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Ok, looks like I was wrong. Will I be wronger?(8 posts)

Ok, looks like I was wrong. Will I be wronger?dr hoo
Dec 16, 2003 3:51 AM
I still don't admit that Saddam was running things day to day, but the documents found seem to be having an effect far larger than I thought.

Specifically, it looks like documents were found that led to the capture of several high ranking Saddam loyalists. They seem to have documents/be talking and that is a wealth of intellience for the US forces. THEIR capture is likely to take down a big chunk of Saddam's remaining organization.

I don't mind being wrong, especially when it gives me a chance to be wronger down the line. I propose a test. 6 months from now, if the attacks in Iraq have fallen off, then I will say I had the read on this situation of the source of attacks was totally wrong, and that Saddam's capture was a VERY BIG THING.

But if attacks are steady or higher in 6 months, those who thought this was a VERY BIG thing need to admit their error as well.

Funny, but months ago when I heard about them looking for a "bodyguard" I laughed. What could HE know? Who would think HE could be part of the loop? Of course now we know that Saddam still had his low level people driving him around! Fool.

I know some of you will be very happy to read this post. Enjoy it, I ain't wrong often! (It helps that I say "if" a lot.)

Hmmmmmm, spider hole.... shelob..... is there a connection? Is it media manipulation? Nahhhhh, that's just silly!
Unconfirmed reports ...HouseMoney
Dec 16, 2003 6:36 AM
Izzat Ibrahim al-Douri, the King of Clubs and #6 in the deck of cards, was taken into custody. According to some accounts, he was the leader of the insurgency. Last week, one of his wives, a daughter, and his secretary were taken into custody, so maybe they (in addition to possibly Saddam) provided info as to his whereabouts.

The dominos they be a fallin'! (hopefully ... unconfirmed reports have a habit of not panning out)

hmmm, 6 months from now? I'll have to mark that date down in my calendar!
The date coincides with the proposed ....Live Steam
Dec 16, 2003 7:04 AM
exchange of command from US forces to the new Iraqi government. I wouldn't bet. It will almost be a certainty that violence will carry the day. More than likely the violence will be initiated by outside efforts of Al-Queda and other extreme Islamic groups in an attempt to disrupt a smooth transition.

Heck, I know Bush has supported the Saudis throughout all this, but I would bet they have a hand in the attempted destabilization of the new Iraqi government. It obviously isn't in their better interests if their neighbor is able to achieve a truly successful democratic society. I am not sure why Bush isn't tough on them. Maybe he is privately, but doesn't push it publicly because he doesn't want to destabilize our source of oil. Then once Iraq is able to produce more, he can tell the Saudis where to get off if they don't stop supporting terrorist actions against western interests.
The date coincides with the proposed ....Jon Billheimer
Dec 16, 2003 9:36 AM
Steam, you raise a pretty good point. An International Studies prof at the U of A wrote a column in today's Edm. Journal and in it listed off the various organizations that are contributing to the insurgency in Iraq. Presumably there are Saudis, proxy-Al-Qaeda jihadists and several other organizations active in Iraq as well as the Baathists and their sympathizers. IMO, this situation makes the WWI Balkans look unified and simplistic.

Another observation, listening and watching reaction from around the Arab world, it appears that most Arabs hate the U.S. and the West in general far more than they hate their own homegrown despots and the poverty and suffering that these jerks inflict on them. So I think the American neocon assumption that Iraqis and other Arabs yearn for "freedom" is a naive projection. In their xenophobic hatred I believe that despite all else Arab societies will continue to seek their own violence-ridden, tribalistic lowest common denominators. (BTW, in case you don't get the point, this is NOT an anti-American comment. Just what I believe to be a reality-based observation!)
Probably one of the ......Live Steam
Dec 16, 2003 11:55 AM
least anti-American posts I can recall from you :O) I'm not naive about the hatred. Your points are duly noted. However one needs to look into the reasons behind that hatred. It's my contention that they are pretty much programmed to hate us in order to deflect attention away from the true reasons why they live in poverty. This implanted deception veils the culprits true identities. I believe that people have an innate desire to control their own destiny. However, sometimes it is difficult to rise above those that would keep you down. Maybe we greased the skids a little. Perhaps the Iraqi people will show the way to the rest of the Arab nations.
Probably one of the ......Jon Billheimer
Dec 16, 2003 12:07 PM
Well, "hope springs eternal" but I sincerely doubt it. Right now they're behaving just like all the other Arab nations. You're absolutely right, they are programmed to hate an external enemy in order to deflect attention from their own governments' corruption and their own desperate poverty. And that isn't going to change any time soon.

P.S. I'm not anti-American. I'm anti-neocon foreign policy and anti-George Bush unilateralism, both of which I view as an outright betrayal of the ideals America has traditionally said it stands for. You guys on the extreme right seem hypnotized by the "you're for us or against us" red herring logic. This is simply a way to enforce social and political conformity, a most un-American tactic. Oh...oops, I forgot the '50s!
Probably one of the ......Live Steam
Dec 16, 2003 1:10 PM
First I think the Middle East is ripe for change and I believe extreme Islam see this too. This is the reason for their desperation. The same goes for the Royal families. The advent of the Internet has revealed a lot more to these suppressed people than they would normally have access to. It's human nature to desire better circumstances. Democracy flourishes in Turkey and Egypt. It can and will in most of the other Arab nations too. The more highly educated countries will succumb to it first.

I believe a lot has changed since 9/11. I don't see the unilateralism you do. I see many countries that support what is being done. I also see certain other countries allowing their self interests to come before that of the alliances they vowed to protect. That's what I see. I don't see American values being compromised. I see American values being spread to other people and embracing it. I see a President who isn't making choices because of the temperature of the day, but making them because he believes they are the correct things to do.

I'm not hypnotized. And, from where I stand, those on the extreme left drew the line in the sand with their lunatic rantings of similarities to Nazi Germany. No one is looking for social and political conformity unless you are refering to those on your side of the aisle. From where I sit, they are the ones looking to keep the status quo.
it may not be freedom they desire...rufus
Dec 16, 2003 8:37 PM
they just want to be the ones doing the repressing. sunnis, shiites, kurds, etc.