fluid daily, even though I know the benefits.

This kind of blanket generalization is also why I hate BMI measurements, because they don't take athletes into account. I run ~18% bodyfat at 5'4" and 150 lbs, and 18% is in the normal range for a female, although I'm working to lower it to around 15%. However, the BMI height/weight index calls me borderline obese. So OK, no one will ever confuse me with Kate Moss, but I'm healthy and I motivate pretty fast on a bike.

As Colnago FE states and I'll agree, you need to take the carb that you do eat in terms of fresh fruit and veggies rather than 'white' starches and sugars, and balance your intake throughout the day. If you can manage it, the rule of 6 small meals a day works very well to really keep that blood sugar on an even keel. I find that when I'm at an office job these habits are hard to maintain unless I have the luxury of keeping a lot of my own food in a fridge or something.

If you're someone who struggles to get out the door in the AM, then stick to plain, fresh fruit - the original packaged convenience meal. But remember that you MUST EAT BREAKFAST, even if you're not hungry or don't feel like it. If not, your metabolism goes into "starvation" mode, and you'll pay for it later on by being ravenous at noon, so that when you eat that whole bag of chips at lunch you'll be off on that whole blood sugar/hunger/cravings/fatigue seesaw again. If you tolerate dairy OK, then a half-cup of plain lowfat yogurt or cottage cheese adds protein to the carb to balance it out, but I've got dairy issues, so I skip that stuff in favor of an egg or two.

If you don't have gluten intolerance or high sensitivity and/or can't bring yourself to completely nix cereal products, then choose wholegrain and very high fiber products in REAL portion sizes, not the jumbo amounts we've grown accustomed to. Americans are way out of control on portion sizes, and they're particularly bad about this when dealing with 'lowfat' foods viewed as 'healthy', like pastas and cereals. A 2-lb. plate of pasta is not okay. When dealing with cereal foods, a good rule of thumb is to keep the portion size roughly the size of your tightly closed fist - which also makes it proportionate to your individual body. Looks tiny, doesn't it?

Basically the only time I eat the really naughty (for me) stuff like bagels or hot cereal is on the morning of a race and during the recovery "window" thereafter, because these are the times when I do need that easily digestible carb. Even then, I make it something like a half bagel, with peanut or almond butter on, as the fat helps to slow the glucose uptake so that it doesn't trigger worse craving later on.

A teammate of mine agreed that she's gotten very good results by cleaning all the crap out of her diet, similar to what I've done. However, chocolate is one of the things she really can't live without. So, rather than the bags of cheap Hershey's stuff that used to lie around her house in various candy dishes, she now goes every couple weeks or so to a specialty store and buys 2-3 oz. of very high quality Belgian chocolate as a treat. This way it doesn't trash her program, *and* she doesn't miss out on her luxury item.

You can substitute anything for this quality-vs.-quantity idea: a bottle of Stella D' every so often in good company instead of keeping a case of PBR in the fridge all the time, or splurge on a piece of homemade lasagna at a
Why 25%?peloton
Mar 13, 2002 11:13 PM
I tried to show you that the sugar in your diet is your problem, not the carbs. Highly glycemic foods that you are consuming that are broken down easily are causing your problems. Cut the sugars and the simple starches like the cookies and the refined grains like pasta and you will have better results. Get your carbohydrate calories from whole food sources like fruits, vegetables, and whole grain products and you will have less fat storage, hunger cravings, and blood sugar fluctuations.

I also pointed out that people can lose weight on low carbohydrate diets due to their inefficiency to produce ATP for energy, but there are really more problems as a result. Heart problems, renal system strain, lethargy, and a possibility of decreased lean body mass at discontinuation of such a diet.

As I re-read it I see some of my post got cut off. I would re-post the rest, but I don't think you are interested. I would encourage you to look at the glycemic index of your foods, sugar intake, and to understand why a high protein diet works the way it does and what negatives come with it. They really aren't all they are cracked up to be when you look at the way they get metabolized in your system. It is a good thing to understand the physio behind it even if it isn't the most interesting thing in the world.

FWIW- I give up with trying to help as far as diet or biomechanics are concerned.

Carbs are not the enemyColnagoFE
Mar 13, 2002 3:44 PM
You sound like you already eat a pretty good diet, but try and skip the dessert/snack stuff like cookies, chips and granola bars. Try substituting a handful or so of nuts like almonds or the like for a snack. they are high in fat, but it's good fat and they will fill you up more than chips and the like. You might try working out in the morning instead of evening if possible. Start on an empty stomach for an hour or so and you'll be revving up your metabolism way more than coffee does and burning a higher percentage of fat to boot. Also lifting weights will help build muscle which will help you trim down--3x a week should be plenty.
How bad is milk?SilentBob
Mar 12, 2002 8:21 AM
I read your post below, from late February. I had heard bad things about cow's milk but I had thought that it was just veggie propaganda. As per the nutritional contents in milk (as per the label), 0% fat, 9 grams of protein (and I get it from an organic store to limit ingesting any more chemicals than needed). I thought the stuff was god's gift when it came to a healthy drink. So... now what? Anything else out there that you can drink with no fat yet high in protein? PLEASE LET ME KNOW! If not, looks like it's back to water.

lots of people are allergic to dairy--swome don't know itColnagoFE
Mar 13, 2002 3:49 PM
some outright lactose intolerant and some like me are just sensitive to dairy. i think there are probably many better things to drink than cows milk from a health standpoint. if you're worried about calcium then drink calcium fortified juice. the calcium is probably better absorbed by the body in an acidic environment anyway. My 2c anyway.
Depends, but it's not the holy grail the Dairy Council insistslonefrontranger
Mar 13, 2002 9:01 PM
The thing that really gets my knickers in a twist about milk is that it's promoted all over the American media as some kind of panacea or super-food. C'mon, we're the only mammals that drink milk after infancy.

My specific issue is that I got forced to drink milk by well-meaning adults when I was a very lactose-intolerant kid, and I'm bitter about all the needless suffering I went through as a result. I was a classic case of a chronically sick kid - you name it, I caught it, and I was allergic to everything. I had major female issues as an adolescent as well. My gyn. finally recommended that I cut out the dairy products (didn't drink milk anymore, but was a cheese addict), and lo and behold, the fibroids and all the related hell that went with 'em vanished within about 4 months. My allergies sinusitis, and wicked "sick headaches" also cleared up over the course of about 2 years. Maybe it was coincidental, who knows.

If you tolerate milk well and use an organic / chemical-free product, then it's probably not going to hurt you. It is a decent source of protein, and helps hydrate you.

I just get p.o'd that the American public is so caught up in the Dairy Council hype and are so gung-ho on pouring hormone, antibiotic and steroid-laced milk down their kid's throats that they don't even see many of the common side effects: lactose intolerance (GI distress), IBS, and the well-documented increased risk of hyperactive immune system woes (allergies, asthma, sinusitis, autoimmune issues).

The worst part is that the government health advocates continue to promote milk as a source of calcium - particularly to postmenopausal women, when it's been proven that your body can't absorb the calcium very well from milk - it just flushes through the kidneys, and in some poor souls it tends to precipitate as kidney stones. And, to boot, it tends to increase the risk of things like joint pain - something fiftysomething women like my mother (rheumatoid arthritis) really DON'T need. I _finally_ convinced her to lay off the dairy products, and she's been remarkably pain-free for well over six months.
on the same allergiesColnagoFE
Mar 14, 2002 9:08 AM
One of my sons reacts VERY BADLY when he eats large amounts of dairy for an extended period. Behavior problems, sickness, you name it. Sort of build up over time. He can eat dairy for a day or two fine, but do it for a week stright and watch out. When we are good about his diet (which is tough as he craves dairy) he is remarkably better. I'd guess there are a number of kids diagnosed with ADHD that just need to cut certain foods fron their diets, but mostwestern medicine is still in the dark ages as far as the role diet has on a person's mental and physical health. I feel sorrry for the poor kids who are on Ritalin (basically speed) when they might be able to be helped by cutting out foods that don't agree with them. I also know a woman that was diagnosed with MS only to find out that it was all food allergies. As soon as she cut out certain foods she made a miraculous recovery and is fine to this day by just avoiding those foods.
NPR had article this morning...EricTheRed
Mar 15, 2002 6:27 AM
About how Coca Cola marketing in Japan has to create a vast array of products that continually change in order to be competetive. These included things like water (duh, just drink water!?), juices, sports drinks, etc. They are coming out with a MILK drink to market to Japenese youth. This will then go to Mexico and eventually the US.

Anyway, I read in some anti-milk links (Ithink spurred by the previous discussion) that Japan has very high rates of illnesses linked to large milk consumption; diabetes in kids, osteoporosis, kidney stones, etc. Go figure - nice connection.
How bad is milk?SilentBob
Mar 18, 2002 5:34 AM
So basically, it's more of a moderation thing. Basically, if you're okay with it, then you can drink it, just not too much? I have never (knock on wood) had a problem with milk. But with everything I'm reading here, it really makes me not want to chance ingesting the stuff anymore. Kidney stones top the list of things that I don't want to experience in my life. I easily go through about 1 1/2 to 2 gallons a week, depending on how often I drag my ass to the grocery store. By the sound of everything, I guess I'll keep the milk for cereal, and switch back to water with my meals. Yay. Thanx for the posts.
you could always switch to soy milkColnagoFE
Mar 19, 2002 10:41 AM
I don't usually eat ceral and have never liked milk on it when I did (eat it dry). I think the vanilla soymilk would be pretty good for cereal use though. I use it for protein shakes and pretty much anywhere that I'd use milk.
Soy MilkSilentBob
Mar 20, 2002 4:58 AM
I guess next time I hit the Fresh Fields near me, I'll be on the look out for some soy milk. i checked out some yogurt made with soy milk and it didn't have nearly as much protein as the cow milk yogurt did. How far behind in the protein department does soy milk lag? How's the flavor compared to cow milk?
I don't mind it, but then againColnagoFE
Mar 20, 2002 8:16 AM
I don't really like cows milk by itself. I'm not as big of a fan of soy yogurt, but maybe you will be. My son likes it. I still like cheese though. I try to limit my dairy as it does strange things to my digestion. Not lactose intolerant, but I'm better off without it. Check out for nutrition details. I like the vanilla and chocolate silk soymilk.
Cool. Thanks...SilentBob
Mar 21, 2002 7:59 AM
...for the info, I appreciate it. I'm addicted to cheese too. I love a Vermont Sharp White Cheddar. Damn that's good stuff. I guess I'll just have to experiment with the Soy. Maybe I'll limit the milk and still allow myself the cow's milk cheese and yogurt. Crazy, I can't believe I'm talking about my eating habits in this much detail. I use to just eat anything I wanted but since I've been out of school, my weight has stayed the same, but my body fat has risen. That's not a good sign. Guess the metabolism is slowing down. Anyway, thanks again.
Nutella low though!Wannabe
Mar 13, 2002 11:30 AM
Just to show you how confused I am getting, Nutella has a GI of 32... So it must have been the crackers that were so bad! Well, at least I am learning that I do not have to worry about my pasta, no problems on the GI there. Whew!

Andy - Confused!
don't be confusedlonefrontranger
Mar 14, 2002 3:21 PM
saltines have a very high GI. Combined with the fat in the Nutella, and the sheer quantity of both, I'm estimating that it was close to a 5,000 calorie binge. The fat in the Nutella is what brings the GI down, since fat slows the absorption rate of carb, although Nutella is simply loaded with sugar.

One tablespoon of Nutella (or peanut butter) won't hurt you. Two tablespoons probably won't hurt you. An entire pint jar, OTOH, is a bit on the extreme side. The trick is being able to stop after one or two, and with the saltines as aggravator (salty-crunchy snacks tend to trigger the hunger reflex so you just can't stop eating them), it went downhill from there.

I had a sugar migrane from that one for about 2 days.
don't be confused... ...butWannabe
Mar 19, 2002 1:04 PM
Okay, so what about pasta? I love pasta, live for it. One thing I enjoy about riding as hard as I do is I don't feel so guilty about eating pasta with a cream sauce! I firmly believe that I should have been born in Italy. So everyone here says pasta=bad. However, on the glycemic index "white spaghetti" has a GI of 41, the same as "wheat kernels" as opposed to "whole wheat" at 37 and "bulgar" at 48.

What gives?

Disclaimer: I should note that I am very fortunate. Contrary to what others have thought with my posts I am not having any problems with my diet, weight, training (term used loosely) or anything else. I am not looking for the "magic trick" as another poster who I always respected thought. I just want to learn more, and be healthy. I plan on making no significant changes to my diet that has me at 143lbs at 5'7". But if I can substitute one pasta over another knowing I am doing no harm and maybe a little good, well what's wrong with that?

Andy - Wannabe