|If you had proof of Jesus' historical existence -- a la the||OldEdScott|
Jun 27, 2003 7:59 AM
|ossuary, but even more conclusive and confirming of the Biblical account -- would it change your religious beliefs? Would you become a Christian, or become a better one?|
|What if proof lay with Allah, Budda, Shiva, etc?||sn69|
Jun 27, 2003 8:05 AM
|I don't think the question is undeniable proof for all, but rather undeniable proof on the individual basis. Kristin's faith speaks volumes to this subject. That which defines truth to one does not necessarily define truth to all.
Word to yo rabbi,
|Well, sure, I found truth on 500 mcg acid at Danang one night||OldEdScott|
Jun 27, 2003 8:17 AM
|in 1967, a big heavy hand on my shoulder and a deep booming voice saying: "You wanted to look at the Books? Then LOOK at the Books, damn you." Shudder. Never been the same since. Anyone asks me if I believe it God, and say, Man, I MET him and I saw the Books ...
I think my question is more like: Would HISTORICAL, as opoosed to subjective (me on acid, Kristin on ... Kristin) knowledge affect your religious beliefs?
|Acid, The Nam, post-coffee buzz aside,||sn69|
Jun 27, 2003 8:38 AM
|Personally, I'd still answer no, Ed. Deep down inside, I don't feel that Christ is my savior. Perhaps a large part of that is deeply-rooted operant conditioning growing up Jewish. Still, I just don't believe that Christ offers me that which others find in him. Would that change with some measure of historical proof (ignoring the corollary issue of what defines proof)? Dunno. I believe he existed and WAS the savior to a great many people. I also believe that Moses, Muhammed, Shiva, the Budda and many other manifestations of a supreme power have and continue to mean a lot to a great many people.
Still, for my muddled mind at least, who the hell are we to determine or otherwise define a single manifestation of a supreme being?
In my odd, sordid world, God has the agape love of a dog, the soul of Ghandi, the wisdom of Jefferson, the imagination of a child, the wit of Carlin and the voice of Keruac. Oh, and he likes carne asada, Mexican beer and steel bikes.
PS (I look forward to an acid trip of my own some day when I throw off the shackles of The Man.)
|Oh young Scott there's no sweeter acid than||OldEdScott|
Jun 27, 2003 8:41 AM
|acid eaten under the shackles of The Man. That and Thai sticks. You may consult with others of my generation if you want confirmation!|
|Yeah, well The Man has this nasty fixation||sn69|
Jun 27, 2003 8:47 AM
|with our urine. That said, there's a decent subsitute. Stay awake and fly for three days strait while living on stale pancit, lumpia and adobo. Drink stupid large amounts of dopio espressos (a new addition to the carrier back in '97) made with water laced with JP8. After 74.sumthin' hours of no sleep and 8 double shots of the sacred bean, I was high as a kite.
Ahh, the good old days on the boat. In that sense alone, it's good to be a C-9 flyin' REMF.
|HA HA HA! Well, The Man in my day had no interest in our urine.||OldEdScott|
Jun 27, 2003 8:53 AM
|He was afraid too. A hundred urine tests = a hundred multiple-positives = no one to fight His war! We was the stonedest damn fightin force you ever seen, at least on days were wasn't actually humpin.
Some a them damn Thai sticks was so potent I bet I STILL test positive, 30-some years later.
|Well, in our world of professional zero tollerance||sn69|
Jun 27, 2003 9:02 AM
|(which I approve of incidentally), we still have a regular incidence of substance abuse, although at a SUBSTANTIALLY lower rate.
My favorite occurance to date was a young non-rate in my first squadron. He was striking to become a jet engine mech (what we call an AD in the Navy), but we eventually busted him for crystal meth and ad-sepped him.
What makes the story so special, however, is how we busted him. We noticed that the young man was walking gingerly in obvious pain. We sent him to the flight surgeon, who was horrified to learn that the young man had cicumcised himself, apparently with a pen-knife. He got himself hepped-up on meth and proceded to test the Ginsu qualities of his Swiss Army special. According to the doc, he did a good job with the "surgery," but his post-op sanitation was lacking. He developed a nasty infection; thus the pained walking. The blood screen run for the infection turned-up the drugs.
In the days leading up to his NJP hearing, the squadron took to calling him "The Rabbi." Being a fully-indoctrinated member of the tribe, I felt obligated to educate them and explained that he was techinally "The Moyel," a rabbi with special qualifications.
See? Drugs are fun even for the casual observer.
|The Moyel! Good one! nm||OldEdScott|
Jun 27, 2003 9:05 AM
|Even more fun for the casual observer... nm||PdxMark|
Jun 27, 2003 9:07 AM
|Also, that's a mighty fine God if he combines||OldEdScott|
Jun 27, 2003 8:43 AM
|agape, Kerouac and steel bikes!|
|Ed, the real question should be...||Starliner|
Jun 27, 2003 2:59 PM
|Whether there could be undisputed historical proof that Jesus existed wouldn't substantially alter my belief.
Now, if there could be undisputed proof that Jesus did NOT exist; that he was a mythical fabrication, well, then I guess a lot of us would suddenly have a great void to fill. Hmmmm, could Satan be a fake, too....
Jun 27, 2003 8:06 AM
|I think it's a fairly safe historical assumption that Jesus was a real person in the 1st century.
But there is no test for Godness!
Accepting that Jesus was god, etc. etc. is a matter of faith and should not try to rely on facts.
Jun 27, 2003 8:27 AM
|Dwayne, I was waiting for someone to bring up this point. A couple of years ago a fundamentalist Christian friend of mine gave me this conservative apologetic. The central point that the author made was that since there is very good historical verification of Jesus' existence and, in his opinion, validity of the Gospel accounts, then if the resurrection actually did happen as recorded, Jesus has to be God. Logically, not so at all! As a matter of fact in the first three centuries a.d. about 40% of the "church"--the Alexandrian wing--did not regard Jesus as divine at all. This was the source of the Athanasian controversy.
Scott made a good point regarding faith.
|There will never be enough proof||Kristin|
Jun 27, 2003 8:12 AM
|There is already proof of sorts. Josephus, who is widely accepted, writes of a man named Jesus who had a large following in Jerusalem during the time that the bible claims that Jesus was conducting his ministry. So there is at least validation that this person named Jesus did live and was a leader of some sort. You'll never find proof that this Jesus was actually God incarnate who created the earth and all of its inhabitants. The God/good man/lunatic debate is a matter entirely based on faith. My personal experience and logical reasoning has lead me to believe that He was indeed God come to earth. But I also believe that his teachings are easily and often misunderstood. These day's I have more questions than answers though.|
Jun 27, 2003 9:42 AM
|The proof will be in the second coming.|
|Oh, you're trying to bait me.||Kristin|
Jun 27, 2003 9:49 AM
|I'm not getting into that debate. My views on Revelation are neither common or fashionable.|
|I'm only joking by the way||Kristin|
Jun 27, 2003 9:55 AM
|I don't believe you were trying to bait me. But any discussion on this subject matter is bound to be trouble.|
|Oh, you're trying to bait me.||Softrider|
Jun 27, 2003 9:57 AM
|No baiting whatsoever, Just my observation.|
|Good point. God doesn't want there to be "proof", yet.||jesse1|
Jun 27, 2003 10:09 AM
|It is all about faith. If God wanted to work it any other way, Jesus would have walked the Earth at a time when he could be on "Meet the Press" or "Imus In the Morning". That would have been too easy for us. It's all about faith, or going against human nature. Our human nature requires us to believe in what we see with our eyes. We need to be able to "see" with our heart.|
|At which time, it will be too late.(nm)||94Nole|
Jun 27, 2003 10:11 AM
|There will never be enough proof||Softrider|
Jun 27, 2003 10:10 AM
|Kristin, you are not alone. If you find a person who has more answers than they have questions about God, don't believe a word they say.
When I start to question my faith, I read Hebrews 11 and it puts thing back into perspective.
Jun 27, 2003 8:20 AM
|He may have existed, but it's irrelevant, because there's no way you could confirm the biblical account. How would you prove the immaculate conception, for instance?
Faith is still the only thing that matters. You either buy into the whole deal or you don't. Finding an old dusty box or burial shroud doesn't help one iota.
|wouldn't make a darn bit of difference nm||DougSloan|
Jun 27, 2003 8:45 AM
|Faith is always a choice................||Len J|
Jun 27, 2003 12:37 PM
|No one ever believes without choice.
For every argument that he was God, someone can bring up an argument why he wasn't and Vice versa.
Most people seem to forget thjat all belief is, on some level, a choice.
|He did exist, just like every other historical figure. (nm)||terry b|
Jun 27, 2003 2:44 PM
Jun 28, 2003 10:00 PM
|Personally, I have no doubt at all that Jesus existed. Possibly your question and the answer to it would hinge upon whether everything written in the New Testament about Jesus is absolutely correct. If that is the question and if the New Testament were 100 per correct (verified by what, I have no idea. A miracle?) then it would be fairly stupid not to change one's ways completely as the opposite would guarantee eternal damnation, as I remember it.
Unfortunately, things aren't that simple, free will, faith and all that comes into play and miracles never really seem to happen in current day life. Would that they would.
Let's see, how would that go, oh yeah, the believers would get 'raptured' and leave the world to the Leftists to enjoy the Apocalypse; war, famine, pestilence, and death of 2/3 of the population, followed by the real biggie--Judgement Day.
That would scare the Hell out of a bunch of them. That part would be funny.
|Nah, the Neo-Cons would be left behind to enjoy||OldEdScott|
Jun 30, 2003 5:44 AM
|all those things, which they've hungered for for years.|
Jun 30, 2003 6:56 AM
|Don't think so, it is the Leftists and liberals who make careers of disparaging and rejecting Christian scriptures, so if it did indeed turn out that Jesus was who He said He was and the scriptures were indeed true...well, then "His will be done on Earth as well as heaven."
You might be 'right' (lucky you), the two L's would be dead and enjoying hellfire for eternity. (Probably they would try to sue God for 'cruel and unusal punishment' along with the usual "How can a loving Creator allow this? type excuse/scam, which of course wouldn't work in this case. No, more likely that they would protest then riot in Hell, demanding 'forgiveness' rather than punishment, but as you know, the Bible isn't written that way. At least not after Judgement Day.)
|I've never disparaged a scripture in my life.||OldEdScott|
Jun 30, 2003 7:29 AM
|Yet another misrepresentation from the Right.|| |