|Land grab and such||Woof the dog|
Dec 28, 2003 2:19 PM
|What strikes me kind of odd is all that land grab going on in Middle east. Why do Jews have to define themselves by the place where they are from? Jezus!!! It is just a piece of land, get over it. Similar thing with how Islam is often interpreted - an epic battle of a muslim against a christian/jew.
I have no respect for such separatist attitudes. It is simply not right and not fair not recognizing others as equal. There is enough inequality in nature (talk about genetically gifted cyclists heh), why all these mind-boggling philosophies and traditions?
Maybe both the Old and the new testaments of the Bible as well as the Koran should be EDITED. Sadly that is not possible.
Woof the god... i mean dog.
|re: Land grab and such||purplepaul|
Dec 28, 2003 3:32 PM
|- "Why do Jews have to define themselves by the place where they are from?" -
Is that different from the Palestinians (right of return)?
- "It is just a piece of land, get over it." -
Are you referring to Jews or Palestinians?
- "Similar thing with how Islam is often interpreted - an epic battle of a muslim against a christian/jew."-
Before 9/11, I didn't know the difference between Islam and Muslim. Seems to me the interpretation of muslims against the world is a muslim thing. I doubt most westerners gave Muslims much thought at all. Hardly the making of a crusade.
Now, however, it's a different story. The only exposure Islam gets now is incredibly negative. And why not? Poll after poll reveals a deep hatred of western thought and the US in particular. Muslim leaders, almost without exception, lead their people into poverty, hatred and a desire for the enlightenment of 1000 years ago. Not exactly good preparation for competing in the world today.
And, instead of addressing these problems, Muslims target America.
It's illegal in many Muslim countries to believe in another religion (in that respect, they're hundreds of years behind Christianity). Women are half human. Strange how those in this country who scream about how our language keeps women down are deadly silent about the treament of women under Islam.
Israel, however, gives full rights to its citizens. There are Arab citizens voted into office. Try getting a Jew into office in any Muslim country. Oh, wait, most Muslim countries expelled or killed Jews. So much for freedom.
So, to address your original point, Jews have been persecuted for thousands and thousands of years. They've been violently forced out from their homes so often that they actually have a word for it. They've been rounded up and stoned, shot, hung, gassed and humiliated while their possessions have been appropriated by their murderers. When they could see that their lives were in danger, they tried to go to safe countries, only to be sent back to die.
Now, given their tiny numbers, how hated they are, how many enemies they have and so few friends, does it really not make sense as to why their country is so important to them?
|Actually, as far as the settlements go, it's about economics.||sn69|
Dec 28, 2003 7:54 PM
|Speaking as an American Jew, Woof, I share the same view as many others that I know. Israel is a nation with very high inflation and a high cost of living. The vast majority of settlers are from various denominations that border on the extreme (remember, Judaism has many denominations). Like many other extremist religious groups, there are irrational issues of piety that cloud judgement and sound thought, and, perhaps more compellingly, there is a resulting tendancy towards a lower socio-economic status. The lands "made available" in the West Bank and Gaza are at a substantially reduced price, thus, the lower class Jewish citizenry, many if not most of whom gravitate towards the more fringe denominations of the religion, find ample irrational justification to move there under the auspices of religious birthright. The real reason, however, is money. It's cheaper to live there, and if you're a Lubovitch with 10 children and single-source income, you can only afford so much.
Money, money and "my God is better than your God" ruin everything in the end. If you're stronger and you can rationalize your desire for somebody else's land, you take it; just ask the Indians.
That said, there are a great many American and European Jews who harbor great antipathy if not outright enmity for the continued persecution of the Palestinian people. You're reading the words of one. Still, there are also a great many Palestinians who harbor nothing but hatred loosly veiled as nationalism. ...Just ask Arafat--he's become a multi-millionaire championing his so-called cause (read: bankrolling terrorism) while people like Edward Said quietly speak for the true cause of human rights, equally condeming the immoral actions of the Israeli government as well as the five decades of extremist terrorism.
And yes, there's even a growing leftist movement within Israel calling for equal rights and equitable land distribution. But their efforts are undermined within every time Arafat's cronies convince some irrationally passionate child to blow him/herself up in a public forum, and the Israeli Rightists react by bulldozing a Palestinian neighborhood. It's a cycle of tragedy that feeds upon itself.
And then there's the X-factor (the undervalued variable rather than the sh!t-a@@ X-Men spinoff): the House of Saud, Syria and many other regional governments continue to bankroll Arafat and his various terrorist incarnations in order to continue to provide a communal cathartic scapegoat in order to distract their own populations from their abhorrent human rights abuses. Sadly, the Israeli government play right into their hands. ...And the cycle continues.....
Finally, I am a Jew. I do, in fact, define myself from the place that I'm from. Don't like it? Tough sh!t. I'm an American--that IS where I'm from, it's where my parents are from, where my grandparents were from and so on. It defines who I am.
Dec 29, 2003 7:13 AM
|You bring up some great points about who the settlers are, and how fringe groups operate in any society, including the US.
It is interesting that you cite the high cost of living in Israel, here is what I find startling: Every single time I hear a settler on a radio interview I hear an unmistakable accent, Brooklyn. I was born and raised in the Bronx, so no amount of time spent living in Israel can disguise a Brooklyn accent from my ears. I believe that the high cost of living in New York has a lot to do with the motivation of settlers.
I too, define myself by where I am from. Go Yankees!
|I also define myself as:||Noam|
Dec 29, 2003 8:50 AM
|a Jew and a Israeli. Born in Jerusalem and this is my land.
|What made it yours?||TJeanloz|
Dec 29, 2003 10:29 AM
|I was born in Massachusetts, but I don't feel any particular possession of the land where I was born. I like it here, but it isn't "mine all mine".|
|What made it yours?||Woof the dog|
Dec 29, 2003 11:16 AM
|What made it yours?||Noam|
Dec 29, 2003 6:43 PM
|I spilled blood to protect it.|
|So did the Palestinians, no? (nm)||TJeanloz|
Dec 30, 2003 6:25 AM
|Is it theirs, on account of some spilled blood?|
|Ah, the mystery of Citizenship!||53T|
Dec 30, 2003 7:03 AM
|Do we belong to the land, or does it belong to us? Or both?
In reality we choose or nations in a somewhat arbitrary fashion, accident of birth, or a purely emotional decision later in life. Once we humans choose, however, we tend to defend or nation relentlessly. Truly we "identify" and "define" ourselves based on our "nationality". In the greater scheme of things, it is a little strange that something as arbitrary as a "nation" could be so important to us. Were not nations themselves a rather recent creation of mankind?
Perhaps we envision our nation as a club of people all dedicated to a common set of important principles. Surely that is worth defending and and nurturing? If we stop and examine the most important principles to which we subscribe, we might find that there are many others outside our nation that share these principles, sometimes even our historical enemies.
War often results from differences in trivial pseudo-principles such as economic injustice, natural resource imbalance, or in the case of Afganistan, poor judgement in choosing friends.
Other times war is caused by a natural balancing of power between a coalition of less powerful states against a threatening hegemone.
In the case if Isreal, war results from the adoption of a trivial "principle" that calls for the eradication of Jews worldwide. In the end (in the not too distant future) it will be the folks calling for the extinction of Jews that will be driven away, rather then the "Jews driven into the sea". We would like to believe that this will be caused by the triumph of enlightened thinking over barbarism, but that may not be the case. The timing of the world-wide war on terror, waged by the current hegemone (us) and the state of relations between Isreal and the US will conspire to ensure the survival of the Jewish people, and the Jewish state for the forseeable future.
There are those amoung us, myself included, who look forward to the next battle, when states based on religious foundataions such as Isreal, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the others will foresake the supernatural and be reformed into liberal democracies. This will be the next great move toward international cooperation and peace.
|Ah, the mystery of Citizenship!||Woof the dog|
Dec 30, 2003 10:37 AM
|Good info. But regarding trivial principle of eradicating jews worldwide... that apparently exists but I just find it silly and no reasonable educated person can possibly believe in that idea.
|Ah, the mystery of Citizenship!||53T|
Dec 30, 2003 10:46 AM
|Reasonably educated people are the minority, worldwide.|
|So did the Palestinians, no? (nm)||Noam|
Dec 30, 2003 7:20 AM
|Do you want me to admit on this forum that I killed Palestinians?. Pick your choice.|
|I don't care,||TJeanloz|
Dec 30, 2003 7:28 AM
|It doesn't matter to me whether or not you killed Palestinians. I just find it interesting that your claim to the land is based on the fact that you shed blood for it, while you deny that others, who have paid the same price in blood, would have equal claim to the same land.
I'm just curious about what it is that makes people feel entitled to a bit of land. And this curiosity expands far beyond the middle east - it's a rather universal question that I don't know the answer to.
|re: Land grab and such||Duane Gran|
Dec 30, 2003 8:56 AM
|Generally I agree. Besides, every film or picture I have seen of the middle east makes it look awful. I have never seen so much as a blade of grass growing on the ground. I'm sure there are exceptions, but it looks like a dust bowl of poverty to me.
Rather than bellyaching about the land of one's ancestor's why don't they pick up and go somewhere sensible? It is easier said than done, but how bad does is have to get before people see the bigger picture and realize they are fighting over a sandbox?
|Munich is nice. (nm)||53T|
Dec 30, 2003 10:35 AM
|Undoubtedly safer than Israel (nm)||TJeanloz|
Dec 30, 2003 12:48 PM
|Uganda was the offer||Noam|
Dec 30, 2003 6:08 PM
|In fact Uganda was proposed as Jewish homeland by the Brittish colonial power. We would be a minority in this country now with all the follows. Israel is our home. On theother hand, I do not deny the Palestinians a home in the middle east.|
|Undoubtedly safer than Israel (nm)||Noam|
Dec 30, 2003 6:11 PM
|Back to live with the people that killed half of out people.|| |