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quality of muscle development and recovery & veganism(12 posts)

quality of muscle development and recovery & veganismXknuckle_upX
Jan 23, 2002 9:07 AM
i am getting more and more involved in racing and i feel that as a vegan i consume significantly less protein than most my fellow riders.. this could be resulting in less muscle output and worse muscle recovery after workouts... just curious as to whether or not there are any other vegan/vegetarian racers out there and how do you supplement your protein intake.
re: quality of muscle development and recovery & veganismjjtriumph
Jan 23, 2002 4:19 PM
ughghghg...i just wrote a freakin 23 page reply to this..and it didnt post..so this one is going to be conciderably shorter...here is the jist of it:

here are some ideas for more protein
* add some wheatgerm to your morning hot oatmeal
* quinua pasta...sooo good
* soy enriched pita bread (22grams per pocket)
* falafel..easy to make and add some soy pita!!!

i use soy milk and protein powder about once a day...easy way to get another 30 grams...

for recovery drinks, i use SmartFuel Warpaide...and then i add some protein powder.. i have found that TwinLabs VeggieFuel works great...its soy based and easily mixes...plus pretty cheap.
Endurox and Smartfuel use around a 3:1 carb to protein ratio....this is very easily reconstructed by mixing your own stuff... i think most give around 15-20grams of protein and 45-50 grams of carbs...
this tastes good and has the same "feel" as the other premixed whey based recovery drink.

most of the stuff i have read suggests about .5grms of protein per pound of body weight...athletes should use closer to 1grm / pound.

suggested readings:
"becoming vegan"
"the vegetarian sports nutrition guide"
"the sports nutrition guidebook"

hope that helps...email me if you got any suggestions!

-jj
re: quality of muscle development and recovery & veganismWoof the dog
Jan 23, 2002 11:40 PM
who said you have to be a vegan? Meat is good for you!!! And its tasty...yum!!! Imagine how many pathogens your immune system kills!!! IF i were you I'd reexamine my views upon the world. In any case, don't take it too personally and do whatever floats your boat!

ARrrrrrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhh
dont take it personally???jjtriumph
Jan 24, 2002 2:51 PM
first off..nobody said anyone had to be a vegan. it is a personal choice...and he was not pushing that on anyone.

meat is good for you?? have you read ANY sort of studies on this subject or are you just talkin out your arse?

why would you suggest he "reexamine his views" ??? its easy to follow your beliefs when there are no struggles involved...its a total different thing to stick true to what you blieve, even if it involves changing your entire lifestyle, and putting up with people questioning, ridiculing, and insulting you.

dont worry, i didnt take it personally :)
meat-eater...merckx56
Jan 24, 2002 6:04 PM
a study done at the 1996 summer, 1998 winter and 2000 summer games showed that exactly 1 (one,uno,un) percent of olympic (read:world class) athletes were vegetarians! i say to each his own, eat grass and the like if you want to, but the study has to say something! i try to shy away from red meat too, but chicken tastes too good! and no, i'm not pulling it out of my arse, it was quoted in velonews!
going to be toughpeloton
Jan 24, 2002 7:08 PM
There are studies out there that show both good and bad things about meat. Same could be said for plant food sources. You could rationalize about any stance you wanted against or for any food source if you look hard enough.

FWIW- Being a vegan and a top level athlete is going to be a tough thing to do. The Velonews survey is true, and has been repeated before. For reference, about 10% of the world's population is some level of vegetarian to the one percent of Olympic athletes. Even less of that 1% are vegan. I don't think that I would be so worried about getting ENOUGH protein as I would worry about getting complete proteins. You are going to need to make sure your consumption of food sources creates enough lysine and methionine, 2 amino acids that aren't found in complete sources in any plant source. You can create it through combinations of foods though. Watch out for vitamin b12 as well. B12 is not found in any plant source, and you will need to supplement. B12 defieciency takes years to develop because the body can store some of it, even though it is a water soluble vitamin. It does affect the nerves though when it is deficient, so you can see why you don't want to mess with it. Iron will also be of concern for an athlete. Studies have shown decreased levels of iron in even semi-vegetarians. This can be exacerbated by altitude and training. Low iron levels can cause lethargy and anemia, so the negative affects for a cyclist are obvious enough. This is even more true for female athletes due to menstruation. Another problem I have seen in vegetarian athletes is variety in their diets. Mix it up. Eating the same thing day in and day out is not good for you. A well balanced diet is a diet rich in variety.

From my experience, a vegan diet isn't the best thing for achieving athletic potential. Flame away, but this is what I have seen in working with athletes. Longer recovery times, and decreased performance. You can try to make it work, but you will need to be very well read, and careful. Even then I would also expect performance levels to not be as high as they could be with other diet choices. Good luck with it though.
good points...here is a couple more.jjtriumph
Jan 25, 2002 4:47 PM
although B12 is not found "naturally" in plant sources, it is easily obtained by eating items that are enriched with it...here are some examples: (the USRDA is 6mcg/day)

Fortified Raisin Bran 1.5mcg
Product19 6mcg
Total 6.2mcg
Edensoy Extra 3mcg

im sure there are others....but just a quick few.
i have read that most of the cases of B12 deficiency DOES NOT occur with vegan...and accutally, its not do to a lack of intake, but rather a lack of absorbtion which can be a factor with age..

again, iron can be an issue...but certainly with properly planning will not give you any worries. eat your green leafy veggies, baked potatoes, black beans, chickpeas, pinto beans, soy beans, tofu, quinoa, etc.
i have been veggie for about 8 years, and have had my iron levels tested at the docs a few times...always been fine.

for what its worth, a study in austalia (Ball et al, 1999)
showed the average intake of 25 omnibores to be 15.8 mg
while the 39 vegetarians averaged 20.4 mg. true, i would like to see more people in the studies, but other studies have showed the average vegetarian gets as much or more iron than omnivores. oh yeah..the RDA is 10mg

blah blah blah
you laugh at tao and tao laughs at youWoof the dog
Jan 25, 2002 12:35 AM
hey, look what I found: http://forums14.consumerreview.com/crforum?viewall@@.eed4695

I respect others, but at some point I have to say what I really think. Yes, "don't take it personally" part contradicts what I've said before, but I was just trying to be nice. We all know one needs a thick skin to stick around here. Internet is not for the fragile-minded underweight biker weenies anyway.

I don't have a bs or md in physiology or any other field (just yet), but I truly think eating meat like all of our ancestors did is a necessary thing to do. I have no problem w/ cattle slaughter too.

Good thing we don't get to talk to each other face to face, 'cause it would all end in a gun fight.

Sincerely

Woof the meat-eating dog.
From the mouths and minds of canines..Jon Billheimer
Jan 25, 2002 9:29 AM
sometimes comes smart stuff. From an evolutionary point of view we are omnivores. Enough said?

As a further aside on Peloton's post, Olympic swimming champion Mark Tewkesbury noted that prior to the games his coach had him strictly on white meat as his protein source. He was losing strength and not recovering. So as a corrective measure, on his own, he started eating red meat twice to three times a week. His strength and recovery came back and he went on to win a gold medal. The fact is we need nutrients and nutrient combinations found in a wide variety of foods, including meat sources.
From the mouths and minds of canines..peloton
Jan 25, 2002 10:22 AM
Alison Dunlap has said about the same thing. She was quoted as saying a year or two ago that red meat was her secret weapon. She said that her recovery times and performance are better when she supplements her diet with red meat in moderation. It is an excellent source of heme iron and some very high quality protein. I wouldn't tell an athlete to eat it every day, but I think it has a very useful purpose. I know it works with female athletes. I've seen the difference in girls I have worked with. They think it's funny when I tell them to eat a steak for dinner, but it can do a lot paricularly during hard training especially if it is during mestruation. I really believe our bodies are omnivorous by nature and millions of years of diet evolution. We don't need a lot of meat, particularly red meat, but I do believe that we need some. FWIW :)
we dont NEED it....jjtriumph
Jan 25, 2002 2:31 PM
first off...meat is not a necessity for people to live....there are plenty of healthy active athletes who dont eat animals, myself included.

i would be foolish to say that it is not difficult or that it doesnt take work...and obviously a meat eater with a "balanced" diet is going to be alot better off than a vegetarian that only eats iceberg lettuce.
does whey protein work better at recover than soy?? yeah..maybe...but so what??

part of the problem is that, it requires alot of knowlege of nutrition to be a vegan/veggie athlete...some people look at new veggies who dont know how to eat and assume that all vegetarians are unhealthy and "protein deprived"

whether or not humans are supposed to eat meat is a completely different topic....for people who say that, i tell them, "fine, then go out and hunt and kill your animal and utilize the entire thing" it certainly will be alot healthier than eating a BigMac.
you cant honestly tell me, that animals ARE SUPPOSED to be raised and mistreated thier entire lifes, just to feed humans!!?!?!?
if you saw video clips of what goes on in a slaughter house it would make you sick...i showed it to a guy i work with, who is a big time hunter, and even he was surprised at all of the stuff that goes on, and said that it wasnt right....

in all honesty, if i found out tomorrow that i was required to eat meat to be able to compete in cycling, i would sell my bikes in a heartbeat. as much as i love racing, im not going to do something that i believe is wrong, just for some selfish reasons.

and i know for a fact that vegetarians can race against meat eaters and beat them, cause i do it quite often :)

read adam mysersons views on veganism and racing...
i dont know about you...but i think he kicks some major arse, and he doesnt rely on animals.
Totally unrelated to cycling but. . .allervite
Jan 25, 2002 9:48 PM
You have a Good point of view. I am a hunter like your friend also, and I don't feel good at all about what goes on in capatalized animal rearing. Killing is a necessary part of life. Life lives off life, whether insects, vegetables or mamals. There is no getting around that. The cruelty is the inhuman "human" aspect of the equation that is so ugly. I respect you for not eating meat.