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Guys (girls ...) Let's clear the doping issue :(17 posts)

Guys (girls ...) Let's clear the doping issue :cyclomoteur
Nov 30, 2001 4:09 PM
Who of you take drugs, vitamins, supplements, puts 6 drops of xyz in water...???
This question is for racers AND for amateurs.

I'm not talking about watching what you are eating, I'm talking about boosting performance with a non-natural way.

I guess Lance and his friends are all taking stuff, is it hormones ?, why they dont get caugh ? Do they take 10kgs vitamins else then hormones ? Who knows but, doing the TdF like they do (we are talking about 40kph ave. WITH HILLS) is quite hard to aechive without somekind of a crap.

I just want to know if this has transfered to lower levels of competition.

I was doing bench-press competition last week at school, I'm training 15hours musculation/week but one guy who was much of a fagot last year, just wiped my ass off with 5 time 230lbs, damn he wasn't able to do 165 lbs one year ago...
-Guillaume
re: Guys (girls ...) Let's clear the doping issue :The Hammer
Dec 1, 2001 10:13 AM
"I was doing bench-press competition last week at school, I'm training 15hours musculation/week but one guy who was much of a fagot last year, just wiped my ass off with 5 time 230lbs, damn he wasn't able to do 165 lbs one year ago... "
So who's the fag now, fag?!
re: Guys (girls ...) Let's clear the doping issue :mclements
Dec 2, 2001 12:58 PM
There is no bright line between food and drug. All foods are chemicals that affect the body. Race sanctioning bodies can only single out those chemicals that provide an "unnatural" effect. While we can all think of things that are "definitely a drug" or "definitely not a drug", there is a sliding scale from food to drug with many things upon which reasonable people disagree how to categorize.

Me? I drink only water and eat my wife's home made vegan cookies made with whole wheat pastry flour. Most of the guys I ride with drink formulations like cyto-max and eat specially formulated energy bars. I think they're emphasizing trivialities and missing out on what's really important.

Whenever one rider does better than others, whether it was Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault, Greg LeMond or now Lance, people try to find some excuse in the bicycle, the biomechanics of the rider, the kind of food he eats, drugs he takes, or whatever. I think people underestimate the impact of guts, raw determination and sheer will. Winners consistently demonstrate that this is one thing they have more of than other riders. Some riders drop out when they are injured in a crash or get a chafed crotch. Hinault rode the tour with a broken nose, LeMond did it with a bad case of gastroenteritis, Lance came back from cancer.

The limits of the human body are higher than we imagine. It takes good old fasioned guts and raw determination to dig deep and keep going, to perform through adversity. Winners want it more than the other riders, and are willing to put out what it takes to achieve their desire. I believe this is the primary factor that separates the winners from the rest of the pack.

I saw an inspiring example of this in La Ruta de los Conquistadores this year. This is arguably the most brutal and demanding mtn bike race in the world, with unbelievably hard and psychologically defeating hike-a-bike sections up 30% grades, incredible unrideable jungle mud, and 25,000' of climbing over the 3 days. Only about half the riders finish the race. One of the finishers this year was Brett Wolfe. You might have heard of him before; he's a pro rider who years ago lost his right leg above the knee.

So here's a one-legged guy who finishes a race that is impossible for many skilled pro riders. Are you going to ask what drugs he was taking? Don't assume that somebody is taking drugs, just because he can outperform you or do what seems to be impossible.
Exactly,TJeanloz
Dec 3, 2001 8:18 AM
The question of doping is intensly complicated, because it is a grey area. What is doping to one person is not to another. Here are some examples:

Creatine? It is a naturally occuring substance, you could eat certain foods to boost creatine levels in your body, you could take a tablet that has concentrated the creatine from these foods. Eating specific foods is probably not doping from anybody's POV, but taking a tablet that contains the same thing is considered doping by some.

Traditional blood doping? This involves taking out a couple of pints, putting them in the 'fridge for a month while your body replenishes, then putting the original pints back in for a net gain of red blood cells. Now, they're all YOUR blood cells- they came out of your body, but almost everybody considers this to be doping.

Vitamins? Same argument as creatine- you eat them every day, what's wrong with eating more of them?

EPO? It wasn't designed as a performance enhancer- but to increase red blood cells for those who need them. Athletes just happen to need them...most people also agree that this is doping.

I've been in this sport a long time, and I really haven't really decided where I stand on doping. And I think that's the problem- not everybody is convinced that there is a problem.
Exactly,Jon
Dec 3, 2001 9:24 AM
TJ makes a good point. This is an issue of semantics, on a VERY slippery slope. I think a more
helpful point of view in sport is that in order to keep the sport honest and fair, one must adhere
to the rules, whatever they happen to be. That is the issue, essential fairness. The other criterion
established by most sporting bodies is "health of the athlete." While this is quite valid, it also
becomes debatable over what kind of doping has what health consequence. In this area as
well there is a lot of posturing, propaganda, and plain old lack of real specific knowledge.
re: Guys (girls ...) Let's clear the doping issue :brider
Dec 3, 2001 9:32 AM
Supplementing, a very grey area. I take glucosamine, occassionally ipriflavone, Vitex (on a 5 week on, two week off cycle), ginseng, caffiene, protein, and Coenzyme Q-10. As for Lance, yes, I believe he's taking something, and we'll probably not know what it is for some time. Is it legal? Most certainly yes (by UCI standards). Does it help lower levels of competition? Yes, but to a lesser extent. These are SUPPLEMENTS, which means in addition to the basics. It won't take you over the top if you're not already at the top on your own. Remember, at the TdF level, just 1% will make a HUGE difference. You would most likely see much greater than that just taking your training and diet to the next level. As for the "faggot" who out lifted you, he most likely did a more intelligent training and nutrition plan than you, regarding this particular lift. 165 to 230 isn't unheard of for a relative beginner. I think you're overdoing it at 15 hours per week lifting: You're either doing a lot of submaximal work, or doing a lot of jaw jacking.
The guy gains weight - I see Lance back from cancer.cyclomoteur
Dec 4, 2001 10:57 AM
The guy, a friend of mine (not for so long if I get to know he's doping), isn't training really good, he's eating chips and hot-dogs, playing PS2 all the time, doing some weightlifting here and there and his parents aren't arnold shawrzenneger (whatever). He has gain a massive amouth of weight (I'm talking 20lbs in less then a year) and doesn't got any cardio.

On my other sight I got Lance Armstrong (and his friends) back from a TESTICULAR cancer, EPOs, hormones that you can go get in the drugstores, bla-bla-bla

I just want to know if doping (whatever is drawing the limit of doping) is used in amateur sports. This will give me a better idea
-Guillaume
"supplements" in the lower ranksbrider
Dec 4, 2001 12:39 PM
To answer you're question -- yes, I do believe there is some use in the amatuer ranks, but probably to a lesser extent. Financial issues would probably limit most from partaking. However, there are those who will do "whatever it takes" to win, even when there's no real prize other than pride and bragging rights.
Let's take the case of Brider.cyclomoteur
Dec 4, 2001 11:01 AM
Read last post from Brider : brider 12/3/01 9:32am

Does that kind of nutrition has spread all over the sport ?
-Guillaume
Nutrition and posting.Dean
Dec 4, 2001 3:56 PM
If the cost is $3.00 and the gross profit is $4.50, what is the price?

Dude I'm going to try and speak your language here. I was weight lifter and then a bicycle racer--both dirt and road.
With both sports, nutrition and rest are very important. In my experience, dangerous and illegal drugs are far more prevalent in the gym. With a weight lifter, you will achieve success by 20% training, and 80% rest and nutrition.
Weight lifters take drugs to reduce their recovery time. Then they can work out more often. On a steroid cycle you work out much more often. So if you and I have a contest in four weeks, and I do a cylce of steroids. I will work out far more often than you. It would be like I took 12 weeks to train instead of four. However, these advantages diminish over time. Genetics (how strong your parents are) will limit us both. Sooner or later we will both hit the ceiling.

In cycling drug abuse exists, but it is expensive for the good stuff. Caffeine and other stimulants are not that huge of an advantage. Steroids will help you train, but not so much in a race. Drugs that increase you oxygen absorption will make you go fast and far, but they are expensive and almost impossible to obtain. You will see stimulant abuse in the lower ranks, but that's about it. It mostly raises your pain threshold, but you will still blow when the time comes.

Also, cycling is not the macho individual sport weight lifting is. You need friends in the group or you will not likely win. Four guys who don't like you will do you more harm to your success than one guy on drugs. So quit using words like "Fagot." All that will get you is dropped on the next climb.

Another thing on supplements that are legal, but may be dangerous. If it is something designed to supplement naturally occurring substances in you system, it is probably going to hurt you in the long run (Steroids). If it is something designed to stimulate your body to produce more of a naturally occurring substance, then you are a little safer (Amino acids).

Brider is not doing drugs, he is practicing good nutrition.
Steroids = supplements ?cyclomoteur
Dec 4, 2001 4:45 PM
"Another thing on supplements that are legal, but may be dangerous. If it is something designed to supplement naturally occurring substances in you system, it is probably going to hurt you in the long run (Steroids). "

We don't have the same view of supplements...

"With a weight lifter, you will achieve success by 20% training, and 80% rest and nutrition" If this is right it may change my training session...I'll already resting good (8-10hours/day) but I though nutrition wasn't really important in weightlifting.

Do you got some fast (easy) infos for nutrition, I'll check that here and there.

I'm very mad now : I've just realized I've wasted 2 years of VERY hard and painfull work.

Can you assure me that nutrition is in the equation of weightlifting, hope what you are saying ain't shit.

-Guillaume
...
at least I won't waste my hole life !
Steroids = supplements ?Bobo
Dec 5, 2001 7:00 AM
Go pick up an issue of Muscle & Fitness or any bodybuilding magazine. At least 60% of the articles deal with nutrition/legal supplementation.

Obviously, bodybuilding has little to do with cycling, but these guys know nutrition - it's their life.

Even in cycling, nutrition (as it relates to fueling and recovery) can make or break you.

Good luck and have fun.
Steroids = supplements ?brider
Dec 5, 2001 7:15 AM
A good online source of nutrition and suppplementing information is Testosterone Magazine (a bodybuilding magazine). They have a pretty balanced approach, and while they do provide the occasional steroid information (usually how to spot the fake stuff, and how to "safely" do a cycle), they do not advocate steroid use, and constantly warn of the potential adverse effects. Yes, they do have a line of supplements, which I do not use. Here's a link:

http://www.testosterone.net/
Steroids = illegal, dangerous supplements ?allervite
Dec 11, 2001 10:58 AM
Amino acids = safe legal supplements
Whey protein = safe legal supplements
Food = safe legal supplements

Draw the line at "illegal, unsafe, or suspect"

I don't know any seriously competitive body builders or powerlifters who are not fanatical about nutrition. My advice to you would be to at least make sure you eat a balanced meal after each workout. Buy and take a multivitamin. Buy and take an Amino Acid complex. Amino acids are the building blocks of protein. They have been used by athletes for years. They are not illegal in any sport. I guarantee results in four to eight weeks if you do this and work out intelligently and consistantly, especailly if you have not been doing this. A whey protein would be an excellent supplement to bulid muscle tissue, but it can be expensive.

Fact: To gain weight you have got to consume more calories than you burn. Weight lifters usually are in to gianing weight, cyclists are not.
Nutrition and posting.Jon
Dec 4, 2001 6:33 PM
Your remarks about stimulants affecting pain threshold but not performance are interesting. I
read some research some time back that indicated that although amphetamines reduced perceived
rate of exertion(probably due to their mood elevating effects) the actual, tested ergogenic effects
were negative. Seems like the benefit of higher heartrate is offset by peripheral vascular constriction.
Which, by the way, then increases risk of stroke or aneurysm. The net effect is a slight diminishment
in actual oxygen delivery to the working muscle cells.
Stimulantsallervite
Dec 11, 2001 11:35 AM
When I first started racing a guy recommended a product to me containing Ephedrine. It was not illegal at the time, and I was young and not educated so I tried them during a local unofficial training race. I hated the way it made me feel. My heart was racing and I felt like throwing up. I was riding with Cat 3's 2's and even a 1. I was a cat 5. I felt great on the bike. When we hit the first real climb of about two miles I was in the front group. I had done this before, but always got dropped at the base when the climbers came forward. Not this day. 3/4's the way up the hill I was with the lead Climbers. My heart rate was above my normal Maximum of 202; my respritory rate was through the roof. I was suffering, but I did not feel that bad. As a matter of fact, I attacked them. The best climber in the group blew by me, and a few others caught me, but they were plainly suffering like dogs.
I was an expert class MTB racer so I had some fitness, but all of a sudden and I mean immediately I blew up like I have never blown before. My body completely shut down and I almost did not make the 20 mile ride back home. I even slept beside the road on the way. I also developed heart palpatations that went away after a month of rest. The whole experience scared me good. I though I had done permanant damage to my heart. Also, I realised stimulants are no good for racing because they screw up your perceived exertion and cause your metabolism to race and burn up valuable energy. As you know this is very counterproductive in an endurance event.
StimulantsJon
Dec 13, 2001 9:21 AM
Your story should be published far and wide! Might save some lives. Thanks for
sharing.