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Treason by an 80-year-old man(40 posts)

Treason by an 80-year-old manOldEdScott
Jul 22, 2003 7:47 AM
Since there's nothing new simmering on the 72 TdayF websites I normally keep open simultaneously in a multitasking stew, I've been catching up on the news/opinion sites. Found this nasty little piece of treason written by an elderly man who should know better:
he's a cynical old communist nmDougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 7:54 AM
Or a distinguished American writer whoOldEdScott
Jul 22, 2003 7:58 AM
transformed his time. Unlike you. Or me.

But Red baiting is fashionable these days in Anti-America, so I'll let it slide.
nice tryDougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 8:40 AM
Trying to turn the Anti-American thing around. I guess you can have "Anti-American," and our side with stick with "Un-American."

Well, MY America has plenty of roomOldEdScott
Jul 22, 2003 8:45 AM
for you guys. The more the merrier! As the Great Navigator said, Let a thousand flowers bloom!

Can't say I feel very, uh, WELCOME in yours. I think it's just a difference in philosophy.
Methinks you, Steam, Doug and Czar need a group smooch. nmsn69
Jul 22, 2003 9:24 AM
Where IS Steam? He seems to have disappeared.OldEdScott
Jul 22, 2003 9:32 AM
You reckon he got all jacked up in sputtering reactionary outrage about something Bill Clinton is alleged to have done 15 years ago, and popped a giant bile-filled anyeurism in his brain?
I'm BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :O)Live Steam
Jul 23, 2003 7:44 AM
Was just on a little 10 day honeymoon in Nassau :O) Me and the new Mrs. had a great honeymoon vacation at Atlantis and the Ocean Club. I am well rested and well read. Just finished Ann's book - Treason. Very worthwhile reading. She paints a clear picture of a time in US history that was somewhat of a gray area to me as I was not yet a twinkle in my parent's eye at that time.

No I didn't pop a vein Ed :O) I do have a lot to say about the Red threat that continues even today, but I have to run out for a while and will pick up on that theme later.
Please post a report on AtlantisNo_sprint
Jul 23, 2003 11:49 AM
Looks like a really interesting place.
Please post a report on AtlantisLive Steam
Jul 23, 2003 12:44 PM
Hey no Sprint! A report? Well I have to first say bring a fat wallet :O) Second I have to say great and I'll qualify that. The accommodations (we stayed in the Royal Towers) are top notch. The room was well appointed and very spacious. We had a modified suite. The food in the restaurants is also top notch - actually I can't say enough about the food. It was excellent, but very expensive by normal standards and I live in NYC. However that said the service from the wait staff matched the food. The only thing I would suggest is to not get the food plan. It provides no advantage or discount. It actually limits your options such as if you prefer to dine somewhere in Nassau like Graycliff and certain menu items are additional if you have the food plan. The gourmet plan is $79pp/day. It can only be used for breakfast and dinner. Lunch is on you. This amount can be adequate if you dine at the buffets, but you will need to add much more to that daily total if you want to dine at the many gourmet a la cart restaurants.

There is a lot to do and plenty of places to sun, swim and recreate. If you have kids, they will have plenty of things to keep them occupied and having a blast. The Discovery Channel has a day camp there for the kids. There are water slides and river pools for them to go crazy in.

It is truly palatial and enormous. The master mind behind it, Sol Kerzner, really created a special place. It was at 100% occupancy and you wouldn't have known it. There were plenty of sports figures there - we saw OJ a few times with his look-a-like blond girlfriend, Ray Mickens from the Jets, and about a dozen NBAers (most of whom I have seen, but don't know there names). The place is a spectacle, but not overwhelming. We, being newly married and with no children, preferred staying at the Ocean Club, so we moved there after four days at Atlantis.

The Ocean Club caters to your every decadent desire. Champagne and chocolate covered strawberries are brought to your room each afternoon and you bed gets turned down and Godiva chocolates placed on your pillow. The spa is among the best I have ever had the pleasure of enjoying. The staff there jumps at every need/desire you have. I can't say enough about the Ocean Club. It is a very romantic setting. We have decided that should we desire a tropical vacation, this will be the only place we go. We have been disappointed at too many other places to leave it to chance any more. The Ocean Club too is owned by Sol Kerzner and Co. and you have use of all of the facilities at Atlantis at no extra charge. In fact when the staff at Atlantis discover you are from the Ocean Club, they seem to be that much more attentive. About the only complaint I have from the stay is the bar staff at both resorts. They are the worst. It takes two or three of them to mix one drink. It take forever to get a few drinks. I can't figure it out as every other service person was wonderful.

All I can say is I didn't feel like I got ripped off and the place is beautiful, well thought out with plenty to do and good food to boot. I will follow up with some pics if you like.
RED THREAT! ..... LOL! LOL! LOL! nmOldEdScott
Jul 24, 2003 5:03 AM
So, what would be un-American?DougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 9:38 AM
Is there anything someone could say that could be deemed "un-American"?

When people make comments to the effect that "we (Americans) deserve the terrorism (or global treatment, etc.)" we are encountering, I take that as un-American, for example. Some people want to then say that I'm not permitted to call anyone else "un-American," for that would be commenting on or an attempt to limit their freedom of speech. So, I guess the term "un-American" is totally off limits, right?

I believe as a matter of deep principle thatOldEdScott
Jul 22, 2003 10:05 AM
any American citizen can say any friggin political thing they FEEL like saying, and do so without being un-American. Absolutely. The whole POINT of America is that there is no political dogma. How could ANY political expression be un-American? To employ the concept at all, you have to say there IS a dogma.

Besides, if you ARE American, how can you be UN-American? It's nonsensical. America is, by the definition of 1776, the expression of the sum of its parts, each part being equal.

Within this formulation, it is even possible for you to call someone un-American if you feel like it, without me in turn labeling you un-Anerican for doing it. You would be speaking logical nonsense, but nonsense is fine in this country

However, a desire to limit speech (i.e. political activity) to certain officially approved political dogmas runs counter to this deep American principle. It is, in fact, an inversion or complete opposite of the Platonic 'idea' of America. Like anti-matter. I choose to call this twisted vision of America the Anti-America. You can be of the anti-American persuasion without being un-American.

When I hear the bilious venom spouted by the likes of Ann Coulter about 'treason' if you hold liberal political views, I have visions of the Camps and see the sterile beaches of Anti-America on the horizon.
"Un" = Incompatible with. "Anti" = Against. The Right = Both.czardonic
Jul 22, 2003 10:12 AM
I think that the Authoritarian Right is un-American in that its philosophy of social darwinism and theocracy is fundamentaly incompatible with the founding principles of this country (i.e. individual freedom, seperation of Church and State, etc.)

I would also peg them as anti-American to boot, given their extended campaign to pervert the Constitution into a blunt insturment with which to enforce their narrow-minded agenda.
I agree with you 100%DougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 10:22 AM
I'd have to agree with you, if your premises were at all true. Problem is, you have created this straw person of some evil autocratic empire that doesn't even exist, except in your mind. Makes a great target, but that target ain't there.

Talking to me or czar?OldEdScott
Jul 22, 2003 10:27 AM
If me ...

If Ann Coulter ain't some evil autocratic empire, I don't know what is!
czar (he's much better at straw persons - you pick real ones) nmDougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 10:31 AM
How about a real world example of un-American activity.czardonic
Jul 22, 2003 10:56 AM
Shipping prisoners off-shore so that you can deprive them of rights and due process. Seems pretty un-American to me. Otherwise, they would be able to do it in America. No?

As for my "straw person", I didn't say that it existed outside of the stated purpose of the Right -- i.e. subjecting the United States to their "Christian Worldview", which is by definition autocratic.
Czar, remember that there is "a rat" in "separate" (nm) sorry94Nole
Jul 22, 2003 10:42 AM
Thanks. Is this the second time you've had to remind me? nmczardonic
Jul 22, 2003 10:49 AM
It's just one of the few things...94Nole
Jul 22, 2003 10:59 AM
I remember from school days. Don't mean to belittle or beat a dead horse.
I'll get it eventually. (nm)czardonic
Jul 22, 2003 11:02 AM
thanks great articleMJ
Jul 22, 2003 8:28 AM
it's reassuring to know that he's still fighting the good fight
He's still as passionate as evercritmass
Jul 22, 2003 9:09 AM
And truthful. Write prose that kicks the boyz where it hurts and hear the Anti-American screams

"We have been gulled about the real reasons for this war, tweaked and poked by some of the best button-pushers around to believe that we won a noble and necessary contest when, in fact, the opponent was a hollowed-out palooka"
Ted Kaczynski was passionate, too nmDougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 9:40 AM
You know absolutely nothing about Norman Mailer, do you?OldEdScott
Jul 22, 2003 10:10 AM
Pretty unworthy cheap shot. And the earlier 'communist' reference betrays VAST ignorance about his politics.
You know absolutely nothing about exaggeration, do you?DougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 10:19 AM
Lighten up, Francis. I'm just tweakin ya. We have your number -- just throw in an occasional "communist," "un-American," or "pantywaste" and you guys come out from under your rocks sluggin at the air. ;-)
Hey, I'm PROUD to be called pantywaste! nmOldEdScott
Jul 22, 2003 10:21 AM
sorry, my mistake; let's go with "bleeding heart", then nmDougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 10:23 AM
God, if I could just be called a 'bleeding pantywaste' ...nmOldEdScott
Jul 22, 2003 10:26 AM
LMFAO! (oh, the mental image) ...nmDougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 10:32 AM
re: nasty little piece...Fredrico
Jul 22, 2003 10:54 AM
is, as Mailer has been before, right on. It becomes clear that Bush trumped up those charges, the nuclear arms, the WMDs, to take out Hussein, 15 years after setting him up, and get away with it, politically.

Johnson got us into Vietnam with a similar charge, the attack on the destroyer Maddox in the South China Sea, which was spying on North Vietnam. That was Johnson's excuse to increase American troops from 20,000 or so to a half million. The attack on the Maddox probably never happened, but that's all Johnson needed to declare war and go into Vietnam, guns blazing, to eventually lose 50,000 men, squander billions, only to withdraw, as the French did 30 years before, in a humiliating defeat.

Will history repeat itself in the hands of the rich kid with connections who skipped out on Vietnam? What self-serving hypocrisy! Innocent, well-meaning kids from Tennessee, no matter how cleverly directed, can "pacify" a people who they are daily alienating, just as in Vietnam.
re: nasty little piece...critmass
Jul 22, 2003 11:49 AM
From his Why are We in Vietnam and The Armies of the Night to this article Mailer has constantly shown a distaste for hypocrisy on the left and the right in matters of war. His comparison of Ho Chi Minh and Dean Rusk in The Armies lays waste to the same attitudes this article does. Kudos to him for still being willing to show us the hypocrisy and for walloping a roundhouse right into the heart of the subject
Meaningless editorializing by a "writer"No_sprint
Jul 22, 2003 11:16 AM
who knows that drama sells. I didn't even bother reading it.
Mailer is an honest man.Fredrico
Jul 22, 2003 12:05 PM
That's more than you can say for Bush or his zealots, or the average "organization man" Mailer talks about. Meaningless editorializing? Read his article again.
Mailer is an honest man.Jon Billheimer
Jul 22, 2003 12:35 PM
The knee jerk conformity based upon the wounded, fearful collective ego that Mailer describes is, in Old Ed's terminology, quintessentially anti-American. I believe that in many, many ways America has morphed into it's shadow-self opposite. The Bush neocon right wing absolutely hates real individualism and anything that smacks of critical thinking, for this would challenge not only their hypocrisy but also their unrelenting hold on power. Czar's term "authoritarian right" is certainly apt.
Ah, the facade is coming off and the real colors are showing (nmSteveS
Jul 22, 2003 7:38 PM
Mailer is an articulate idiot, thanks. (nm)SteveS
Jul 22, 2003 7:36 PM
Writers write what sells, that's why they're opinionsNo_sprint
Jul 23, 2003 11:41 AM
are so meaningless. I can look at the facts objectively and form a better opinion because I don't have to sell my opinion to put food on the table, or to send my kids to very expensive schools for 20 years.
Yeah Mailer still needs to make money to put food on the tablecritmass
Jul 23, 2003 2:40 PM
He probably makes more in just royalties in one year than you will make in the next 20.