|Another case of a stupid federal law....||ClydeTri|
Apr 22, 2003 10:03 AM
So, I guess if Saddam Hussein snuck into the country, got a job at the local 7-11, then went for help on filing his taxes...if the local IRS agent knows it was Saddam, he couldnt tell any other federal agency..he would allow Saddam to file his taxes and go his merry way....
|Another case of differeing perspectives.||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 10:23 AM
|You see the "stupidity" of letting decent people go about the business of working and paying taxes, i.e. being productive, responsible members of society.
I a reactionary and punitive nativism that ignores the fact that illegal aliens often work hard and pay more in taxes than they collect in services.
|Hey, that's me, that's probably most of us.||No_sprint|
Apr 22, 2003 10:46 AM
|Pays more in taxes than services I/we collect.
Should this fact only not be ignored just for illegal aliens?
|"Probably"? Its not worth debating without the facts. (nm)||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 10:59 AM
|These lawbreakers often suck city/county health systems dry. nm||No_sprint|
Apr 22, 2003 11:07 AM
|Okay, its not worth debating w/o <i>evidence</i>.||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 11:12 AM
|Where is your evidence that illegal aliens suck city or county health systems dry to a greater degree than they contribute to society through their underpaid labor?|
|Here is some evidence||Alpedhuez55|
Apr 22, 2003 11:44 AM
|"The Urban Institute has estimated that 15% of all kindergarten through high school kids in California are illegal immigrants. This alone costs taxpayers $1.6 billion a year. Public schools, teachers' unions and the department of education are constantly blaming their putrid performances in the education arena on 'lack of funds' or 'large class sizes.' Neither makes mention of this massive, unaccountable drain on taxpayers who finance this undocumented, illegal influx in our nation's classrooms.
The total cost of providing federally mandated education and health care to illegal aliens is estimated at more than $5 billion annually. That's $5 billion dollars worth of lost education and lost health care for American citizens. One in seven inmates in California state prisons is an illegal alien. The estimated yearly cost of incarcerating illegal immigrants in the United States is $500 million.
Hospitals, too, are required by law to treat any illegal alien that shows up for medical care. Of course, the little issue of 'who pays for these unaccountable treatments' is not covered in this law. As a result, many hospitals along the border between the U.S. and Mexico have either been forced to close their doors or are facing severe financial crises as mandatory healthcare treatment to illegal aliens gobbles up their resources." http://www.patriotist.com/knight.htm
"The study, titled "Medical Emergency: Costs of Uncompensated Care in Southwest Border Counties," estimates that at least 25% of the border county hospitals uncompensated care costs, or $190 million in 2000, are incurred from providing services to undocumented aliens. In addition, emergency medical service providers lost about $13 million providing care and transportation for illegal aliens injured while crossing the border."
|That is only half the story.||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 12:04 PM
|You still haven't proven that illegals don't contribute more than they take through taxes and underpaid labor. Surely it isn't their fault if their contributions are missallocated.|
|What's the other half?||Matno|
Apr 22, 2003 12:24 PM
|Logic says that billions of dollars of health care and education benefits are a lot more than the contribution of sub-minimum wage illegal workers. Alpe has shown the evidence of the cost. You seem to disagree with logic here, so I'd say the burden of proof is now on your shoulders to prove that illegals DO contribute more.
By the way, if "it isn't their fault if their contributions are misallocated," then whose fault is it? I'd say that the person responsible for one's "allocation" is that person, not someone else. Especially in this country.
|The other Half||Alpedhuez55|
Apr 22, 2003 12:42 PM
|Czar is looking for evidence that does not exist. Illegals take jobs way from documentaed aliens and citizens who would pay taxes and insurance. THe people who benefit from it are the ones who hire them for cheap labor instead of paying the going rate.
His argument is weak here. I can say the Easter Bunny Exists unless Czar can show me evidence to prove otherwise.
If Czar can show figures showing their economic benefits he can debate it. He does not seem to find it though. He cannot seem prove his point.
|Typical nativist agitprop.||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 12:52 PM
|Where is this mass of unemployed would-be dishwashers, day-laborers and migrant farm workers?|
|Right here in the Bronx||Matno|
Apr 22, 2003 1:23 PM
|Thousands of them. Probably hundreds of thousands. I've been in their homes. Plenty of other cities are the same way. The gov't can be quite good to you if you know how to work the system. Most of them do. I've in been in apartments in the "projects" that have more new electronics equipment than I'm likely to see in my house ever. It's not an isolated one or two incidents either. I also know plenty of people who have come to this country legally, work hard, and seek further education. They are not a drain on society, but the whole point of this thread is legal versus illegal, and why illegal aliens are a drain on society.|
|I simply submit that. . .||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 1:34 PM
|. . .whether someone comes here legally or illegaly has little to do with their intention to work hard and seek further education. If there are individuals who do not do this, then they should be dealt with accordingly.
I see many people using what amounts to a techinicality in the grand scheme of criminal law as an excuse to deny a group en-masse of a principle that is very fundamental to this country: presumed innocence. Let's remeber that the real point of this thread is whether or not the IRS should rat out tax-paying illegals. Surely, any illegal who is squared away with the IRS is paying his own way (at least to the extent that any legal immigrant is).
|You got me on that one...||Matno|
Apr 22, 2003 8:13 PM
|I fully agree that as long as we are going to not enforce immigration laws, it would be stupid to seek out the illegal aliens who actually ARE paying taxes and kick them out with a higher preference than any other illegal alien.
I will point out though, that there ARE a lot (and I'm not going to hazard a guess as to actual numbers or percentages, but a lot) of illegals who come here specifically FOR the welfare system. It's not just our country either. Sweden, which is about as close to Communism as any country without actually claiming to be Communist now has a huge population of Latin Americans (among others). You can bet they didn't go there for the job market...
|He also completely forgets and refuses to acknowledge||No_sprint|
Apr 22, 2003 12:53 PM
|most of us pay far more taxes than the services we get as he first mentions.|
|I freely acknowledge it. But how is it relevant? (nm)||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 1:02 PM
Apr 22, 2003 1:08 PM
|Because if the issue with your cause is just that, paying more in taxes than collection of services, being an illegal immigrant is irrelevant because there are millions of non-illegal immigrants in that situation.|
|I'm going to try my best to wring sense out of that sentence.||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 1:17 PM
|If an illegal immigrant pays more in taxes than he or she recieves in services, would you then agree that they are not a drain on our resources, and in fact are a contributor to our society?
For the record, I understand that this remains a disputed "if". But it would be helpful to seperate unreasoning nativism from genuine economic cost/benefit principle.
|Also makes the net value irrelevant||No_sprint|
Apr 22, 2003 1:11 PM
|For if everyone who pays taxes receives that value in services, there'd be no money left to pay for the non income tax paying legal immigrants, etc.
Bill Gates would be gettin' a hell of a lot of services.
Hey, I kinda like your idea, make it happen. Won't be able to do it here though.
|I'm stumped. (nm)||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 1:18 PM
|That is not logic. It's assumption.||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 12:43 PM
|Do tell. How do you personally manage the allocation of your tax dollars?
Don't you ever wonder why illegal immigration is tolerated? I assure you it is not thanks to the machinations of bleeding heart liberals. It is because businesses, who drive much of this country's policy, know better than to kill the goose that lays golden eggs for them in the form of cheap, industrious labor.
|I was talking about||Matno|
Apr 22, 2003 1:28 PM
|allocation of labor, not tax dollars. Few big businesses (the kind that "drive much of this country's policy" as you put it) use illegal labor. That kind of labor is much more utilized among small businesses, who have little political clout. Illegal immigration is not "tolerated" so much as it is just hard to control without more serious penalties for violations. (Remember Cheech and Chong when they see the guys loading on to the immigration bus so that they can get a free ride to Mexico for a wedding?) Our immigration penalties are a joke. (Then again, so are most of our criminal penalties). A slap on the wrist and a "please don't do this again or we'll have to take you back home again - if we happen to catch you next time."|
|So, how much of your politics is informed by Cheech and Chong? nm||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 1:36 PM
|So, how much of your politics is informed by Cheech and Chong? nm||Sintesi|
Apr 22, 2003 3:05 PM
|Wow! What a zinger my little piece of fettuccine.|
|How about some obvious examples?||Matno|
Apr 22, 2003 11:51 AM
|The bottom line is that any population that gets a benefit without paying for that benefit in taxes is a drain. Period. We don't have any other sources of income besides taxes. Money doesn't grow on trees. If it did, we wouldn't have TRILLIONS of dollars of national debt due to overspending. (No special thanks to Bush and pals here).
Let's start with education. Does anyone argue that we have enough tax money to support even our own children's educations? How about arguing that the current state of public education in our country is even barely acceptable? It's not. Obviously, EVERY SINGLE CHILD who is an illegal immigrant or the child of an illegal immigrant is a drain on our education system. They require just as much money (and in many cases more money) as the children of citizens, and they add to the already overcrowded size of classrooms. Granted, those illegal children who get an education will be better off and probably be more able to contribute to society, but at the cost of lowering quality of education across the board. Is it worth it?
Same thing goes for welfare benefits. EVERY SINGLE ILLEGAL ALIEN ON WELFARE is a direct drain on the country's economic system. I don't care if there are many of them who are not a drain because there is no way that that can make up for the amount of money that goes toward supporting illegals on welfare. It would take a VERY wealthy illegal alien (assuming that any of them pay taxes, and like I said before, why would they?) to support just ONE illegal alien on welfare. (I don't know the percentage of taxes that actually goes toward welfare, but a percentage of any illegal worker's wages is bound to be small in terms of actual amount). Factor that out across millions of illegal aliens, and you're talking a serious economic imbalance. If a "study" says the economic benefit outweighs the economic cost, they're not weighing all the costs (nobody ever does).
As for health care, don't even get me started. I live next door to a hospital that serves a very large population of illegal immigrants. Many of them come to this country for the SOLE PURPOSE of receiving medical care at your expense. If you want to pay for them to get medical care, that's your prerogative (as an example, my parents paid $4000 in dental bills last year for a friend from Africa who is here on a student visa). HOWEVER, it is neither the duty nor the right of our gov't to pay for such services using tax dollars. Since we DO pay for them, that is another drain on our economic system.
Finally, I fully realize that many aliens serve a valuable economic role by filling jobs that people here may not be willing to do. However, I strongly feel that those jobs could either be filled by legal aliens who are currently not contributing to society (i.e. my hundreds of thousands of able bodied neighbors on welfare here in the Bronx) or replaced by more efficient methods.
Why do I even bother replying here? Does anybody besides me really even care?
|I don't have kids...||TJeanloz|
Apr 22, 2003 11:58 AM
|The whole point of public schools, if I'm not mistaken, is that it's better to have educated adults than uneducated ones, correct? Frankly, if I'm paying for your kid to go to school, why shouldn't I also pay for my janitor's kid to go to school? I don't really like your kid any more than I like his. And raising illiterate kids, just because they're here illegally doesn't seem to be a reasonable policy. Your kids are a drain on the economy too. As for health care, I'm all for kicking people to the curb if they can't afford it. American health care is, by all accounts, a luxury. Why not just change the law to refuse health care to those who can't pay for it?|
|KEY word is illegal....||ClydeTri|
Apr 22, 2003 10:50 AM
|They are committing a crime..|
|That is definitely true. But again, perceptions differ.||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 10:58 AM
|Speaking for myself, I don't see someone who's only crime is working hard and supporting themselves as a criminal worth worrying about. I just don't care, much as I just don't care about jay-walking. I do think that illegal immigrants who are not supporting themseleves should be deported. But they aren't likely to cross paths with the IRS now are they?|
|Anecdotal and irrelevant...||Matno|
Apr 22, 2003 10:51 AM
|Sure, illegal aliens "often" work hard and pay taxes, but I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority do not. If you were in the country illegally, would you pay taxes and thereby tell the gov't that you were here?
It's all a moot point anyway, since illegal aliens, by DEFINITION, are breaking the law. "Responsible members of society" do not willfully break the law. Period. I do not have a problem with people from other countries who come to America seeking jobs, the American Dream, etc., but I have a very BIG problem with people who do so illegally, many (if not most) of whom ARE in fact a huge drain on our welfare (sic) system and economy. Our immigration laws have become FAR too lax. We should never have abolished the requirement of literacy for immigration. (Even if we don't go back to the original requirement of English literacy, at least literacy in SOME language). Literacy has been shown to be one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) indicator of economic viability for both individuals and populations in general. Why we dump huge burdens on ourselves is beyond me. (Although I do have my suspicions - mostly based on who was responsible for the unprecedented huge influx of foreigners during the 90's).
|Are you talking about your own argument?||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 10:54 AM
|Because I really don't see anything beyond assumptions.|
|Just questioning your implication...||Matno|
Apr 22, 2003 11:13 AM
|...that because "many people often" do something one way, that has any relevance to reality. Show me numbers that "prove" that illegal aliens are more of a positive addition than a negative in our society, then I'll start being interested...|
|It just seems like common sense. . .||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 11:23 AM
|. . .since illegal aliens pay all kind of taxes and recieve very little in terms of representation of services in return. On top of that, they often work for below minimum wage.
Anyway, so what if my assumption is no less definitive that yours? The fact remains that yours is the pejorative, suspicious and punitive of the two. Mine grants people the benefit of the doubt and holds that they should not be harassed or persecuted unless it can be proven that they have done something wrong (which is not the same as illegal).
|LOL This is just absurd, where is the evidence you speak of?||No_sprint|
Apr 22, 2003 11:32 AM
|Not worth arguing?
now it's *representation*? first it was *services*.
Who says they often work below minimum wage? Where's your proof?
*it just seems like common sense* that's what you're all about.
Full of it. Bunch of hot air, bunch of BS.
|I asked <i>you</i> for evidence, and you haven't given any.||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 12:07 PM
|A far as I am concerned, indivudial illegals are innocent of being a net drain on society until proven otherwise.|
|LOL Now it's a silly *net* drain.||No_sprint|
Apr 22, 2003 12:55 PM
|I never said anything about *net* value.|
|Always was. Scroll up. (nm)||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 1:00 PM
|Always was irrelevant to me.||No_sprint|
Apr 22, 2003 1:13 PM
|Two different things, paying out healthcare and education to illegals and some *perceived* underpayment of wages.|
|And what of the *percieved* underpayment of taxes? (nm)||czardonic|
Apr 22, 2003 1:21 PM
Apr 22, 2003 10:58 AM
|Actual economic research suggests that immigrants, particularly illegal immigrants, are an essential part of the American economy, and have very little negative impact on the welfare/social systems in the US. I find the existence of illegal immigrants somewhat flattering -- these are people who want what we have in America SO badly that they knowingly break the law to do what our own sloth-children refuse to.
Frankly, I believe immigration laws are foolish barriers to entry and cause more economic harm than good. Open the boarders. Let them in. Who am I, the descendent of immigrants, to say who can and cannot now come to these shores?
|This seems to be your day||OldEdScott|
Apr 22, 2003 11:12 AM
|to make politically advanced arguments that are demonstrably true but doomed to get little support. Welcome to my world!|
|Every dog has his day, even me (nm)||TJeanloz|
Apr 22, 2003 11:14 AM
Apr 22, 2003 11:18 AM
|Laws are laws, why not follow them? Some of these laws were enacted not to let mass murdering immigrants in. *Open* is a relative term. Consider immigrating to Holland. A virtual impossibility.|
|"Very little negative impact on the welfare/social systems?"||Matno|
Apr 22, 2003 11:22 AM
|Show me the data.
I totally agree that it is "flattering" to have people literally dying to come here. Unfortunately, demographically, they are the same groups who, when they get citizenship (or have children who are automatically citizens) vote heavily in favor of change. Go figure. They come to the "land of the free" because they can be more successful here (or just because life is easier here) and then they try to make America more like "home."
As for who decides who gets to come here, that's not your decision or anyone else's (speaking of individuals). Our representative gov't made the laws that restrict entry, presumably for good reasons. Thus, when people ILLEGALLY enter the country, they are violating laws that our elected representatives feel are in our own best interests. Keep in mind that our gov't does not have ANY responsibility for anyone other than our own citizens (in spite of what the current administration or any other administration may say or do).
|Illegal immigrants aren't eligible for most programs..||TJeanloz|
Apr 22, 2003 11:33 AM
|The only social bits that illegal immigrants have access to are emergency medical treatment and public schools. They can't get a welfare benefit, or any other means-based social benefit. I've been trying to come up with a reasonable study, but the issue seems so polarized that unbiased research (i.e. not from the Heritage Foundation) is largely unavailable. It is also pretty tough to research people who are afraid to tell you they exist.
I agree that illegal immigrants are, as their name implies, illegal. And if they are caught, they should be deported. But it isn't a pressing social issue. And while it is not my decision to make immigration law, I merely proposed what would be my preference if it were my decision, and, by proxy, what my representative might want to consider.
|I think it might be a bit more than that here in Calif nm||DougSloan|
Apr 22, 2003 12:53 PM