Aug 25, 2003 11:48 AM
|I am posting this as a fleeting thought I had this morning and also I am tired of discussing politics because I really dont like what I am reading about in the paper today. So this is nothing serious and a broad assessment of how some people see life.
How come I can go meet a single,beautiful, smart and well balanced woman who does anything for an occupation: she is a teacher or is a mechanic or a pilot or works with heavy machines and none of it would make a difference to me. I mean, provided it was something practical, something she chose etc etc. I would not think twice about it. Unless...you know she hauled dead fish, you know I might invest in some soap and smelly candles and cover my car seats when I picked her up from work or something. But I would be interested in her, attracted to her just the same. I wouldnt think she was after me for my money or just plain lonely or whatever the hell else. But, women seem to hold alot of weight on what men do for work. Not that it makes a difference. Most guys I know who look like they are well off have debt up to their eye balls. However, it seems to me women judge men alot more. In fact during relationships I think they continue to judge in most cases. I have never heard a guy friend of mine say " I think I am going to have to sit down with Emily and see what her plan is for the next 6-12 months before this goes any further " But I listen to my girl-friends say shiat like that all the time. Women go through phases and different "spaces" in their lives as do men. I just think women perhaps tend to remember/keep track of them better. Am I being unfair? I know there are all kinds of poeple out there as this board has shown, but just humor me
|re: women.....||Jon Billheimer|
Aug 25, 2003 11:56 AM
|In my life experience, which is admittedly probably pretty narrow and generation-dated, egalitarianism is invoked in sexual politics only when it benefits women. The argument sometimes is advanced that this is only natural since women historically are the power disadvantaged gender. However, I think in a number of ways the opposite actually obtains, especially in the area of relationships. In my opinion women are the controllers in most man/woman relationships and as such are generally looking for men who can potentially enhance either their status or security, whereas men in general are looking for either sex or companionship or a combination of both.|
|re: women.....||Duane Gran|
Aug 25, 2003 12:23 PM
|Interesting observation. I wouldn't fault anyone (male or female) for considering a person's occupation when thinking long term. Although it sounds nice, you need more than love to make a relationship work. If one person wants a higher standard of living it can make things very tense, so picking a partner who at least matches your expectations is prudent.
I've heard that women earn less than men for comparable work, so possibly this issue comes up out of necessity? I honestly don't know.
You do bring up a good point about a person's debt to income ratio. Someone who spends it all will forever be working poor. I doubt most women who inquire about income potential consider this. The author of "The Millionaire Mind" (good book, just finished it) has some interesting things to say about the topic.
|Money has replaced genetics||filtersweep|
Aug 25, 2003 12:53 PM
|it is biological. They don't need to find the "strongest male" since financial strength has supplanted physical strength in terms of ability to survive.
My simple advice is to find a younger woman- like about 8 years younger, and perhaps foreign born. Not only do they look much better, but their idea of wealth is relative ;)
|get a young, good looking Eastern European. Besides...||Bruno S|
Aug 25, 2003 9:26 PM
|they don't mind doing house chores and can't really tell the difference between a Lexus and a Pontiac :-)|
|you'd be surprised...||loki_1|
Aug 26, 2003 8:46 AM
|at how quickly they learn to tell the difference.
I went with the foreign born but 2 years older (she made more money than me at the time ;)
Seriously though, it all comes down to finding someone with the same expectations and goals in life. As with anything it becomes a balancing act. As an example, my wife put her career on hold for a few years to be home with our kids. This was something that we discussed and planned out before we got married. It was more important, to us, for her to be able to stay home than have the perks her career afforded us.
Communication is important... like others have said, the people you are meeting may not be golddiggers but just want to see if you have matching goals and expectations. (If you don't, it makes it easier for both of you to walk away amicably).
|That was a Seifeld episode...||mohair_chair|
Aug 25, 2003 1:07 PM
|Jerry's girlfriend is breaking up with him after seeing his standup act:
Her: I just can't be with someone if I don't respect what they do.
Him: But you're a cashier!
|But, wasn't he dating her in spite of her personality? (nm)||czardonic|
Aug 25, 2003 1:11 PM
|as a woman...||CritLover|
Aug 25, 2003 6:55 PM
|I don't generally care how much a man makes, although I find that employment can sometimes reflect more about a person than their long term finances. For example, I would be turned off to dating a stock broker. Not to say I would never do it, but I find finance to be very dry and would make an assumption that the indiviual may be the same. Now obviously this wouldn't be a hard and fast rule, but it's a consideration.
Another woman might feel the same about construction workers, though that may not be a bad thing for me. Don't assume that it is always about the money. But for what it's worth, when it is about the money, I think it is a kind of biological response. Many women do have children on their mind, so looking for the best bread winner is necessary. (the rest may be gold diggers- I couldn't say)
However, if you think that it is the most important qualification for many females, than you must date women very different than those I've know. Don't forget, the potential partners we choose/are attracted to, are only reflections of ourselves. So the question becomes, what is it about you that the women you pick are preoccupied with employment?
|Excellent response. nm||Kristin|
Aug 26, 2003 6:35 AM
|Its not about status, its about ambition and potential||Kristin|
Aug 26, 2003 6:32 AM
|Somehow I doubt that you would ever date a woman who worked at a fish plant, or who makes Whoppers at the local Burger King. I get the impression from you posts that you are an educated, well-informed, intelligent, sucessful man. Being so, you seek out women who are also intelligent, informed and upwardly motivated. Quite honestly, not the type of woman you will find in a fish processing plant. Not impossible, perhaps, but very unlikely. If you are dating an intelligent, informed, upwardly motivated woman, she will want to know where you plan to go in life. She wants to know that you and she are heading in compatable directions. She wants assurance that you will continue to be what you are today. She may fear marrying someone who would turn into a fat, lazy slob after the, "I do's," have been said.
Personally, I doubt I would ever date a guy who worked at a fast food chain or in a fish farm. My experience is that most men my age who hold such jobs are either unambitious, uneducated, unintelligent, or uncultured. That makes them incompatable with me. There are exceptions, of course. If I met someone who was ambitious, intelligent and motivated who just happened to work at a fish plant for some bizarre reason--I'd date him. Provided he showered regularly and I was attracted to him. But its unlikely I'd ever meet such a man.
|Unlikely? Not too many fish plants in Chicago? ;-) nm||rwbadley|
Aug 26, 2003 6:50 AM
|Drat! There went my chances....||mohair_chair|
Aug 26, 2003 6:57 AM
|Looks like fish tonight.
Where can an unambitious, unintelligent and unmotivated guy who works at the fish plant find a girl to love?
|except for the fish plant you just described the president ;) nm||ColnagoFE|
Aug 26, 2003 7:25 AM
|I'm convinced.........your right !||CARBON110|
Aug 26, 2003 7:16 AM
|As much as a ""young Euro"" is entertaining ( thanks guys lol )you all should take notice it was two women who came up with a response that makes perfect sense. The above is a clear demostration that strikes at the heart of our ignorance we fellas possess :D
I used to think it was impossible for women to spend as much time thinking about men as we think about women. But I bet they think about us in a VERY VERY different way. Taking statistics on why relationships fail so much and just conversing with friends, men seem to think about things like: Sex,how to get what they need accomplished,Why is she mad, I said this or that, what is she thinking about now (lol),Sex, I don't want to be doing this I want to go ride my bike, what do you mean I don't court you, I got you flowers last week (LOL) Sex,what am I doing this afternoon and what is she doing, hmmmm can I buy a new bike before her birthday....
Women must think about: Sex, why would he say that? Why would he do that? What the Hell is he thinking? I better remind him to do this or that, he better not buy that bike before my birthday, what are we doing next weekend, whats wrong with him?
This is of course a satire ....hope someone found it funny :D
|ha! my wife thinks all bikes look alike||ColnagoFE|
Aug 26, 2003 8:00 AM
|I just cringe when she can't immediately tell the difference between a limited edition C-40 with full Record and CF bits to a 10 year old low end Trek with 105. When I tell her how much the C-40 goes for she can't imagine why someone would want to pay that because it looks just like any other bike to her. She tolerates my cycling hobby well though. She recently completed her first triathlon. Talk about an expensive hobby! Basically take what you spend on cycling and triple it.|
|How can Tris be more $$ the racing bikes?||CARBON110|
Aug 26, 2003 8:33 AM
|All you need is: some comfortable shoes, a cap, some speedos and aero bars! Thats only like $350 LOL...maybe I should get into Tris....naaaah racing is much more exciting :D
|No shoes for your triathlete? nm||Kristin|
Aug 26, 2003 9:07 AM
|How can Tris be more $$ the racing bikes?||Tri_Rich|
Aug 26, 2003 9:33 AM
|Aren't you in Asheville? I'm racing a tri there on Sat., Biltmore Lake Sprint. You can still sign up.|
|How can Tris be more $$ the racing bikes?||CARBON110|
Aug 26, 2003 10:08 AM
|What time does it start? I would not mind racing a tri but I was told 2 weeks ago by my DOC. that I can forget about any sport that invloves running except for cyclocross. He specifically said, due to my accident running is very bad for my ankle and leg. This really upsets me since I love soccer but at least my leg never hurts when I ride my bike no matter what the terrain or grade of hill. Funny thing is it hurts when I dont ride. I am hoping though that this ""no running "" will change in about 12-18 months and I can enjoy some cross training in the winter time. I just started lifting weights at the gym again. Otherwise a tri sounds like alot of fun and I would welcome the TT part.|
|How can Tris be more $$ the racing bikes?||Tri_Rich|
Aug 26, 2003 10:41 AM
|Sorry to hear you can't run.
Here's the site for the race though;
Click on the Biltmore Lake Triathlon Lake
Aug 27, 2003 5:11 AM
|If she can't appreciate the difference between a C40 and a Huffy, tell her you can't tell the difference between a piece of glass and a diamond.
|good idea! (nm)||ColnagoFE|
Aug 27, 2003 10:50 AM
Aug 26, 2003 10:19 AM
|"She wants assurance that you will continue to be what you are today."
That's what scares guys. Guys want the freedom to change. Guys need to change, new challenges, avoid stagnation.
I'm not saying they want to change from a saint to a sinner, but rather change career, look, location, etc. Good women understand this and show faith that change can be good.
If you always continue to be what you are today, you never grow. When men hear that a women don't want them to change, they might take it as saying "This is as good as you'll ever be, just try not to get any worse."
|I just meant that she...we...||Kristin|
Aug 26, 2003 11:45 AM
|want to know you aren't going to quit your job and sit around the house in your underwear all day drinking beer after we marry you. Of course change is important. Motivated people change. But they change for the better...hopefully.|
|Oh so you DO want us to change,||TJeanloz|
Aug 26, 2003 11:54 AM
|What you don't realize is that we do sit around the house all day in our underwear and drink beer, or, at least, we would if we could. We just know better than to expose this element of our lifestyle before we get married.
I mean, what guy doesn't hide the Playstation2 when he has a girl coming over?
|similar scenario for men||Starliner|
Aug 26, 2003 12:51 PM
|That's in line with us men not wanting our slim bride to let herself go to pot and grow large while sitting on her derriere watching soaps while we're busy working at a job where our efforts, if not always underappreciated, are always underpaid.
These are changes that we all have control over - i.e. fat guts/butts vs. normal bodies - and excuses for them are few. It's those changes which we can't always control - job layoff, job loss, etc. - which are scary. That's when you find out if your partner considers you as either a human being or just a paycheck.
And if a man finds out that he's the latter, chances of domestic violence will increase, but we'll always see her as the victim and him as the perpetrator, rather than considering that both parties have responsibility and blame.
|Starliner, your logic is disturbing||Kristin|
Aug 26, 2003 1:05 PM
|Your logic is way off base. When one person chooses violence towards another is is never the others blame. I'm sad that you don't understand this. The hitter is always responsible for their actions and does not "really" have a scape goat--tho many want to believe they do. I'm shocked that you even posted this.
Also, lots of things can cause a person to become overweight from illness to emotional struggles. None of which make the person less valuable or undeserving of love. Hopefully if your wife ever gains weight you will be understanding. And hopefully if you ever lose your job, she will be understanding. More than anything, hopefully neither of you ever strikes the other.
Aug 26, 2003 1:28 PM
|there is "no" excuse to resort to physical violence unless you are defending yourself from said violence.|
|Compassion does not exist on a one-way street||Starliner|
Aug 26, 2003 2:15 PM
|If physical violence results from a situation of mental cruelty, that cannot be ignored if you are truly serious about finding solutions to an issue such as domestic violence. If I understand you correctly, you disagree. You clearly have no sense for the consideration that a bruised mind would in any way lead to the bruising of another's body. You, like most of society, choose to draw the line at the bruising of the body. It's so much easier and simpler to deal with a situation when you have a clear-cut victim and a clear-cut bad guy.
But you know, that's why societies will continue to have these problems. Because we're stuck dancing to the old tunes of Good and Bad, we've become closed minded as to asking why things happen and then coming up with solutions.
Thank you for your kind words at the end, however, they are a bit late. My life experience already includes losing a job, getting poor emotional support, and eventual divorce. No violence from my side, though.
|Ahh, the Al Bundy syndrome||Leonnard|
Aug 26, 2003 5:23 PM
|Some men do have a tendency to turn into Al Bundy if they're not kept in line. I don't think a guy actually plans on turning into that type.
Here's where we can get a woman's insight.
Are there any signs women look for that might warn them that a normally ambitous guy might let himself go to hell once he gets older?
Guys usually just look at the mom to get an idea. So here's some advice for the women. If your mom is ugly, don't let the guy see her.
|But will you stay with him when times get tough||Starliner|
Aug 26, 2003 10:51 AM
|Any man will have insecurity within a relationship where he falls into the position of sole or primary breadwinner. If he loses his job, will his partner stick with him, or will she drop him and bridge on over to someone else who can get her where she wants to go more quickly? Things change, and if the relationship is built upon a materialistic foundation rather than a spiritual one, then the primary breadwinner who loses his job is in danger of being dealt an even more severe blow, one which hits him in the heart. We won't even get into the post-marital legal issues (spousal/child support) which puts a real drag on his ability to rise up from the ashes and move on.
In our ideal world, we men want to be loved for whatever it is that makes us who we truly are - those things that just can't ever be taken away from us - not for what we have, which we might not have tomorrow. A woman who can be just that way with a man will most certainly end up a very happy woman indeed.
|Obviously I can't speak for all women. But when I marry||Kristin|
Aug 26, 2003 11:53 AM
|When I marry it will be for love. And not the fairy-tale, Easy Street, effortless, shallow type either. The, "God this is difficult, sometimes I hate marraige and change really sucks, but you're more important to me than anything else in the world and I will fight with every breath to make this work," kind of love. The problem with divorce in our country has a lot to do with false expectations of marraige. Building intimacy with another person is hard work. Toil even. The only thing that would drive me out of my marraige would be some unchanged destructive behavior that was dangerous to myself or my children. Even then, the marraige wouldn't be over, but its future would be conditional.
The kind of woman you describe does exist. But she probably won't look like a podium girl.
|so now only ugly women are capable of love? LOL! (nm)||ColnagoFE|
Aug 26, 2003 1:30 PM
|So you think there are only 2 types of women: ugly & podium girls? LOL. nm||Kristin|
Aug 26, 2003 2:53 PM
|Lust vs Love||cycleguy|
Aug 27, 2003 6:07 AM
|I have come to believe that most people fall into lust. True love is a tough long term give and take. It takes the death of who you were as an individual and the rebirth of what both of you will become. Kinda like an egg.|
Aug 27, 2003 1:50 PM
|I don't think it's just a job. Just look at how many women are attracted to serial killers. Every time a guy goes out and murders a bunch of folks, women line up to be his "special" someone. I was just reading about a trial from the early 20th century where a guy killed his wife and supposedly ground up her remains into sausage. He had over 3000 women visitors to his cell - and over 80 proposals of marriage. Women are the gatekeepers to DNA -- next time you hear about a guy slicing up a family -- know that there's a herd of women out there wanting to make babies with him.|
|Olldtrott....of all the things......||CARBON110|
Aug 27, 2003 9:12 PM
|...you can say about women, this is a little creepy. Im not sure why you posted that but Im sure you have your reasons. I guess Im not sure where you were headed with that statement. It really doesnt speak for anything other then the obsurdity demonstrated by some people. But if you walk with me down 5th avenue I can show you some crazy behavior on any given day there too. As a matter of fact I can simply drive into to town and witness all kinds of crazy acts. But this thread is about women and the above really doesnt address the topic. Women being what they are, amazing I think we will all agree, its interesting to see the responses posted so far. The hardness and stoicism bestowed upon us by unrequited love experiences and the hardship of day to day life has faded the once beloved emotion and idea of youthful excuberance we all once had at one time or another. Certainly we all have had our hearts broken our been in an unreciprocal relationship, but we have at the very least experienced good romance even if it was brief or ended...not well. Whats more important is how we allow it to change our own behavior and how we relate to future relationships. Then again maybe thats just one perception. People measure life in many different ways I think is the point of what you were getting at?|
|Olldtrott....of all the things......||Oldtrott|
Aug 28, 2003 9:04 AM
|When I was recently divorced a long while back - ran a personal ad - listing a variety of interests - got a reply from a woman who I called -- and it became clear we shared none of the same interests. I was trying to figure out why she had responded, when I asked..."what kind of guy are you attracted to?" Her response was that "the kind of guy I'm attracted to is no good for me." Oddly, it is something I've begun to attend to...the "bad" boy has appeal to a lot of women -- even pathologically so. It may not be healthy, but there's something in the genes that leads a lot of women to men with deviant behavior just as men are attracted to certain physical features in women. Both aren't rationale -- but programmed in. I think we're more aware of the physical nature of male attraction than women's quest for "bad" guys.|
|dating pool after 30+||ColnagoFE|
Aug 28, 2003 10:51 AM
|i would guess the kinds of women who think this way don't often get married, or if they do it's multiple times. if you're still in the dating pool after a certain age you're more likely to find women/men like this.|| |