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For the love of God, help me!(63 posts)

For the love of God, help me!PabloDiablo
Feb 25, 2002 7:52 PM
I can't stop gaining weight. I was cruising along with a very respectable fat % all through high school. I never had it measured, but it was almost nothing. Not low enough that a 6-pack could show through my midsection, but very close. Then I went off to college. I went the whole first semester without gaining any fat. I started to lift in addition to riding and I gained some muscle but no fat. Then, around the start of second semester, something horrible happened: I am hungry all the goddamn time. No matter what I do I am hungry. It's like my body's gas gauge is broken. I've tried all sorts of stuff. For awhile, I tried eating only at normal mealtimes. Still hungry all the goddamn time. Then I tried skipping all the mealtimes and munching on stuff all day. Still hungry all the goddamn time. For awhile, I ate exactly when my body told me to. I figured that, since I was training a lot more, I needed more food. No good. Since christmas, regardless of my personal habbits, there has been a remarkably consistent accumulation of sweaty, worthless, disgusting flab around the midsection. What in god's name more can I do? I would ride more, but I think that right now I ride as much as I can without doing myself more harm than good. In my lifestyle phases when I deprived myself of as much food as I could bear to, I felt inexcusably weak on the bike. What can I do? Should I skip meals whenever I can? Should I eat only at meals? What does hunger mean? Should I try that no carb crap? What about breakfast? Should I be eating breakfast? Why am I the hungriest at night? When my suite mates order pizza, I often have to be physically restrained to prevent myself from eating the pizza. I am not kidding. If some deity offered me the choice between a beautiful woman and the pizza, it seems clear to me that I would choose the pizza. Where can I find the strength not to eat the pizza? Why is it that now that I train more, I am getting fatter? If it comes down to a choice between being fat and fast and thin and slow, I'll take thin and slow. I read about how the pros will go on long rides on an empty stomach to loose weight, but I can't ride on empty. It feels like my legs have been replaced with frozen tuna. I can't turn the pedals around. I am at the point now that I will not stand for getting any fatter. If it means that I have to take up smoking, then so be it. I must not be using my body-fat calipers right, because now they read about 7% but I've got enough crud around my midsection that when I bend over at the waist, there is a flap of flab that folds over my belt. I could hide a quarter in there. That can't be 7%. I know I just asked a lot of jumbled questions, but answers to any of them would be much appreciated.

LFR! Intervention needed now!!! nmshirt
Feb 25, 2002 7:58 PM
Okay, okay - it took me a while to do the research on this onelonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 10:23 AM
See my post below. I've had lots of very expert help with my particular program, and I'm dead serious when I say the USDA is slowly killing us.
re: For the love of God, help me!jim hubbard
Feb 25, 2002 11:52 PM
go see a doctor get yourself checked for diabetis(sp,)
go see a nutritionist,
if this fails go see a shrink
eat less, ride more...Travis
Feb 26, 2002 5:50 AM
expend more calories than you take in. you can boil all the diet schemes and advice down to this one simple truth. If you take in more calories than you burn, you will gain weight. If you burn more than you take in, you will lose weight. Passing on food that tastes great (pizza is one of my weaknesses also) takes discipline. There are other reasons to avoid foods that are high in saturated fat, refined sugar, etc but total calories taken in and expended are the bottom line. Some people are blessed by genetics with a high metabolism that allows them to eat anything and not gain weight. For the rest of us, it sucks.
Absolutely true, but...allervite
Feb 26, 2002 9:20 AM
One donut is a lot harder to ride off than one apple.

Eat a good breakfast. If you are gonna pig out this is the time to do it. Early in the morning your body absorbs less calories and you have all day to burn them off.

Do not eat after 6 p.m.. This is a hard one to get used to, but after a couple weeks of torture, your body will become used to not eating after 6 p.m. and you won't be as hungry then. If you are gonna pig out this is NOT the time to do it. As the evening wanes your body absorbs more of the calories you eat.

Eat a lot of fiber. It makes you feel full and actually takes a lot of calories to digest.

Don't be afraid of fat. It feeds the immune system and makes you feel full. If the choice is between refined sugar and a big hunk of lard. Go for the lard.

Protein has gotten a bad rap of late. Studies have shown that we do not need as much as for training purposes as we have been led to believe. However, we still need it. Also, like fat, it makes you feel full.

Carbs. The problem here is that they make us hungry and sleepy. A bad combination. Eat a lot then fall asleep and absorb it all. Shun refined sugar! Stick to the complex versions. An exception to this rule is while you are exercising and immediately after.

Eat your fat and protein in the morning.
Don't eat after 6 p.m.
For snacks eat, fiber and some fat
Leave the table a little hungry, but not ravenous.
Feb 26, 2002 6:03 AM
Hey Kurt,

Do not skip breakfast. The above cooment was very good though ( lol ) Anywaya, you should eat things that are good for your body. Pizza, too much pasta, alot of carbs or too much protein are not good. Make sure the carbs you are eating/drinking are not sugar carbs. For instance a drink may say 42 carbs per serving but has 38 from sugar. Also, your body goes through dramatic changes every 7 years. Gaining a little weight in your early mid 20s is no big deal. You will never look like high school again unless you are peaking but you can come close. Second, don't satidfy the need to eat ALL the time. Thats how you gain weight. Eat breakfast, eat 2 bowls of wheaties bike/sport specific cereal. Put some honey on it if its not sweet enough. Eat a banana after that if you are really hungary. Then do not eat until lunch or if you are on a ride eat 1 cliff bar ( not GU ) Then have a sandwich. But stay away from chips and greasy stuff. Also cut cheese out from your diet. If you want to be a profecient cyclist, you make sacrifices. Have a good dinner, like pasta and chicken but dont eat so much you are uncomfortable. Eating too much is just as bad as not eating enough. You may get hungry in the meantime so occupy yourself and dont spend so much time on it in your head. Be consistant for 2-3 weeks and no crap food. You will feel better. Go to a GNC and get some vitamins that give you energy, ask for help there so you dont get the wrong stuff. I eat anything I want until mid to late January, then I cut out all the things that i know are not good for me. But i do it slowly. I feel better, i bike better, and I weigh 130 lbs. Down from 142. I expect to loose another 4lbs when I peak without being hungry all the time. I wish you luck and hope you have A KICK ASS SEASON!
Look........Jon Billheimer
Feb 26, 2002 6:56 AM
If you're truly at 7% bodyfat it would stand to reason that you might feel stressed and hungry. However, at 7% one isn't going to have flab hanging over one's belt. So it seems to me there's a perceptual or accuracy issue going on here. Combining that with your constant and unusual hunger rings some alarm bells for me. I think you should see a physician to discuss what's going on. Either you're simply not eating enough, you're developing some sort of insulin-related problem, or you're flirting psychologically with a body image eating disorder. Get some professional assistance.
re-reading the postshirt
Feb 26, 2002 9:35 AM
Dude says when he BENDS OVER AT THE WAIST he can fit a quarter in there. My guess is every guy on my team can do that.

Kurt. Your problems are _100%_ in your head. Your body is fine. You could most definitely use some help on the head part. You'll be much happier if you do. And this message board probably isn't the place to find it as people like me and Allervite are here.
eating disorderPabloDiablo
Feb 26, 2002 11:21 AM
I guess that post might indeed have seemed like the rantings of a mentally unstable man. Seriously, though, I'm doin' ok upstairs. I was just wiggin' out because for awhile it seemed like my body just decided it was going to pack in some flab and not give me a choice in the matter. I think that when I have a lot of work to do, particulary the sort of work that I hate, I can't deal with the added shittiness of being hungry on top of the already super-shitty work. One time I had a humanities paper and I ate 2/3 of a pizza all by myself. So, in conclusion, the humanities are conspiring to make me a chub-sack. I'll have to find some other way to take my mind off work, I guess (narcotics?).

Feb 26, 2002 4:55 PM
I agree with Jon 100%

If you are hungry all the time something could be going on either physically or psychologically here. See your doctor and find out if there might be any reason for your symptoms.

Lots of other good info in this thread too!
REAL answers (and for the love of God, don't start smoking!)lonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 11:09 AM
Your dilemma, as you described it, sounds to me like you are on the carbohydrate/sugar addiction yo-yo. Your symptoms are that of the "freshman fifteen" phenomenon, where formerly active teenagers become sedentary college students, and are forced to subsist on a diet comprised of cheap food: rice, pasta, ramen noodles, beer, pizza, chips and cereal. It's all carbs, and it's all bad for you. And no, I'm not an advocate for ‘low-carb' fad diets like Adkins, The Zone, Sugar Busters or any of that other crap that urges you to buy high-cost ‘meal supplement' bars that are (hello!) loaded with carbs (soy) and sugar (glycerin).

For the past ten years, I've worked in the pharmaceutical, medical and biotech industries. I've seen the REAL clinical studies – like that of obese teens fed lowfat diets high in grain and dairy products. They got fatter, not thinner, and developed symptoms like high blood pressure, depression, and chronic fatigue. From the recommendations and advice of the many dieticians, metabolic specialists and Ph.D.s I've known, I built my own program based on what is now known as a ‘paleolithic' diet. We are not cows. We are neither horses, nor deer, nor waterfowl. We are primates, and in specific, primates that have slowly evolved over three million years to live on leafy green vegetables, nuts, fruit, lean meat and fish. Only within the last five to ten thousand years have we become farmers, and evolution hasn't had time to catch up to that dietary change.

Sugar, in ANY form is proven to affect the brain receptors in the same patterns as an opiate, and the base chemical structure for sugar is. morphine! Eat enough, and you're addicted. Cereals, starches and grains have a 'high glycemic index', which is dieticianese for the fact that they rapidly convert to sugars in the digestive tract and bloodstream, with nearly identical results. This blood sugar ‘rush', and subsequent ‘crash' triggers your cravings and hunger, so now you're in the addiction spiral as bad as any heroin junkie, always looking for your next fix.

The amount of cereal and dairy products we eat are the biggest source of diabetes, obesity, high blood pressure and autoimmune dysfunction in the U.S. today. It's perpetuated by the insistence of the USDA on a ‘meal pyramid' that's based on phony marketing hype and farm subsidies, not real dietary source fact. Farming is good for the economy, and failed farmers are a burden on it, so the USDA markets their products: cereal grains, dairy and beef. Incidentally, the quickest way to fatten an animal for market is to take them off of the grass and feed them on a combination of corn, oats, molasses and milk powder. Sounds like your breakfast cereal, doesn't it?

Some further ‘fun facts' I've dredged out of the clinical studies behind all this health-food hype:
* The Japanese have been used for decades as examples of the benefits of a lowfat diet, but their breast cancer and high blood pressure rates are nearly twice that of Westerners, and their infertility rate nearly four times that of the U.S. Why? The amount of soy product they eat causes their endocrine system to produce estrogen-like substances with nearly the same effect as taking SCE's (synthetic conjugated estrogens AKA birth control pills).
* The intercontinental (Mongol) Chinese have the highest rates of obesity in modern culture, although they eat a diet that is very similar in structure to the Japanese. What's missing is fish, and the benefits of omega-3 fatty acids. However, it's been demonstrated that the amount of cereal product (rice) they eat leads to the obesity rate, and the associated mortality and morbidity statistics related to same.
* Cow's milk is useless in the human diet. It doesn't "do a body good" in any clinically proven manner. You can't process the calcium in cow's milk; it is merely flushed through the kidneys as waste, and in certain individuals it accumulates as kidney stones. What you derive from milk is fat, water and the anabolic steroids, antibiotics and growth hormone given to the cows to up production. The dairy protein casein (found in all dairy products) has been proven to trigger and complicate symptoms of allergies, migraines, PMS in women, and all those desirable autoimmune problems like lupus, Crohn's disease, rheumatoid arthritis, and multiple sclerosis. It's a foreign protein we're not evolved to use, so the body often treats it like any other virus or invader - hence your immune system goes haywire.
* The Egyptians (the first grain based economy) had the highest rates of heart disease, stroke, diabetes and obesity of any culture on the planet at that time. Granted they don't show obese sick people in their artwork, but neither does our Hollywood media! Archaeologists have done bone and mummy studies, and they've proven these people had all the classic symptoms of the modern "SAD" (standard American diet).

My advice is to cut way back on starches and sugar – stick to vegetables, fruit, nuts, eggs, lean meat and fish. I've been on this program (not a diet, I don't limit calories, fat or intake) for ten months, and the results have been gradual but steady, and the end result is dramatic. My blood pressure, which had been borderline high since I turned 30 has dropped to my teenage baseline of 110/72. My weight has come down gradually, and I'm now over 20 pounds less than I've ever been as an adult. My energy soared after the initial 3-day hell of withdrawal, which is the hardest part. I no longer suffer from allergies or migraines. I'm training stronger and racing better than ever. My hematocrit has gone from borderline anemic (~37%) to borderline "illegal" as defined by the UCI (48% last month when I gave blood). A side benefit is (how to say this diplomatically) well, let's just say my boyfriend has become a real convert to the ‘paleo' way of eating... and not just because I'm thinner and more energetic ;-)
Yes, yesMcAndrus
Feb 26, 2002 11:26 AM
Not that you need my opinion on this but my recent experience proves your point. As a reformed sugarholic I can testify to the points you've made.

I can never lose weight during the season and so I work on it off-season. This winter I've lost 8 pounds and still going down using essentially the principles you discussed. Next week - knock wood - I'll be at my weight coming out of boot camp.

And man, is it easier to climb hills!

I'm not sure how I stumbled onto these eating habits: mainly I've just been reading whatever sports nutrition literature I could get my hands on. But I'm here to testify, sister, that your way works.

Now - if I could just learn to like fish - yuck.
seriously man, fish is nastyPabloDiablo
Feb 26, 2002 11:59 AM
Fish tastes like licking the underside of a dock. Not one of those clean, quaint movie docks, either. A real crusty, nasty, slimy dock.

surviving fishTig
Feb 26, 2002 12:14 PM
I was never much for eating fish. Keep that nasty tuna away! After catching a few of my own a few years ago, I picked up some good recipes. I now actually like some fish. The key is to eat fresh fish, and the tastier species. Not everyone will have access to a good supply though. I can go down to the docks and buy a nice red fish, flounder, or catch a tastie speckled trout.

If you are at a restaurant, order a blackened fish recipe. The spicy peppers can make most fish taste great.

Here's one of my personal recipes:
I've been placing the rinsed flounder fillets in a big zip-lock and adding limon juice & a bunch of Paul Prudome's Blackened Redfish Magic, and covering them with the shake-n-bake method. The fillets are then ready to freeze or cook after marinating a few hours in the fridge.

If you'd like you can also rolled the defrosted/fresh fillets in Itialian bread crumbs and placed them on a rack, broiling in the oven. Talk about GOOD! Also very simple and quick.
quality counts for more than just priceMike-Wisc
Feb 26, 2002 12:24 PM
If the fish you're getting is as you describe, you either live in a very fish-poor region, or you are getting your fish from the wrong places.

There is a lot of variety in the quality of fish, from where it is from or caught, to how it it transported and handled, to how it is prepared. It also depends a lot on the type of fish you get.

There used to be a fish-n-chips place in Auburn California when I lived out west. When they first opened they had great fish. Then within 6 months the owner started cutting costs figuring that the customers would never notice, but they did. I went there one last time about a year after they first opened and the fish was nasty, pretty much as you described. I think he literally bought his fish from the bottom of the barrel on the return leg of the delivery truck, nasty stuff, I chucked it out before even finishing the first piece.

Quality fresh well prepared fish of a good variety from clean waters and handled by competant people after the catch will be great. It will not be slimey nor nasty nor taste like any dock underside (clean or otherwise).

Man I'm getting hungry.
Not in the Northwesthrv
Feb 26, 2002 12:34 PM
Here in the Northwest, I flyfish for steelhead and salmon.
Tasty doesn't begin to describe it. I've pulled stuff out of the freezer that I caught 7 months earlier and every bite is still heaven. Guess I'm lucky.
fish solutionslonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 12:57 PM
If you want the benefits of eating fish (omega-3 fatty acids) but can't stand the taste, there are 2 solutions. One is very costly and involves taking a fish or algal oil supplement rich in DHA/EPA, which are the major nutrients derived from cold-water fatty fish (the beneficial ones).

Otherwise, you can look for eggs taken from hens fed a high-DHA/EPA diet. Gold Circle Farms eggs are the ones I use, because the hens are fed algae, not fish meal, hence they don't acquire any fishy taste. They run about 65-70% more than regular eggs, but at $2.50 a dozen, they're cheaper than fish, keep better and don't raise a stink in the kitchen (literally).
japan/ phytosetrogens/ breast cancerharlett
Mar 13, 2002 11:25 PM
lonefrontranger..the breast cancer rates you mentioned should be reversed.the rates are four times higher in the u.s. than in japan and throughout asia-- also you may have unintentional left the impression that soy phytosetrogens may be a cause of breast cancer-

as a user of soy in my diet i have been careful to look at the studies on its use and benefits and possible problems-- i have had long discussions with various researchers about it--
on soy and breast cancer the studies are still limited and confusing with experts disagreeing-- studies at the university of illinois at urbana-champaign and the british columbia cancer agency have shown that when mice, implanted with mcf-7 human breast cancer cells, were given low doses of the soy isolfavone genistein it stimulated the growth of the cells-- low doses of both genistein and soys other phytoestrogen daidzein also inhibited the antitumor effect of tamoxifen-- in the british columbia study high concentrations of both genistein and daidzein inhibited tumor growth and enhanced the effect of tamoxifen in vitro--
the on going work at urbana-champaign is what is most often referred to as the source of soy phytoestrogen and breast cancer questions--
research being done at harvard seems to indicate that soy consumed early in life exerts a protective effect on breast tissue and when premenopausal women drink isoflavone-containing soymilk, it significantly lowers their circulating levels of both estrogen and progesterone, potentially protecting them from breast cancer-- the harvard studies are following those done at the national cancer center in tokyo with women who do not have a strong breast cancer family history-- these are showing that weaker plant estrogens may actually be protective by fitting into the receptor site on the breast tissue and preventing the more powerful human estrogen from attaching and promoting the cancer process--
what the research is telling me at the moment is that women with existing estrogen receptor positive breast tumors, women taking tamoxifen and women with a strong family history of breast cancer should use caution in consuming large amounts of soy and avoid the use of concentrated soy products--
for women who are breast cancer free and do not have a strong family history of breast cancer then plant estrogens may actually be protective and in any case not a risk to their health on this issue-- soy can have a valuable place in a regular and especially a vegetarian diet-- with moderation and common sense of course--

btw.great series of posts on nutrition by you--
"paleo" way of eatingTig
Feb 26, 2002 12:00 PM
Oh, this is difficult to keep diplomatic... Let's just say that when a man takes supplemental zinc, his woman will enjoy dining on the other other white meat after about 6 weeks. My wife could tell you much more. Let's just say she found a really good restaurant! ;o)
For the love of God!allervite
Feb 26, 2002 12:01 PM
She's not married! Our perfect woman is not married. That'll give a lot of hope to your many single admirers on this board. Better tell that boyfirend to get on the ball or you may get sniped!

All kidding aside. Good post, very well researched. Just to let you know. I read a study in Discover magazine that showed Casein was a trigger for many types of cancer also. I also find it interesting that so many people are actually slightly allergic to wheat.

I cannot give up milk though. I try not to abuse it but Fettucine Alfredo done right (nutritionaly wrong) is close to sex. My other dairy fault is eggs. I crave them after a grueling race, especialy if the race lasts more than a day.
eggs aren't bad for you - bad "expert advice" is bad for you.lonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 12:45 PM
As far as milk goes - moderation is the key. A little bit of chocolate once or twice a month hasn't killed my program, although it's specifically on the poscribed list due to all kinds of baddies in it.

I admit to being an anti-dairy fundamentalist. I was a lactose-intolerant kid who was forced to drink milk and suffer the pain, indignity and consequences for years until my mother finally convinced the schools, my stepmother, my aunts and uncles, my grandparents, the PTA, and society in general that it was a really bad idea to give me cow's milk.

It has never been clinically proven that eating as many as a couple eggs daily will raise the level of blood TGE / LDL (bad) cholesterol. Here again, this is marketing hype, based on the fact that egg yolks ARE made up of cholesterol and triglycerides. However, the old saw 'you are what you eat' isn't true in this particular instance. Most egg yolk is VLDL, a form of cholesterol which cannot be absorbed because the molecule is simply too big and complex to fit through cell membrane walls. Eggs have also long been a reliable protein source for many primates, thus we are well adapted to utilize the nutrient sources within these little power packs - which is probably why you crave them after a draining effort. Load the suckers up with pork green chile and go to town, I say.

Don't get hung up in the ketosis / ketogenesis debate either. Very low calorie diets and/or anorexia can cause what is known as KETOSIS, aka the metabolization of lean body tissue (where you start 'eating' your own muscle). The waste product, ketones, are flushed through the liver and excreted, and do damage to the liver along the way.

KETOGENESIS, on the other hand, is a natural process. We are designed by nature to store any and all excess carbs as body fat, as the efficient primate body sees these as 'luxury sources' of energy which were not readily available in the hunter-gatherer diet. A balanced, low carbohydrate intake forces the body to utilize protein, not fat as the energy source, which is how it was originally designed to function. This raises the metabolic rate (and your perceived amount of energy), and any available fat source (your love handles) is made metabolically available - i.e. they get used up and disappear.
eggs aren't bad for you - bad "expert advice" is bad for you.Wayne
Feb 27, 2002 9:45 AM
Can you point me to any credible research on Ketogenesis? This is the basis of the Atkin's diet, correct? My understanding of this is that it's a theory (in the true sense of the word i.e. a story that could make sense but has no evidence to support it) and has not been verified by any independent research. Everytime I've seen interviews with Dr. Atkins he gives his theory, says that persons x,y, and z have lost weight and their cholesterol, blood pressure has declined, etc. and therefore ketogenesis is a real phenomena. Then when people point out the faulty logic in this reasoning he hems and hawls and says we have studies underway, blah, blah, blah. So, is there science to support this? (I truely don't know)
Feb 27, 2002 10:43 AM
I think I understand ketogenesis and I see why people get on Atkin's case. He's never published anything on this as far as I can tell, nor did i find any other studies about it. The essential question is if i burn 3000 calories a day (including exercise since we're all athletes and it would put more demands on our glycogen stores than sendentary folk) and I consume 3000 calories a day either in the traditional athletes diet of high carbs/mod prot./low fat (say 65/20/15 calorie ratio) or the Atkin's diet of 20/40/40 (is that the right ratio approximately ?) will I lose weight and/or will my perfomance suffer on one vs. the other diet. My guess would be, no I won't lose any weight on either, and I'm much more at risk of gradually depleting my muscle/liver glycogen stores on the Atkin's diet and therfore hurting my performance at races etc. Basically your relying on ingested protien to restore your glycogen stores through ketogenesis, correct? Rather than just eating the carbohydrates directly and risking any excess being turned into fat (which i think consumes about 25% of the calories in the conversion process). Wouldn't small more frequent meals take care of this also, since you wouldn't be cosuming excess carbs at any one sitting? But on the Atkins diet your consuming alot more fat that doesn't need to be converted into anything to be stored as fat.
The most appealing reasons I could find for the success some people have on the Atkins diet is that a higher fat/protien diet suppresses appetite mainly through a more steady blood glucose level than a high carb diet (i found a couple of studies demonstrating this), so in the long run you eat less total calories and consequently lose weight. What's the need to bring in all the ketogenesis stuff? Help me out here, please?
Basically, comes down to the old more calories expended than consumed notion.
ketosis and ketogenesisdoug in co
Feb 27, 2002 12:31 PM
ketosis = an abnormal increase of ketone bodies in the body
ketogenesis = the production of ketone bodies (as in diabetes and low carbohydrate diets)

Hence, the consequence of high levels of ketogenesis is ketosis. And the conclusion:

Atkins diet = dangerous nonsense
ketosis and ketogenesisWayne
Feb 27, 2002 12:50 PM
Yeah, that's what I found. I now better understand why people criticize Atkin's, it not whether or not Ketogenesis occurs (which is what I originally thought). It's the lack of control for caloric intake when comparing his diet to others, and the potential for the high fat/high protein diet to lead to negative health conditions (which in other contexts has been shown to be a "bad" diet). He then claims patient x and y have improved cholesterol profiles, lower Blood pressure, etc. but everyone knows anecdotal evidence isn't evidence at all and that these may be the exception rather than the rule. Whatever, he's made millions off of it and no-one seems to really know whether it is bunk or not. I've read Ketones are essentially poisons and especially bad for children since it's thought that is the proximate cause of the neurological damage leading to mental retardation often scene in children that experience chronic starvation. But I found a very pro-Atkins web site that claimed the brain prefers Ketones (which may be true but not necessarily healthy). So what's your take on why the Atkins diet is dangerous?
Feb 27, 2002 3:11 PM
I really don't like what I have researched and heard about the Adkins diet or other high protein diets for athletes. I mean, the whole premise behind the diet is the inefficiency of the body to produce ATP from protein as opposed to carbohydrates. Your liver glycogen stores are run down in the first couple days on the diet as they are used to maintain adequate blood glucose levels in the absense of carbohydrates in the diet. Your liver is now 'empty' of stored energy for exercise or life in general. Now, you aren't supposed to consume any carbs in the strict sense of the Adkins diet to replace these stores. Your body must get it's ATP elsewhere, so it breaks down proteins in the process of glyconeogenesis. This process of glyconeogenesis creates ketones which affect the ph levels of the blood, which creates strain on the renal system. It may not be much for a healthy person, but it's a stressor none the less. Ever smelled someone in the gym that has that musky, bad BO from their high ketone levels? Bad breath too...The body must also produce more enzymes to break down the protein that one is consuming. Cut the high protein diet out, and go back to a normal diet and these protein metabolizing enzymes are still there, and they cannabalize lean body mass at this point. I have seen athletes who have lost lean body mass, and measurable strength after discontinuing Adkins for this reason. It's also harder to maintain adequate blood glucose levels in this sort of diet, and many athletes complain of lethargy from this. How does that help training? I know Adkins also says that the diet can lower cholesterol and help the heart. This can be true, but only in the complete absence of carbohydrates. If you are cheating, and eating some carbs your cholesterol will go up, and your heart will not get the benefit here. Most people cheat from my observation. Some versions of Adkins even give an hour long window to do so, which kind of defeats the purpose.

I don't get where the Adkins diet has any applicabilty to athletes, or most people for that matter. Maybe if you are a heart patient it makes sense in some situations. No liver glycogen stores for training, increased lethargy, renal system strain, and lean body mass loss at discontinuation. Where do I sign up? I get frustrated when I see people buy into that crap diet BS.

The Milk debate is an interesting one. Definitely two camps there.
Here, here! It's about time some common sense ruled.Jon Billheimer
Feb 28, 2002 8:16 AM
Atkins diet = dangerous nonsenselonefrontranger
Feb 28, 2002 8:45 AM
I wholeheartedly agree, and if you read my initial post, you'll see that I pointed out that ADKINS IS CRAP. For heaven's sake, they tell you not to eat carrots or orange juice, and those are both two mainstays of my diet. You get sugar and carbs from both, incidentally. I won't claim you don't. However, it is known that the fiber you ingest in concert with the sugar / carb keeps the metabolism from going into yo-yo mode. The same thing would occur if I were to dump raw bran fiber over my pasta, but it doesn't taste as good.

I think my main point, which I then think I ran overboard with because I was digging through a bunch of clinical studies to support my points, is that eating a HEALTHY SENSIBLE program will benefit you in the long run. Probably the reason most people do well on the type of program I detailed is that they're removed from dependence on boxed, overly processed convenience foods, which are also crap.

Paleo fiends will also tell you not to eat any types of beans or lentils, and those (excluding soy, for the reasons I stated) are two mainstays of the soups I make.
well, what about the eye-talians? I've always heard that, withbill
Feb 26, 2002 12:33 PM
a diet high in complex and not-so-complex carbohydrates (bread and pasta), not too much meat, some cheese, lots of fruit and vegetables, they actually do pretty well in the obesity, heart disease, and stroke departments. I'm not talking about the no-necked hit men on "The Sopranos," I'm talking about the beeauutiful people you see running around Rome, Florence and Milan, drinking red wine and all that.
My family is Italian two generations back, so that some of the cultural stuff, like foods, persists. I believe in moderation in all things food, and you'll do just fine. Have a nice plate of pasta, some good bread, a little veal, and a canoli. Just one, though.
My brother-in-law, who also has an Italian surname, was considering the Adkins diet. After being explained the the implications for the staffs of life, exclaimed, "No bread?! No pasta?!! That's all I have to hear."
I eat whatever I want to eat. Just not as much. At 43, I'm down to my college weight. Which wasn't rail thin, mind you, and I'd like to lose a little more, but I'm going to do it with portion control, some wise choices, and skipping what I don't really want to eat rather than depriving myself of what I do want.
Oh, and, definitely eat breakfast.
Their diet is high in omega fatty acids, there's the difflonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 12:53 PM
They do eat a lot of fish in Italy, trust me I've been there. They also eat a ton of nuts, olives and olive oil, and the effects of these omega-3s and omega-6 fatty acids tend to mitigate the heart disease and stroke rates, similar to the masking effects of fish in the Japanese diet. It's more complex than just one factor. And all those 'beautiful people' you see walking around in Italy? They're all under 30. Past 40, the rates of obesity approximately match those of the U.S.

The Italians also have a VERY high rate of breast cancer, adult-onset (Type II) diabetes and high blood pressure, and their rate of autoimmune dysfunction has skyrocketed over the past 2 decades. The incidence of breast cancer is nearly an order of magnitude above that of the U.S.

I definitely agree that moderation is a key. The Euros don't eat anywhere near the portion size we do.
My gawd, you have done your homework. Who ARE you? nmbill
Feb 26, 2002 1:13 PM
worked in a lot of specialist health fieldslonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 1:54 PM
I do lots of contract and consultant work, and that which hasn't been in the mechanical engineering fields (G.E., three times) has been in the R&D divisions of healthcare.

At Procter & Gamble, I worked in the clinical audit / pharmaceutical research division. Learned a CRAPLOAD about cardio drugs, hormone replacement therapy, and the risk factors involved in onset of heart disease and osteoporosis.

At Ethicon Endo-Surgery (Johnson & Johnson), I worked in the sales training institute in a dept. with three oncologists, three breast care specialists (try having THAT on your business card!) and two Ph.D's who specialized in metabolic science. I learned a lot about oncology there, specifically breast, ovarian and prostate cancer. I was a team manager and coach at the time and got a lot of helpful advice from them regarding diet for me and my female teammates, several of whom were on the yo-yo diet and negative body image bandwagon.

My most recent job was at a company called OmegaTech, which is a 'biopharma' company that specializes in Omega-3 fatty acid research and development. They are serious about this stuff, unlike most "herbal/natural" charlatans who are in it for the easy money. Thus they do tons of research papers and clinical efficacy work before presenting it to the FDA for approval. Their founder isolated the algae that cold-water fatty fish eat to produce DHA/EPA, then learned how to produce it in a sterile lab environment and extract the oil from it - an affordable, renewable, vegetarian and safe (no heavy metal contamination) source of Omega-3 fatty acids. Omega fatty acids are not the panacea the current marketing hype behind products containing linseed oil, safflower oil, fish oil, olive oil, etc., would have you believe, but they do solve a lot of health problems.

At all of these companies, I did a lot of FDA advisory research and internet research to help supplement my boss' research papers, clinical audits, studies, marketing projects, whatever. You learn things.

I can't wait to see what my next assignment will be. Maybe it will be down the road at Amgen - woohoo, free samples...
Milk. Egads! What do do?McAndrus
Feb 26, 2002 12:45 PM
This milk thing is serious. I've taken a quick look at some internet research and found several sources that agree with you. For the sake of argument let's say you're right. What then do I do with my diet?

For instance, in the last few months I've moved in the paleo direction (although I wouldn't admit that to my wife). And that's been more because of what I've read in the sports nutrition literature than any other reason.

But milk? I eat a lot of cereal (on ride days, I know it's high glycemic) and I love cheese as a snack. I've also begun using a sugar-and-milk mix as a post-ride drink.

How does one replace milk in the diet? It's absolutely pervasive.
Milk replacement & observations on food Nazislonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 1:20 PM
The seriously over-the-edge raw foodies (the most zealot branch of the 'paleo diet' clan) insist on using coconut milk, but I don't care for the taste- far too sweet, ugh! Incidentally, they also claim that you should never eat anything that isn't natural, organic, and that you can't acquire if you were buck-ass naked in the woods with a pointy stick. I won't go into the pointy stick bits, suffice to say the "natural" and "organic" leaves me a little cold. Hell, poison ivy and cow pies are both organic and natural, and you won't catch me eating them. I get fresh fruit from the Boulder farmer's market in summer, and eat the pesticide-drenched genetically engineered ones in winter.

My dad used to give me goat's milk and homemade goat yogurt (which was really a lot tastier than it sounds) when I was a lactose-intolerant kid and I did OK with that.

If you tolerate cow's milk well, and don't suffer any of the usual adverse effects (allergies, headaches, joint pain, muscle cramps), and don't have a history of autoimmune dysfunction in your family, then moderate consumption won't hurt you. Just keep in mind that it's also not doing you any good, and could become a trigger for worse things down the road. If your kids are involved, I'd recommend trying to find milk that's labeled 'hormone/antibiotic-free' at the very least.
Isn't it true that. . .allervite
Feb 26, 2002 2:11 PM
Hormones and antibiotics do not transfer from food source to consumer, although they may cause other undesirable effects. In other words Bovine Steroid is undetectable in the human that eats the cow.

It seems I remember a rider who claimed that this is how he tested positive and the nutritionists shot his excuse down.
Nothing's ever been proven or disproven on steroidslonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 4:21 PM
but the studies simply haven't been large enough or objective enough. There's a distinct lack of interest and funding in this area, I'm sure you can guess why. However, I DID read a couple of studies not long ago that talked about American girls experiencing menarche (onset of puberty) almost 2 1/2 years earlier now than 20 years ago. They weren't able to link it to either steroid or growth hormone in diet, but it's an interesting statistic. Our kids are also giants; a good three to six inches taller than the statistical 'norm' for the rest of the 'civilized' world, and it ain't because they're healthy - our children suffer at higher rates of obesity, juvenile arthritis, ADHD, allergies, athsma, leukemia and juvenile diabetes than any other "westernized" culture on the planet.

Antibiotics, on the other hand HAVE been proven in several cases to pass through the food chain, from detectable sources in milk and meat, to detectable sources in human bloodstream. This has been discussed as one of the main reasons (besides improper prescription use) that we are fighting so many resistant strains these days. The FDA (I've read a lot of warning letters in my time) has clear limits on how and when an animal can be dosed before slaughter, and does random tests on meat for levels afterwards. I had to wade through warning letter after warning letter of packing houses that ignored these levels, and got themselves banned - but it's a 30-day ban without teeth, essentially a slap on the wrist for offenders. By the time the test comes up positive and the ban is put in place, the rest of the tainted product has been sold on the market, and the packer simply shrugs and sells their stock to another slaughterhouse until the 30 day ban is complete.
Milk. Egads! What do do?jenn
Feb 26, 2002 2:28 PM
Soy milk (Silk brand) and rice milk are perfect for cereal. some people don't like to drink it straight, but you can't really taste it with cereal. and just having this on your cereal everyday isn't going to up your estrogens (as mentioned in LFR's detailed reply..thanks for that!). Either way it's better then milk. and if you MUST use milk, go organic.

and if you snack on cheese, the more aged the better as far as lactose intolerance goes.
more on soylonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 4:05 PM
I avoid soy because it's a major trigger of hystemic response. An individual can suddenly develop allergic response to it at any time, and deadly allergic to boot, not just GI distress. I've seen several clinical cases of folks who've never been allergic to any food suddenly developing life-threatening soy allergy after only limited exposure, although as with any allergy, it's highly unpredictable. Most folks are fine with it, but I have a couple food allergies, so I don't take risks. People who are known to be allergic to peanuts and other legumes must be careful to avoid soy, as it will cause the same hystemic response, often with only one exposure.

The plant itself is fairly poisonous if you eat the green leaves/stems and that's enough for me. I grew up on a farm in Ohio and saw what happened to cows that got loose in a green beanfield. Bad, very bad.

With that being said, soy milk is an okay milk substitute, but I'd avoid giving it to small kids / babies. I don't like the taste straight, and don't eat cereal anyway.
Many plants that are poisonous produce edible fruit.allervite
Feb 26, 2002 8:00 PM
Tomatoes for example were known as the "Devils Apple" by american colonists because after the local Indians showed them that the fruit was edible, they tried to make a salad out of its leaves and stems with disasterous consequences.
yes, all members of the nightshade family, includinglonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 8:18 PM
tomatoes and potatoes have poisonous greens. Potatoes that have been allowed to sprout and/or exposed to sunlight to turn green are very bad news. Eating the sprouted 'eyes' has led to the demise of curious toddlers. While you're at it, don't let the little nippers chew on your daffodils either.

Speaking of deadly fruit, mushroom hunting was a favorite pastime of mine as a kid. My dad was pretty much an expert, and I used to bring back loads of gray and black morels from the local woods. Sauteed in a little butter, white wine and black pepper, they're pretty close to the best meal you've ever eaten. Or redneck style, dipped in beer batter and deep fried like everything else a gawd-fearin' redneck brings home from the lake and/or woods. Alas, I'm pretty much stuck with portobellos from the grocery store here in CO.

Tomatoes and their cousins for whatever reason don't trigger anaphylactic shock with the regularity that legumes do. I'm cautious about soy because I have other food allergies, and a half-brother who's deathly allergic to peanuts. Perhaps it's also because I grew up in the midst of fields of the stuff, and can't tolerate the smell of ripe soybeans.
Peloton...where are you??? NMmikebikr
Feb 26, 2002 12:50 PM
vegetables, fruit, nuts, eggs, lean meat and fishkrishna
Feb 26, 2002 2:32 PM
OK, so you say "stick to vegetables, fruit, nuts, eggs, lean meat and fish" but what does that mean? Can you describe a typical meal?

I ask because I've been trying to change my diet by getting rid of fatty greasy foods but I still have a obstinate inner tube around my waist. I have been a fish eating vegetarian for about 6yrs and for the past year have cut out the pizza, fast food ect.. Yet with all that, I cannot imagine a meal without pasta, rice or potatoes as a base. Wouldn't I just shrivel up and end up like Mohatma Gandiji on a very expensive bike (minus the dhoti, of course)?

Here's a sample meal selection:

Breakfast -- Oatmeal & raisins
Lunch -- 2 Amy's pockets & yogurt
Supper -- Potatoes & Peas Curry over Rice Or Beans & Rice w/veggies Or Red Sauce Past w/veggies

So, in your view, none of these items would be healthy, right? Again, can you give a sample of what you mean?
Brush up on your chemistry/immunologyPT
Feb 27, 2002 9:09 AM
While I agree with much of what you say and your diet is wonderful, you do a diservice to biochemists and immunologists everywhere passing off sugar as a simple form of morphine and casein as a virus. The only thing sugar and morphine share in common is that they're both organic molecules. The basis behind their respective physiological responses is completely different. Additionally, your stomach is not part of your immune system and so unless you're mainlining cow's milk, casein isn't being seen as foreign. There's other reasons for allergy responses, but it's not as simple as seeing casein as a virus -- far from it. Actually, we are evolved to use casein, just as we are evolved to deal with proteins in nuts, vegetables, and lean meat.

Your diet is great, but it's not the holy grail that will solve all medical issues. Excuse me if I get a little worked up by this -- biochemistry and biomedical research is my job too, and dealing with autoimmune diseases is a part of my life. It's like the testimonial of a cancer survior, implying that a cancer patient who dies was in some way wanting because they didn't make it. Consider yourself lucky to have found something that works. It's certainly worth a try for anybody, but it's not a cure-all.

Frankly, one reason I appreciate Lance Armstrong so much is because he does consider himself lucky.
fruits and vegetables have lots of sugar too..doug in co
Feb 27, 2002 12:11 PM
I'd guess most fruit has higher sugar content than most grains - so how does this fit into the theory ?

This is an interesting twist on the low-carb diets, which are mere folderol at best, and actively dangerous at worst. By including fruit and vegetables in the paleo plan, there are still reasonable sources of carbohydrates to be had. I'm puzzled as to why grains should be bad for you, other than the speculation that hunter/gatherers did not have access to grains. The sugar rush/morphine conjecture is not convincing, given the significant amount of sugars present in most fruits.

An aside - note that most salmon/trout in stores these days is farm-raised, with antibiotics, and it does not contain the same levels of omega-3 fatty acids as wild fish. Wild saltwater salmonids are by and large endangered species, with crossbreeding from hatchery and farm fish diluting the genetic identity of the wild fish. All tuna, in fact most of the predators at the top of the food chain (swordfish, etc) have significant levels of mercury. Where wild fish populations are still available, they are for the most part being fished at unsustainable levels which will drive the populations to or near extinction in the next few decades. 'Fish' in the sense of natural-grown wild creatures, as such, don't really exist anymore: just as 'beef' is now a hormone/steroid/antibiotic cocktail, with a little meat and fat thrown in.
Of course the irony of the "paleo" diet...Wayne
Feb 27, 2002 12:35 PM
is that most people consuming it at the time were lucky if they lived much past 30. I guess that's not quite accurate, if you survived childhood you probably stood a good chance of living to the ripe old age of 50 or so, unless you were a woman and had to get by that first childbirth without dying in your late-teens, then maybe you could live to "old-age". Of course, so many infants and children died from malnutrition/starvation (or the associated compromised immune systems) that the average life expectancy was probably only in the 20s. Now, we suffer from just the opposite problem, too much food/nutrition and really what kills us are diseases for which we have little genetic protection since natural selection hasn't had the oppurtunity to act on them. Namely, cardiovascular disease and cancer, which generally don't kill you until you're old and probably not reproducing anymore anyway.
indeed yes - diseases of affluencedoug in co
Feb 27, 2002 12:39 PM
is what we worry about here, wallowing in the luxury of it all. Whereas most of the world is still worried about diseases of poverty, aka getting enough to eat..
indeed yes - diseases of affluence...Wayne
Feb 27, 2002 1:06 PM
at least here in the western world, but the other big killer was infectious disease. Which really wasn't a problem when we were lowly hunter-gathers because they couldn't spread rapidly enough to survive. Then we get agriculture, and guess what? With enough food we start multiplying like rabbits. Eventually, some of us don't even have to farm since there so much food we can become politicians and tradesmen. But now we live in densely populated filthy cities, ideal breeding grounds for infectious disease and we get the multitude of plagues that hit Europe/Asia/Africa in the middle ages. And we have had the genetic arms race between the pathogens and us ever since, with medical advances giving us the upperhand at the moment esp. in the 1st world. There's your World History 101 for the day. (Isn't this a bike racing discussion group?)
Mar 11, 2002 8:49 AM
Crap! I didn't know the protein in cow's milk pretty much passes through you. That sux. Wait, no, milk causing kidney stones, that's what sux! As per the nutritional contents in milk, 0% fat, 9 grams of protein (and I get it from an organic store to limit ingesting any more chemicals than needed). I thought the stuff was god's gift when it came to a healthy drink. So... now what? Anything else out there that you can drink with no fat yet high in protein? PLEASE LET ME KNOW! If not, looks like it's back to water. So flavorful.
LFR can you please give us a sample diet...853
Feb 26, 2002 2:20 PM
I am also struggling w/ my weight. specialy after having surgery and being laid off of excercise for a year. I thought I would bounce back to my normal weight as soon as I started to excercise...It didn't happen.
I'm lost as to what to do. Looks like you have done alot of research and know exactly what you are doing...Can you please give us a sample for the day diet.(I know it's not a "diet" but a nutritional change)
Some ideas include:lonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 3:34 PM
The best shopping tip I ever got from a co-worker was: "Don't go down the aisles at the supermarket. Stick to the perimeter, because the aisles are where all the processed (crap) is."

1 or 2 whole eggs, depending on how hungry I am, scrambled with Tony Chachere's (cajun spice) and vegetarian chile verde. Couple small slices of lean "canadian bacon" (ham would do). 1/4 of a fresh pineapple, or a large whole orange, or a cup of strawberries, depending on what's in season. 8-oz glass of orange juice, high pulp (the fiber helps curb the blood sugar spike you get from drinking fruit juice).

Big leafy green salad with almonds, pine nuts, olives, onion, carrot, sprouts and a can of drained water pack tuna, turkey cubes or a boiled egg on the side. Or an avocado half, or sometimes I skip the salad and do a big piece of winter squash (cut in half, sprinkled with paprika and baked ahead of time). Occasionally I go against the official paleo rules in favor of convenience and make a 'wrap', which is a large tortilla wrapped around anything you'd typically put in a sandwich, although I avoid cheese pretty much altogether.

1 whole 6-oz skinless, boneless chicken breast, sauteed in garlic and olive oil, with herbs. Can substitute 6 oz lean ground beef or turkey, or a big bowl of hearty soup (I don't use pasta, barley, rice or potatoes in my soups, so canned is out of the question - I make homemade).
Couple big spoonfuls of frozen chopped spinach, steamed with garlic and balsamic vinegar or mustard seeds, OR steamed broccoli with garlic and lemon juice, or green beans with rosemary and almonds - you get the idea. Or do a big salad if you didn't do one for lunch and/or it's too hot to cook.

Breakfast is my biggest meal of the day. I keep dinner small, and usually am not that hungry when it rolls around to dinnertime. I graze a lot during the day, which is supposed to keep the metabolism ticking away at a good rate. This is a big change from my old lifestyle of "can't snack, it's bad for you...gotta skip breakfast, you're eating too much...gotta skip lunch, don't have time..." - and then you come home so wasted and shaky from hypoglycemia that you sit down in front of the TV and eat your roommate's ENTIRE BAG of Oreos.

We bought a dehydrator and make our own dried apples and buffalo jerky to snack on (jerky is much cheaper, lower salt and sans chemicals if you make your own). I also keep apples, oranges, carrots, broccoli, sunflower seeds, unsalted nuts in the shell and grapes around all the time.

I often make a big pot of soup on Saturday or Sunday night, then eat it over the week - the ultimate convenience food. Sometimes I'll roast a pork loin or beef roast on Sunday evening, then carve it up and use it over the week. Pots of hardboiled eggs, couple of winter squash, same deal. Frozen or canned veggies are simple to make and easy to keep, but fresh ones taste much better if you have the time to fuss with them. We shop at Sam's Club and buy chicken breasts bulk, same with ground turkey or lean ground beef; just patty it up and freeze.

My best lunchtime snack discovery: Lettuce rolls! I roll a piece of turkey or roast beef up in a romaine lettuce leaf, dip it in some type of garlicky or mustard herb dressing. Yum.

Some of my favorite recipes include:
*Zucchini and tomatoes, sauteed Italian-style, with a grilled chicken breast or fish on top
* Carrot soup
* Chicken soup
* "Greens" with bacon ends, and if you've never been taught how to prepare real greens by a real cook, don't even bother. I lived in the 'hood in Cincinnati, and our neighbor lady taught me greens proper. Emeril Lagasse has the right idea in his recipe, but no ghetto queen would ever use that expensive wine - beer tastes just fine. BTW cooking with beer or wine is OK as long as you reduce the sauce after you put the booze in. The alcohol cooks out, and leaves the taste without most of the carbs.
* While we're on the beer subject, beer steamed shrimp in Old Bay (from BEFORE I was a redneck, when my folks lived in D.C.)
* Liver & onions, don't go "ewww" until you've tried it done right.
* Goulash: ground beef, onions, tomato, bell peppers, and any other veggies you've got lying around, full of paprika, coriander and other wonderful spices. This is what Hamburger helper tries to be, and fails miserably at.
* Curry anything. This is the only time I happily use coconut milk.

Check for lots of tips and great recipes. At restaurants, they're often happy to substitute steamed veggies for the starch, and at Chinese restaurants I simply order an entree and let my boyfriend eat the rice.
Feb 26, 2002 3:42 PM
This is amazing! The posts of late have been really profound. It's nice to look up the replys and see educated articulate responses here. Bravo CYCLISTS!( clap clap clap )
LFR your fan club just grew by one....well done
Feb 26, 2002 5:16 PM
make that two, that's for all the great info...I just learned that my diet sucks more than I THOUGHT it did (I'm a pasta fiend and I also have to work within the constraints of dorm food) but I'll try this out next year when I cook for myself, and for now maybe a few more salad's with eggs and less pasta and breads...just tell me this though, there's nothing wrong with the Balsamic vinegrette on my salad's is there? If I have to give that up I'm turning my back on salads all together! :)
again, the keylonefrontranger
Feb 26, 2002 8:03 PM
If you aren't a carboholic/sugar addict, easily tolerate small (and I mean a tightly closed fist-sized serving) amounts of pasta or starches without triggering hunger cravings, and you're otherwise doing well, then there's no reason to completely exorcise cereal / starch from your diet. I'm the original poster child for carb addiction, and I still have a tortilla wrap every now and then, or dip my fish in egg and cracker crumbs before I bake it.

Maybe this will help: That food pyramid guidelines the USDA gives us; substitute veggies and lean meat for the 2 bottom 'steps', and at the peak ("use sparingly") put sugars and/or starches. There's no reason not to have something you truly enjoy every so often. In fact, one of the biggest proponents of this program, and the person who helped me the most (my dietician mentor at Ethicon) actually advocates going on a real screaming binge once a month or so, so you don't feel deprived. Have some fries! Polish off the whole damn bag of chips! Go to the company picnic and eat the entire freakin' bowl of potato salad, whatever. As long as you're able to stay on the wagon the rest of the time, going on a bender like this won't hurt, and may even help keep your metabolism from going into 'storage' mode.

And no, balsamic vinegar is perfectly fine. That and Tony Chachere's (and garlic!) are the major condiments in my household.
Tear this to bits......jim hubbard
Feb 26, 2002 10:27 PM
Having seen what you have done with everyone elses diet, you'll love this

100g Nutrigrain
150ml trim milk
2X black coffee

100g fruitcake

100g brown rice
200g chicken


250g fresh pasta
150ml tomato pasta sauce

Additional Info

I work outside for 6-8 hours plus train a minimum of 3 on top of that I eat breakfast at 5'o clock in the morning, lunch 12 and dinner 8 at nite.

Well I can see a number of 'rules' that have been broken/bent. So any suggestions? I have found eating the rice with the chicken kurbs the GI spike, and the pasta is quick and convenient that late at nite.
does it work well for you?lonefrontranger
Feb 28, 2002 8:33 AM
If so, and you're happy, then there's no need to change it. As you can see above, there are several posters who don't feel that my particular program works either. This seems to be a very portion-controlled, low calorie, low volume diet that a lot of folks (myself included) simply don't have the discipline to stick to.

My particular program works for me, and it's worked for a number of other people, in most cases those who are experiencing serious trouble with a carb/sugar addiction pattern: hunger cravings, mood swings, low energy, et cetera - which is the pattern the original poster described and that I've personally experienced. However, it will not work for everyone. I'm not a food Nazi, nor someone who plans to go on the Internet and make a million with some crazy 'fad' diet that they claim is a panacea. No diet is a panacea.

Probably the best thing about my program and the reason it works well for a lot of people is that it removes them from dependence on convenient boxes of processed junk food and forces them to prepare healthy, nutritious meals.

If you're active, thriving, your energy level is fine, you don't have cravings and like the convenience, then you tolerate this particular diet well. Some people don't do well at all on a high-carb lowfat diet, and I'm one of them. My dietician friend at my company figured this out through a long series of questions, observation, I had to make a journal of everything I ate, and at the end of a couple months, she came up with a recommendation that is based on the common theme of 'paleo' diet. In my course of work, I've seen a lot of clinical data to back this program up, but of course one can make statistics say a lot of things you want them to :-)

I'd seriously recommend everyone that is having dietary issues to go to a professional dietician, just as I did.

If you truly want an opinion on what to do with your particular diet, then I'd recommend at the least cutting down on the coffee intake, and taking some of your calorie load spread out more through the day as snacks - nuts, cut veggies or fruit. This helps keep the metabolism going; it's been well proven that folks who 'graze' throughout the day have higher metabolisms and are leaner in body mass.

The thing I see seriously lacking in this program is fresh fruits or vegetables for natural vitamin sources, so I hope you take a multi supplement.
does it work well for you?jim hubbard
Feb 28, 2002 10:33 AM
Cheers, LFR I was just after an opinion. I know that my diet is lacking in fruit/ veggies and I take B complex, c, e, and iron as suppliments. I guess at the end of the day diet is an individual thing what works for one won't work for all. We can make general rules but there will always be people who these don't apply for. PS I like my coffee and it is one of the things that I "treat" myself to.
Gu and other eats during ridesskimoviestar
Mar 1, 2002 8:49 PM
Great posts... Thanks. What do you eat during rides. I'm used to using Gu, Extran and Accelarade. I don't know if I can keep spinning without GU on long rides. I'm riding 80 tomorrow and my first century next Saturday. Lonefrontranger... do you have any ride fueling tips for me?
don't change suddenlylonefrontranger
Mar 2, 2002 12:02 AM
Sudden changes from what you typically use can wreak havoc with your system, cause any amount of GI distress, and really negatively impact the result of a long ride. If you're going to try anything new, do so gradually and switch well before an important target ride.

I eat bananas on long steady rides, although I'll often do a Clif Shot prior to starting in a crit (short intense effort). I personally haven't seen good results from trying to fuel an entire long steady effort (like a century) on glucose gels (Clif Shot/GU, etc.) I have seen plenty of folks bonk doing this because all that stuff really does is give you a 30-minute sugar hit; it does mostly nothing for the glycogen stores. I also stay away from the caffeinated ones because they tend to give me a bigger 'crash' effect after the initial hit wears off.

I use and prefer Shaklee electrolyte replacement drink mix, although I'm 'officially' at the mercy of whatever sports nutrition sponsor my current team uses. Shaklee doesn't hurt my stomach like Gatorade or Exceed (both too strong/acidic), it's bland to the taste (no cotton-mouth), and is pretty low in simple sugars. It's also very expensive, and you have to go through a local distributor to obtain it. If you like and tolerate the Extran and Accelerade, I see no reason to switch. I run about 50/50 electrolyte replacement and water: on a long ride I'll pack 2 bottles of electrolyte and fill my 50-oz Camelbak with plain water.

A good recovery tip: Make sure you eat something reasonably substantial within 45 minutes of finishing a hard ride and/or effort. You may not feel like eating this soon after an event, but packing some post-ride munchies will help keep you from pulling over to eat an entire Billy Bob's $4.95 all-you-can shovel Smorgasboard an hour or so later driving home from the event. The 45-minute window is when your body is primed to refuel the glycogen system, rather than storing any excess calories as fat.
Great tips; thanks for the info (nm)skimoviestar
Mar 3, 2002 1:22 PM
Diet questionjbw
Mar 3, 2002 9:33 PM
I'm a latecomer to this post and have just caught up. Holey smokes, you guys covered it all. I got some great advice and learned that lots of folks are really having similar issues as I have been (trying to knock about 10 lbs off for the season, milk issues, and diet questions).

I've recently switched to Soy and gone off coffee (first 3 days sucked) and my stomach feels great. Beforehand, I was feeling like crap lots of the time. I went off milk first, and then coffee. I have a splash now and then but LATER in the day when i've got some food in my stomach.

A couple of questions: 1) how much is too much protein? I work next store to a wholesale fish market and pretty much eat it every night for dinner along with some rice or couscous and a steamed veggie. For lunch, i usually have a buritto or a turkey sandwich or salad with last night's fish or chicken. Is that too much protein? Am i ignoring carbs too much? i almost never eat pasta and sometimes have bread with dinner.

2) Breakfast: I eat a bowl of cereal around 9:15 and I'm fine until lunch around 12:15 with maybe a piece of fruit in between. Should I try to eat more for breakfast and closer to when I get up (@7ish)? Even if I'm not hungry then, should I eat more? Will this make me less hungry around lunch?

thanks-- JB
Diet questionpeloton
Mar 8, 2002 12:14 PM
I'll try to give you some answers here.

For your first question on protein, I would say that first off that I'm jealous that you have access to a fresh seafood place like that. In terms of protein in your diet though, you are probably pretty close but it's hard to say without looking at your portions. I would keep the ratio of protein in your diet to about 15% of your total calories.. If you keep this in line with your calories in relation to how much activity you are getting you will be on the money. There are studies out there that show things like endurance athletes needing 57% more protein than the average RDA reccomended diet provides in periods of training. This is based on a 2000 calorie a day diet with an RDA of 63 grams of protein though. When you riding a lot you are probably in the 3000+ realm, so by keeping the ratio at 15% of total calories you take in this extra 57% without any thought. Any more than this percentage and you are just using the protein for energy and ATP production, and you are best served by meeting these needs with the more efficient carbohydrate. For carbs I would stick to a range of 55-60% of your daily calories, and here I would more look to what type of carbs you are taking in. It was mentioned above that all carbs aren't equal. Stay away from highly glycemic foods that break down quickly like sugars and refined foods. Think white bread, sugars, refined grain products. Stick to more complex, moderately glycemic foods for steadier blood glucose and better results. With carbs, it's all about the blood sugar. There's lots of info out there on the glycemic index of foods if you are curious about this.

For breakfast and the early morning I would just try to eat enough to get your blood sugar up. Maybe this doesn't mean to eat more at once, but to make sure you are grazing on moderately glycemic snacks through the morning like fruit. Not letting your blood glucose drop at this point in the day will keep your body from encouraging you to eat too much later because it thinks it is being starved. A whole grain cereal will also be better than a refined one because it will give you a greater feeling of satiety, and less spikes and drops of your blood glucose.

Hope this helps. A lot of it is pretty repetitve to some of the posts above too though, there is a lot of good info contributed to this thread. Some days I am really impressed with the knowledge base of some of the posters here. Look at LFR's, Wayne's, Netso's (morey) or Jon's posts and see what I mean.
re: For the love of God, help me!shop at the gap
Mar 7, 2002 11:09 PM
i lost a lot of weight, by watching mtv. you might try that.