's Forum Archives - Non-Cycling Discussions

Archive Home >> Non-Cycling Discussions(1 2 3 4 )

Hey MJ chew on this(11 posts)

Hey MJ chew on thisLive Steam
Aug 21, 2003 3:21 PM
The criminal alien problem is growing.
Criminal aliens—non-citizens who commit crimes—are a growing threat to public safety and national security, as well as a drain on our scarce criminal justice resources. In 1980, our federal and state prisons housed fewer than 9,000 criminal aliens. By the end of 1999, these same prisons housed over 68,000 criminal aliens.1 Today, criminal aliens account for over 29 percent of prisoners in Federal Bureau of Prisons facilities and a higher share of all federal prison inmates.2 These prisoners represent the fastest growing segment of the federal prison population. Over the past five years, an average of more than 72,000 aliens have been arrested annually on drug charges alone.

Continued illegal immigration aggravates the problem.
Despite the Border Patrol making over one million apprehensions last year, they estimate they miss two or more illegal bordercrossers for every apprehension. Most enter for short periods, but there is an estimated net increase of about 300,000 a year from illegal bordercrossers who stay. An additional net increase of 200,000 comes from people who enter legally as nonimmigrants and then violate their status. Among the alien federal prisoners, over half (55 percent) were illegally in the United States at the time of their conviction.

Administering justice to criminal aliens costs the taxpayer dearly.
Incarceration of criminal aliens cost an estimated $624 million to state prisons (1999) and $891 million to federal prisons (2002), according to the most recent available figure from the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

The New York State Senate Committee on Cities estimates that the annual criminal justice costs for criminal aliens in New York is $270 million. The Committee has called for a national moratorium on immigration to help alleviate this problem.3 According to the Illinois Governor's Office, Illinois spends over $40 million just on the incarceration of criminal aliens. The cost to Florida's judicial and correction system for criminal aliens was $73 million in 1993. 4 In 1988, there were 5,500 illegal immigrants in California's prisons. By fiscal year 1994- 1995, that is estimated to have increased to more than 18,000 illegal immigrants in state prisons—a three-fold increase. California taxpayers have spent over a billion dollars in the last five years to keep these convicted felons in prison, and the FY 94–95 cost of incarcerating these offenders exceeded $375 million.5 The federal government has begun to reimburse heavily alien-impacted states for some of the costs of illegal alien prisoners in their state prisons. For 1996, Congress appropriated $300 million for this program.

Many criminal aliens are released into our society to commit crimes again.
Too often, criminal aliens are not identified in local and state jails, the INS is not informed of their presence, detention facilities are not available when they are released, they fail to report for deportation, or they return to the United States after deportation. In March 2000, Congress made public Department of Justice statistics showing that, over the previous five years, the INS had released over 35,000 criminal aliens instead of deporting them. Over 11,000 of those released went on to commit serious crimes, over 1,800 of which were violent ones (including 98 homicides, 142 sexual assaults, and 44 kidnappings). In 2001, thanks to a decision by the Supreme Court, the INS was forced to release into our society over 3,000 criminal aliens (who collectively had been convicted of 125 homicides, 387 sex offenses, and 772 assault charges).6
let's start with the first paragraph.dr hoo
Aug 21, 2003 7:28 PM
The first paragraph says, in essance, a 9k to 68k increase in state and federal prisons from 1980 to 1999. Consider this:

Enforcement leads to more prisoners. More enforcement leads to a higher raw crime rate.

Now, what happened in 1980? More enforcement?


The rest of the article looks, upon a quick skim, to be saying more prisoners is more expensive. Not much steak there, just sizzle and steam.
Not really following youLive Steam
Aug 21, 2003 7:41 PM
There is a marginal effort to relate more illegal border crossings with higher criminal activity. I think the "more enforcement" is a symptom not a cause for the crime rate being higher - meaning the more illegals, the higher potential for crimes being committed by that segment of the population. I agree that it does not say that illegal aliens commit crimes at a higher rate than legal aliens, but the fact that crimes are being committed by those that shouldn't be here in the first place is a problem. Don't you agree with that premise?
additionally ...Live Steam
Aug 21, 2003 7:50 PM
the 9k to 68k does not represent the total for the 20 year period. Each number is a snapshot for that particular year. Many more went through the system during that time span. Also the article states that many illegal alien criminals that are released and even deported, return to commit crimes again. A criminal is a criminal no matter where they reside. The simple fact is that they should not be here committing these crimes.
additionally ...dr hoo
Aug 22, 2003 3:54 AM
Comparing the same two years (80 and 99) 1,000,000 more americans are in prison. Clearly americans are more likely to commit crimes, so we should throw them out!

Your origninal claim was that illegals committed MORE crime than legals or citizens. That they had a higher crime rate. What you posted does not support that claim, which you admit.

Yes, crimes are bad. Mostly.

Enforcement has a huge effect. With the "war on drugs" for the past 22 years or so, many more people are arrested. How many mules are illegal aliens?

You need to find crime *rates*, not arrest or prison numbers. You need to find crime rates for illegal aliens, legal aliens, and citizens for the same time period. Your claim, your burden of proof.
additionally ...Live Steam
Aug 22, 2003 5:31 AM
I think you should go back and read the original posts. I only stated that our overall crime rate was higher than most other countries because we have a problem with immigration on two levels. A larger influx of legal aliens and an equally, if not larger influx of illegal aliens than any other country. I did state that "illegal aliens" may be inclined to commit more crimes because of their disconnect from the community and because of the nature of their clandestine existence. Many are hear illegaly because of their "mission" - drug mule, etc. I still stand by that, though it is a difficult to prove. There is no way of knowing how many illegal aliens are actually here, and it is difficult to know just who committed certain crimes that have not been solved or go unreported. So it would be difficult to apply a rate of comparison to crimes committed by legal aliens as they are at least accounted for in numbers.

I don't know exactly where to get the numbers from, but 11,000 of 35,000 illegal aliens released in a five year span went on to commit more crimes, so that can be compared to legal aliens who committed crimes over the same time span and were released.

Ah, who cares anyway? I think a lot of people want to stick their head in the sand on many issues and then complain about the results and state of the union later. We all have our different understanding of certain issues and weigh each differently. We draw different conclusions and place the blame at different feet. No one is 100% right or 100% wrong - just MJ :O)
who cares indeed?dr hoo
Aug 22, 2003 8:36 AM
11k out of 35k is a very low recidivism rate, comparatively. I think the rate for american offenders is at least 50%. I don't feel like looking it up though.

Legal immigration. I don't think the argument that legal immigrants offend at a higher rate holds water.

In fact, immigration has very little influence on the crime rate. Poverty has a much larger effect on street crime. And don't get me started on corporate crime and all the damage that does. Not many immigrants committing accounting fraud and selling millions of unsafe products!
I think we are on the same page ...Live Steam
Aug 22, 2003 8:52 AM
but you keep trying to put words in my mouth. I never said legal aliens commit crimes at a higher rate. I also agree about the damage corporate crime does to everyone. However, all crime at any level diminishes our quality of life.
Consider this...Matno
Aug 23, 2003 3:51 AM
The number of immigrants into this country (both legal and illegal) during the Clinton administration was more than in the previous several decades combined (maybe even more than all immigrants since WWII). That could have some effect. Also, don't forget that ALL illegal aliens BY DEFINITION are criminals. Don't get me wrong - I've known many wonderful people who came here without permission, but they are all breaking the law. After working in a city hospital in the Bronx, I feel even more strongly than before that anyone who is here illegally and not contributing to the tax base SHOULD NOT get ANY benefits from our government whatsoever. (Of course, then you have to distinguish between those who come here looking for opportunities to work and those who come here looking for opportunities to freeload, but that's not too hard to tell). I still think that English literacy should be a bare minimum requirement for immigration to the U.S.
then why doesn't bush get tougher about our borders?rufus
Aug 22, 2003 6:33 AM
there is much he can do to toughen our borders with mexico, but he refuses to take those steps for several reasons. 1. the large mexican-american population in texas and the rest of the southwest. 2. it would negatively impact our relations with mexico, affect big businesses nafta practices, and encourage retaliatory measures from the mexican government. perhaps meaning no more cheap mexican labor for corporate america south of the border. 3. where would all his buddies find groundskeepers, nannies, farm help, and poolboys if we export all the illegals?
Hey I'm with you hereLive Steam
Aug 22, 2003 7:19 AM
I say we shut our borders to all immigration for a period of time so we can get a better handle on things. But The left wouldn't like it either, so don't just pin this on Bush. Ask Tubby Teddy Kennedy why he opposes the Mass Immigration Reduction Act of 2003. Or why he opposed the Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act of 2002 and 2001. This shouldn't be a partisan issue, but as usual the jerks we elected cannot work together because of political ambitions.