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Would you feel like a hypocrite if...(36 posts)

Would you feel like a hypocrite if...Dwayne Barry
Dec 9, 2003 6:13 AM
you had a disease (most diabetes, heart diseases and high blood pressure conditions) that was largely treatable through moderate exercise and diet modifications calling on the government to make sure you can get your drugs cheaper to treat the condition? Or should people be entitled to take a pill at less than market value or paid for by their fellow citizens when they could just take a walk and not have fried chicken and cake for dinner?
I think you're oversimplifying it,TJeanloz
Dec 9, 2003 6:52 AM
I don't think many diseases are completely controllable by diet and exercise alone. Very few diabetics can completely control their blood sugar levels solely with diet and exercise. Typically it's diet, exercise, and glyburide - which is still cheaper than insulin 3 times a day.

But I think my answer is that I'd feel like a hypocrite if I took any government subsidy that I didn't truely need, and if I could treat my disease via diet and exercise, I would prefer that solution to a drug. Regardless of who was paying for the drug, I think I'd rather control a condition with diet and exercise.
Personal responsibility is not part of ...Live Steam
Dec 9, 2003 6:57 AM
the average American's vocabulary these days. Everyone believes they are entitled to something or that the government must look after them to protect them. The problem is the government can't protect people from themselves, and when the government pokes its' nose into some aspects of their lives like good health practices, they get indignant and say it's no ones business.

Yeah I think a lot of fat ass people should stop eating doughnuts and start walking. I also think they should take responsibility for their actions instead of blaming McDonalds for their obesity, but that's just my opinion :O)
What about corporate responsibility....Tri_Rich
Dec 9, 2003 11:11 AM
I have no choice but to breathe air polluted by industrial smokestacks, do these companies pay for the health effects they cause?
Do you not think the government should address the connection between low income and obesity?
The neo-cons love pre-emptive military campaigns but don't seem capable of fathoming the idea in a public health context.
Now this gets interesting,TJeanloz
Dec 9, 2003 11:18 AM
Now we get to the joys of society. You have no choice but to breath air polluted by smokestacks, but I have no choice but to breath air poluted by personal automobiles (which, I believe, emit far more than industrial sources, but I could be wrong).

I find it fascinating that we are the first society in the history of the world that has a negative correlation between obesity and income. Imagine, a society so successful at feeding its people that we need to regulate a diet for them...
Now this gets interesting,Tri_Rich
Dec 9, 2003 12:11 PM
I agree with you about poverty and obesity, and think it highlights a few things.

First americans on both a governemntal and individual level don't take the idea of "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" very seriously. We spend billions on health care, and very little on health maintainance.

Secondly in some way it highlights the difference in little l and little c thought. As a little l I believe society and the government need to be constantly inspected and adjusted to improve and meet the demands of the current world. A little c would say that the system is fundamentally fine as is.
You've got a narrow definition of "feed". . . .czardonic
Dec 9, 2003 12:34 PM
. . .and a broad definition of "success" going on here.
Let them eat cake!TJeanloz
Dec 9, 2003 1:02 PM
What, the inverse correlation between income and obesity doesn't indicate that, if nothing else, our poor are well fed? Sure, it's not foie gras - but PETA would be angry if it was.

I suppose its nothing to be proud of that our poor aren't starving in the gutter. We must be ashamed because we don't feed them better. And house them better. I will go back to my corner and think about how much better they do it in Europe.
But they are not "well fed". That is the point.czardonic
Dec 9, 2003 2:15 PM
You can be overweight and malnourished.

Poor people in America are exactly that, because they are a dumping ground for unhealthy byproducts of a market corrupted by subsidies and exploitative special-interests.
Better that than starving, no?TJeanloz
Dec 9, 2003 2:23 PM
Or is it an all-or-nothing proposition in your socialist utopia?

Foie gras all around!
I don't know.czardonic
Dec 9, 2003 2:35 PM
As far as I know, dead is dead.

Adjusted for population, do rates of starvation in socialist distopia Europe compare to rates of premature death due to obesity related diseases among poor people in capitalist utopia United States?
I don't think the stats are available (nm)TJeanloz
Dec 9, 2003 2:45 PM
thread drift...market value of pillsColnagoFE
Dec 9, 2003 8:17 AM
One could easily argue that pharmaceutical cos. stifling research into non-patentable cures and keeping certain in-demand drug prices artificially high is the real crime.
What would constitue a non-patentable cure?Live Steam
Dec 9, 2003 8:34 AM
Also it is not the responsibility of drug companies to promote good health practices. They are in the business of developing and making drugs.

Non-patentable cure says to me it is something along the lines of what the original poster proffered. Walk and eat a healthy diet. Anything else like drinking water while standing on your left foot could be patented.

As an aside, I know of a few people who fall into this category. They have different levels of diabetes, yet continue to drink alcohol, eat rich foods and smoke. I look at them a say to myself they are killing themselves in pretty quick fashion. I had a friend who did just that. He had juvenile diabetes and when we were teens and into our twenties and later, he drank, smoked and consumed everything he could get his hands on. Well he died three years ago at 40. His life from about 33 until the end was spent in and out of hospitals. I miss him but have difficulty feeling sorry for him. We all tried to get him to change his ways.
Going home for Thanksgiving and...Dwayne Barry
Dec 9, 2003 8:43 AM
interacting with my family and friends there, reminded me of the almost extreme aversion many people have to exercise, and that most people give absolutely no thought to what they are eating. When my wife and I told some relatives that we were going to a local park for hike they were literally befuddled. That couldn't understand why anyone would want to do this!
An interesting observationLive Steam
Dec 9, 2003 9:05 AM
Back in '85 I did a Summer semester of college in Venice, Italy. There were 30 US students participating in this special program for Architecture. It was easy to recognize the American students from the rest of the student body from their physical stature. We were more bulky and muscular. The Europeans had a more lean build with less pronounced muscle mass. Even when traveling there more recently, I was able to discern the differences between Americans and Europeans based on physical appearance, though it did seem to be less pronounced than it was 20 years ago. Maybe it's a sign that things have changed there too.

In Europe the lifestyle is very different. Everyone walks and rides a bike to the store or to some daily destination. We here in the US don't generally think of doing that. Admittedly our lifestyles are different. We live in expanded communities where as the Euros generally live and work in a smaller geographic range.

I think I'm going out for a walk :O)
and their looks reflect itColnagoFE
Dec 9, 2003 9:43 AM
Everytime I go visit my father in Iowa I am reminded of what not exercising and eating large amounts of fried foods and cheese does to a person. A typical salad out there consists of iceberg lettuce and about a cup of full-fat ranch dressing. Everything is fried and drenched in melted jack cheese. OK...I exeggerate, but not by much. And the size of some of the people there is just amazing. 300+ pounds is the norm--not the exception. And some even seem proud of it! One guy who always comes into my dad's store always is patting his big belly and saying "It's all bought and paid for!" as if it was something to be proud of.
300+ lbs is NOT the norm in Iowa.dr hoo
Dec 9, 2003 2:02 PM
Though it is not as unusual to see a 300+ pound person in the midwest than in, say, Los Angeles. In fact, Iowa is about in the middle in terms of percent overweight and percent obese of the population.

National
overweight = 36% obese = 18%

Iowa
Overweight = 36% obese = 19%

Just fyi. They do like their jack cheese and fried chicken. And Iowa Pork chops too! (1 1/2 inch thick porterhouse cut, for the uninformed). No one who has ever ridden RAGBRAI can doubt that after hearing the call of "Pooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrk Chooooooooooooop!" at 7am.
Missouri is fatter than that!Dale Brigham
Dec 9, 2003 2:41 PM
Step aside, Iowa, you skinny old thing. Missouri is barging through!

From my Department's website: "More than one in five Missouri adults (22 percent) are considered to be obese, and more than half (56 percent) are overweight. Missouri ranks ninth in the nation for prevalence of obesity."

Dale
of course I stretched it a bitColnagoFE
Dec 9, 2003 3:04 PM
But the weight contrast between Boulder, CO and Northwest Iowa is dramatic. I imagine it would be greater if I travelled to some of our fat....ahem...I mean fair Southern states.
DiabetesTJeanloz
Dec 9, 2003 8:55 AM
Steam, your friend who had juvenile diabetes wasn't causing any additional damage by drinking, smoking, and eating rich foods [i.e. the diabetes wouldn't cause those activities to be any worse than they would for an otherwise healthy person]. Someone with juvenile diabetes would be treated by insulin injection, and could eat all the sugar they wanted to without negative effect. It's people with Type II [often "adult onset diabetes"] who must avoid sugary foods and alcohol, lest they become Type I diabetics. I'm not saying diabetes didn't lead to his demise - but on a regular treatment program, his lifestyle need not have been impacted by juvenile diabetes.
Well I am sure you're right :O)Live Steam
Dec 9, 2003 9:13 AM
The doctors did say he needed to change his ways. I know he wasn't diligent with his insulin regimen and they didn't want him drinking that was for sure.

As for type II sufferers, I know a few of them with deplorable eating habits. The mother of my wife's best friend is a type II sufferer. She is the worst offender. Casual drinking, desserts, and not eating on a regular schedule are her worst offenses. Her kidneys are starting to be effected by her errant ways. I don't think she will last much longer if she continues along the same path.
Are you sure...Dwayne Barry
Dec 9, 2003 9:32 AM
I seem to remember my friends with childhood diabetes being pretty careful about what they ate? Elevated blood sugar levels, I believe are the cause of many complications associated with diabetes. I would think loading the system with sugar, even if you're taking regular insulin shots would not be a good thing to do if you lack the bodies natural ability to keep blood sugar levels in check.
Quite sure,TJeanloz
Dec 9, 2003 9:37 AM
It depends on your level of competence in managing your blood glucose, but somebody who knows what they're doing can easily moderate the amount of insulin they inject depending upon what they eat/how they feel.
Does that include compensating for about ...Live Steam
Dec 9, 2003 10:29 AM
a case of beer in one day? Yup, he did that often when we we out in the Hamptons at the beach. He could easily have downed a case throughout the day, even on Sunday :O)
maybe he died of liver failure instead of diabetes (nm)ColnagoFE
Dec 9, 2003 11:22 AM
Actually he ...Live Steam
Dec 9, 2003 11:34 AM
died from complication of issues. His liver and kidneys failed. The diabetes caused damage to his organs. Did his lifestyle contribute to a hastening of the degeneration? Probably.
non-patentableColnagoFE
Dec 9, 2003 9:38 AM
ie..derived from natural and non lab-made sources. In other words...there might be some great plant out in the rainforest that has the potential to treat AIDS or Cancer, but unless it can be synthesized it is hard to patent as it is considered "natural" and not created by the lab. There just isn't a huge profit potential in it for the pharm. companies.
But what if you crash your bike? Do I have to pay?Cory
Dec 9, 2003 8:53 AM
In the abstract, that's easy to answer: of course nobody should have to pay for things you inflict on yourself. Smokers should just die of lung cancer or heart disease, overweight people can croak from diabetes--their illness isn't MY fault.
Where do you stop, though? If I crash my bike and need surgery, should my insurance company pay? I could have gotten the same exercise much more safely by riding a stationary bike in a gym, or running in place. It was MY choice to take a flimsy, two-wheeled vehicle onto the road.
Strawman argument, Cory?Live Steam
Dec 9, 2003 9:18 AM
You see these activities as being equal? Obesity and cycling have the same risk factors? That is a pretty disingenuous argument to make.
Strawman argument, Cory?bill105
Dec 9, 2003 9:21 AM
there is no black and white to the liberal. just shades of gray.
Just checked the NASDAQ, your stock is sinking fast128
Dec 9, 2003 10:09 AM
Turns out, your immature and incessant 'party baiting' is considered non-productve by both managment and rank and file. The Board wonders if your attitude properly exemplifies the "conservative demeanor" expected of it's members and if you will be a "poor influence on morale". A minutes leak indicated there were certain members whose "tag team antics and hillary-ous hijynx" were considered "below the standards of sophistication and debate" expected of Board members.

However, the Board acknoweldges your efforts to see the black and the white distinctively, but encourages you to try to come in colors.
Just checked the NASDAQ, your stock is sinking fastbill105
Dec 11, 2003 7:39 AM
Turns out the 1st, 2nd and 4th post referred to the government or neo cons which at that point injected political overtones into the conversation. If you dont like it I can instruct you on how to shut down your computer.
More on the straw man--just talked to my agent.Cory
Dec 9, 2003 4:53 PM
Called my insurance guy to see if I remembered that correctly. No firm rules at his company, he said, but if I'm a "professional cyclist" (fat chance) or a serious amateur, I'd be better off keeping it to myself. If somebody happens to notice that I ride 4000 miles a year or whatever, they could call it a hazardous hobby and raise my rates. If I crash now, I should say only that I was "riding my bike," not that I was training or getting ready for a century or anything incriminating like that. And I'll probably be dropped.
Same thing happened when I had a race car (he can't insure racers at all anymore), and he said skydivers and scuba divers can expect it, too.
You miss the point...Dwayne Barry
Dec 9, 2003 9:24 AM
if I have insurance then they pay for my injury if I wreck my bike. If the insurance company deems cycling dangerous enough, they up my rates, and I can either stop cycling, pay the increased rates or go to another company.

The issue is whether a pill is a right when an alternative less costly option exists. For example should medicaid (or medicare) be able to tell a 65 year-old with the beginnings of adult onset diabetes you need to exercise and eat right, heres how to do it. And then if they don't comply make them pay for the pill to treat the disease themselves rather than you or I picking up the tab.
Not straw at all--it's been proposedCory
Dec 9, 2003 1:06 PM
Man, I envy the certainty of conservatives. You guys are so lucky to realize that there are never nuances or shades, that things are either black or white....
As for the cycling-as-hazard idea, though, though, that actually came up a couple of years ago in California. An insurance company--State Farm, I think, but I'm not sure--declared it a "hazardous activity," like parachuting or scuba diving, and was going to charge a premium if you did it. It was discussed here, but I don't know if the archives go back that far.
Additionally, The Board has noted that neither of you addressed the question, but merely ridiculed the idea.