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Corollary to poll below: When is America's birthday?(13 posts)

Corollary to poll below: When is America's birthday?OldEdScott
Aug 22, 2003 8:12 AM
Was it 1776 (Declaration of Independence)or 1787 (adoption of the Constitution)?

Is it possible to subscribe to both?
I say neither,TJeanloz
Aug 22, 2003 9:19 AM
I give it to February 2, 1790, the day the Government designed by the Constitution became fully operational - i.e. had a President, legislators, and judges.

July 4, 1776 was more of a conception than a birth.
I'm a traditionalist :O)Live Steam
Aug 22, 2003 9:28 AM
I say 1776 is good enough for me. That is when the most risk was undertaken. It deserves a birthday!
So which of these two mostly incompatibleOldEdScott
Aug 22, 2003 10:37 AM
statements of what America is do you subscribe to?

Are you a human rights revolutionary? Or a conservative (old fashioned usage) Federalist who believes in (comparatively) Big Government?
I agreeDougSloan
Aug 23, 2003 4:10 PM
1776 -- that's when they said, "screw you; we are our own country." That was the birth, even though there were are few development/preschool years.

I seem to recall a lot of celebration in 1976, like no other after that.

Doug
I was being too subtle.OldEdScott
Aug 23, 2003 5:00 PM
The question really is:

ARe we or ought we to be the revolutionary country envisioned in the Declaration?

Or are we or ought we to be the federalist/centrally governed country established by the Constitution?

It seems to me our two great birth documents are fundamentally incompatible.
no continual revolutionDougSloan
Aug 24, 2003 10:40 AM
We were revolutionary, then we got what we wanted. Why continue to revolt? 'Bout time for a Libertarian revolution, though.

Doug
But Jefferson DID want perpetual revolution.OldEdScott
Aug 24, 2003 1:25 PM
Every 19 years, I believe. 'Generational sovereignty,' he called it. It drove Adams bonkers.

I'm all in favor of a Libertarian (asterisk) revolution. Does that mean the PATRIOT Act gets repealed?

(Asterisk): Libertarian in my formuation means freedom from economic exploitation and environmental oppression as well as freedom to do your own thing.
*DougSloan
Aug 24, 2003 1:53 PM
Your "*" excuses all Liberal policies, though, doesn't it?

A foundation of Libertarian philosophy is education and disclosure. It assumes, right or wrong, that educated people should be free to make their own decisions, to be exploited, to be oppressed, as long as they can be aware that they are.

I would not single out the Patriot Act. Might be a good start, but I'd likely repeal about 10,000 other federal laws. It's merely a drop in the ocean of federal usurpation of states' rights and government meddling where it shouldn't.

On the other hand, the primary responsibility of the federal government is national security. If it exists for any reason at all, that is it. You could do away with everything else, and that should be left. Of course, this would be done within the confines of the Constitution. As far as I know, the Supreme Court has yet to invalidate any portion of the Patriot Act. If and when they do, you'll have a point.

Doug

Doug
How does one, however 'educated,' DECIDE toOldEdScott
Aug 24, 2003 2:36 PM
be oppressed by a coal-fired pollution-spewing power plant three miles upwind? Don't tell me to just make an 'educated' decision to move. I was here first. I have a libertarian right to be left the hell alone to enjoy my farm and lifestyle,right?

Our shared libertarian philosophy, without the conditions I add, inevitably leads to sweatshops, child labor (someone makes an educated choice to be oppressed; presumably the 'educated' parent), poison air, sterile rivers and great riches for a few. You MUST admit those contradictions.

That said, I consider myself a libertarian socialist. Go figure.

I wasn't aware the PATRIOT Act had ever come before the Court that installed Bush-Ashcroft. What was the case?
another part of Libertarian philosphyDougSloan
Aug 24, 2003 2:59 PM
Of course, and I should have addressed this, there is the Libertarian foundation principle about your "freedom to swing your fist...." No, you cannot pollute if it "hits me in the face." Good point.

Your last point, I suppose, could prove either position. If it were so illegal, you'd think some court would have reviewed it by now. No, I don't know of any.

Doug
Not my fault that my side is slow to take upOldEdScott
Aug 24, 2003 3:20 PM
the sword. I'm sure there'll be a case. It takes awhile in the best of circumstances. But I'm sure us Libertarians will hurl ourselves into that breach, shortly.

I'm not really worried about PATRIOT, BTW. The American people will never, in the long run, stand for such unJeffersonian nonsense. I would add, though, that even the Alien and Sedition Acts (which PATRIOT and the longed-for PATRIOT II closely resemble) had a sunset clause. Presumably this never occured to the ever-vigilant Mr. Ashcroft.
I'll throw in another: October 19, 1781Me Dot Org
Aug 23, 2003 4:58 AM
The Day that Corwallis officially surrendered to Washington at Yorktown.