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The Marines have finally lost it(86 posts)

The Marines have finally lost itDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 12:49 AM
I watched the report (by which I mean video footage) of a detachment of US Marines shooting women and children yesterday - including a 6 year old girl - in the head. Unarmed, in cold blood, on a backstreet in Baghdad.

How the hell is this being allowed to happen? I keep hoping I'm going to wake up soon, and find this had been a terrible nightmare.

What the hell are they doing - that is just plain murder.
Who reported this?jesse1
Apr 11, 2003 1:43 AM
I've been watching Fox & MSNBC more than I should be, and I haven't seen or heard anything like this.
When you post something like this you need to also include who (what network) was reporting it. I don't consider this credible,
Are you surprised?Downhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 3:10 AM
it was on the UK National News (Ch 4) last night. It was a C4 film crew, reporter and interpreter that were at the scene.

The interpreter actually had to get the girl shot in the head and tell the Marines to administer first aid - they were, it seemed, just going to leave her.

The Marines tried to stop them filming, but to their credit, the reporter, who was clearly in shock, said "you shot these people" and they carried on filming/reporting.

I tell you now - I saw the whole thing, and it was about as shocking as anything I have ever seen.
Needless to say, it was heavily caveated regarding the "disturbing and shocking" footage before they showed it.
Do you think this was the same incident?jesse1
Apr 11, 2003 3:14 AM
NASSIRIYA, Iraq (April 11) - U.S. Marines said they killed two children at a checkpoint in Iraq on Friday, when the driver of the vehicle in which the youngsters were traveling ignored warnings to stop, creating fears of a suicide attack.

Captain Jay Delarosa, spokesman for the 15th U.S. Marine Expeditionary Unit in the southern city of Nassiriya, said nine other people in the minivan were wounded in the incident.

"Our Marines took action to protect themselves against what they thought was a suicide bomber," Delarosa told Reuters correspondent Adrian Croft in Nassiriya, adding that the driver had ignored repeated warnings to stop.

"Currently, we are providing the best available medical assistance to those injured," he said, adding that no weapons had been found in the vehicle. "It was a regrettable mistake."

04/11/03 04:03 ET

Copyright 2003 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon. All active hyperlinks have been inserted by AOL.
NopeDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 3:22 AM
absolutley not the same.

Seems it's going on a quantity then.

Someone stop the world - I want to get off.
I think you are full of it -plain and simpleLive Steam
Apr 11, 2003 4:56 AM
Until you can site a credible source it think this is a fabricated story at best and may be a terror tactic used by Saddam sympathizers. It is well reported that the Iraqi para-military have US uniforms and were planning on using them just for this type of propaganda. So if you want to "get off" go right ahead.
NopeAlpedhuez55
Apr 11, 2003 5:07 AM
You seem to be implying that Marines are shooting women and children without any provocation. Yes innocent lives have been taken. Nobody likes to see that. Women and children have been used as shields by Iraqi Troops. THey have armed children as well. Look at the 100 plus children who were released from a Prison for not joining Saddams "Lion Cubs" forces.

Any civilian loss is a tragedy. The Iraqiis are itentionally putting civilians in harms way to protect themselves.

How about posting a credibles source that will tell the story rather than imply the Marines are indescriminantly firing at women and children.

Mike Y.
You are truly a blight on society53T
Apr 11, 2003 5:08 AM
I just checked BBC and the UK national news sites including the damn Guardian. You are making this all up. If I find you I will punish you.
get off thenmohair_chair
Apr 11, 2003 6:43 AM
It's remarkable that you saw this, because no one, including the BBC and the Arab press, seems to know anything about this incident.

Are you sure you weren't watching a movie? Maybe that one with Sean Penn and Michael J. Fox?
You are a truly scary idiot. nmDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:09 AM
I think it's your stop; feel free to get off... nmDougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 7:09 AM
Are you by any chance.....jesse1
Apr 11, 2003 7:29 AM
.....associated with the Lyndon LaRouche orginization? I know from someone close to me who used to belong (but now has seen the light), that his orginization routinly use tactics like yours, and that for some reason, are never credible or proven.
Why don't youDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:36 AM
get out of your tiny little mad world, mail/speak to someone in the UK and ask them what they saw.

Christ you people are scary.
Did you see the post by 53T above?jesse1
Apr 11, 2003 7:46 AM
He did a search, as I did earlier today, and found nothing. How 'bout cluing us in on a British news site so we can be as enlightened.
Your not a troll are you? Here in West Virginia, the only difference between trolls & road kill is that the road kill is already dead when we eat it.
You really are a completeDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:52 AM
@sshole aren't you.

What's up - afraid of the truth you stupid, ignorant hick.

ASK A PERSON WHO SAW IT. Go on - see if you have the nerve.
I do have the nerve, but I need your help.jesse1
Apr 11, 2003 8:09 AM
Could you provide me with a name and a phone number of someone who witnessed this. Preferably at this channel 4 you speak of.
NoDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 8:13 AM
I don't know anyone at Channel 4 - I just watch the telly.

Get in touch with someone you know in the UK and ask them if they - or someone they know - saw this on TV last night at around 7:45- what else can I say?
Hey Doug...I thought insulting people was against the rulesKristin
Apr 11, 2003 1:57 PM
This guy has done nothing but make personal attacks since the day he appeared on RBR. Not that I think we should pull him. Its kinda fun to play with the stupid ones.
Channel 4...that's the best info you got?Kristin
Apr 11, 2003 1:52 PM
That's like saying I saw it on Channel 6. Means nothing. How about a reporters name? You should know who your "channel 4" anchors are unless yesterday was the first time you ever watched the news. I'd like to contact the station and see if we can get a copy of the footage. I'm sure the US stations--or at least one of them--would like to run the coverage over here.
Can you get UK news in Austrialia?Kristin
Apr 11, 2003 1:55 PM
I'm gonna contact a friend in Austrialia. Surely he would have seen it as well--being on national news and all.
It's available on channel 4 website - and not that dramatic (nmTJeanloz
Apr 11, 2003 2:14 PM
Not dramatic!? People were killed, no? (nm)czardonic
Apr 11, 2003 2:33 PM
I just watch 1/2 hour of brittish news from the site and sawKristin
Apr 11, 2003 2:36 PM
no video like the one being described.
Kristin, I had the same problem...jesse1
Apr 11, 2003 4:26 PM
...I think they change the video every so often depending on when the last airing of the news show was.
if this is the right clip....rufus
Apr 11, 2003 6:41 PM
it's on the left of the page under the "civilian casualties" report by lindsey hilsem. there's a link to click to watch her report. all i saw was a vw driving by, and then one of the reporters running down the alley toward another car, and then coming back with the girl in his arms. no actual shooting of the vehicle shown.
SuspiciousSteveS
Apr 11, 2003 5:06 AM
That is indeed a shocking and appalling story. Terrible.

One problem, I have looked through any number of news sites including the BBC and can't find anything close to your account. And remember, the BBC was kicked off the air of some of the British Navy this week for a pro-Saddamist slant to their news reporting.

So, all this makes me more than a bit suspicious of your horrorific report. It seems odd that this is not now all over any number of news media having been broadcast, according to you, on British TV.

However, in terms of getting off the world, you can make your way to the Netherlands and they have 'doctor assisted' techniques that readily assist you in your departure.

Until the rest of the news media begins reporting this your account of the Marines, maybe it should begin with the phrase "Once upon a time..."
Listen you frickkin idiotsDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 5:57 AM
This was on national TV in the UK last night. On Channel 4 News.

I saw it with my own eyes. Actually happening. Right there.

You can shove your heads up your asses as far as you like, it won't change the facts. It was broadcast to the whole friggin nation, for Christ's sakes, on the evening news.
need a sourceDougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 6:33 AM
While some might like to believe this, I would think this would be front page in every paper on the planet if true.

Here's the Channel 4 website. I can't find it. The only thing close is the car incident explained above.

http://www.channel4.com/news/index.html

Doug
I suspect that this is the stort Downhill is refering to.Live Steam
Apr 11, 2003 6:50 AM
Too bad he didn't pay attention to the details before posting.
How can I make this simple for you allDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:08 AM
IT-WAS-ON-THE-NATIONAL-TELEVISION-NEWS-LAST-NIGHT.
what were you smokin?DougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 7:11 AM
It's darn obvious you were looking at the story about the suspected car bombers being shot. Everyone here knows it. Give it up.

Now, come up with even one source, and you'll have some credibility. As of now, you have none.

Why so caustic, too?

Doug
Same as you a-hole - here's the report.Downhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:16 AM
http://www.channel4.co.uk/news/2003/04/week_2/10_hilsum.html
that's the same story, with some details left outDougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 7:23 AM
That's the same story about the suspected car bombing, conveniently omitting that part of it.

Doug
From someone who actually WATCHED it happenDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:27 AM
that has nothing to do with any car bomb whatsoever - hard fact - it had EVERYTHING to do with a bunch of trigger-happy troops on the loose.

You people make me sick. CHILDREN are being shot in cold blood and look at your attitude - it just stinks beyond what I would have thought possible in a civilised society.
either you're trolling or assuming too muchDougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 7:42 AM
No one here said what you describe is ok. Check it out. All anyone has said is that there was no source for what you describe, or that it really was the car bombing incident, which I still think it was. It's the same story reporting different key facts.

Keep in mind, though, that our military personnel have been killed by apparent civilians in suicide car bombings. They have to protect themselves, and in the heat of the moment, they have to make a life or death instantaneous judgment call. It's easy to armchair quarterback these things from the comfort and safety of your home, but I'd imagine you might see things very differently if you had been there.

No one here is supporting the killing of innocent civilians, but you seem to want to believe that to create a good rant.

Doug
You are wrong.Downhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:59 AM
1) People are clearly saying that the don't/won't believe it happened.

2) None of you saw it. What I'd give to sit you down and make you watch it, and then see what you had to say, and see the looks on your stupid, viscioius, brainwashed faces.

3) What happened was an outrage. You stupid idiots can fool yourself with your stupid conspiracy theory replies about me being everything from a troll to an agent from some foreign action movement or some such sh1t, but you can't change what I, and millions of other people saw on the TV last night. Yes, that's right - SAW HAPPEN.

4) What was shown was literally sickening. What is almost as hard to bare is the attitude from you people. God help the world and spare it from you and your like.
From someone who actually WATCHED it happenAlpedhuez55
Apr 11, 2003 8:17 AM
THis is from the report you linked:
"We heard periodic shots from the American snipers above, their warning to drivers to stop the car. But some people don't understand, and speed up. A blue Volkswagen passed, a few minutes later we realised the car which followed had been hit. The marines wouldn't cross into enemy territory, but our translator Mohammed Fatnan insisted on going to investigate."

It is obviously sounds like the same tragic incident of the car that ran a check point that you said it was not. Rather that say that you were not sure if that was the same incident, you chose to call everyone who qestioned you "Frikkin Idiots" and accuse the Marines of wide spread shooting of children. THere have been several suicide bombings, including one involving a pregnant woman used to get close to a soldiers. If someone runs a check point, the Marines will have to make a judgement call that there is hostile action. It was a tragedy that should have been avoided.

Nobody likes to see women, children or civilians killed in this war. Our attitude is by no means meant to belittle the tragedy of the civilians. Even ones like myself who support the troops and president are saddened when we see stories and images. The reaction is shown by posters was directed at you and your harsh rhetoric. You were trying to make a point. What you achieved in doing was making most people on the board take you a lot less seriously from here on out.

Mike Y.
Except you didn't see it did you?Downhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 8:20 AM
Shame on you. You pick reports that suit you case, and you attack people who tell you straight how it was - as close to an eye witness as you can get.

Shame on you.

Here on out - you got to be joking - it's a bunch of right-wing gun-loving nationalistic lunatics.
the reporter who WAS there....rufus
Apr 11, 2003 8:30 AM
is a better eye-witness than you, who saw a brief clip of film that may or may not have shown the entire incident and all that happened to invite such a response.

that reporter in her article said how the vehhicle the wounded iraqis were in refused to stop at the checkpoint, and so the marines, fearing it could perhaps be another suicide bomber, opened fire on it.

it's tragic, yes, but those things are going to happen. but i'd say the reporter who was actually at the site, and saw the whole thing happen with her own eyes, is much more capable to write about what she saw than you are, sitting on the couch watching it on the tv. read what she had to write about it.
esDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 9:23 AM
The whole thing was filmed, including her right through.

The car had no idea what the hell they were supposed to do - there was noone there who could speak their language, no signs in Arabic. The car slowed down. The marines started firing, the car didn't know what the hell is was supposed to do, and it actually drove away in panic. It was actually going AWAY when it was shot at.

You can try to slice this any way you want. I saw it. It was totally clear what happened. This wasn't some shoot-out in the front line. This was a back street. These people were wholly innocent, sh1t scared Iraqui people with their kids in the car. The Marines shot them. Unprovoked. End of story.

What do you say? Shoot everyone, including the women and children, till the Marines feel safe.

Jesus christ, listen to all of you. This is being done in your name.
That's not what I saw,TJeanloz
Apr 11, 2003 11:24 AM
I'd recommend taking another look; the video's available at the Channel4 website.

1) The car appeared to speed up before being shot at.

2) It had gone beyond the soldiers, was being fired at, and went in reverse back towards the soldiers while it was being fired at.

3) It wasn't at all "totally clear" what happened. It was, at most, a 15 second clip which required a lot of rewatching for me to begin to figure out what was going on.

So now, I saw it. The Marines shot them, reasonably provoked, given current conditions in Iraq.
are you nuts?mohair_chair
Apr 11, 2003 7:30 AM
Your post said you watched "a detachment of US Marines shooting women and children yesterday - including a 6 year old girl - in the head. Unarmed, in cold blood, on a backstreet in Baghdad."

That's what you got from this story? Your post says that packs of Marines are roving the streets of Baghdad shooting unarmed women and children. That is so different from the actual story, it can only be considered a bold faced lie.

I guess you see what you want to see, and hear what you want to hear.
Listen you madmanDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:37 AM
don't take my word for it - get on the web/phone someone you know in the UK and ask them what they saw happen.
Listen you freakmohair_chair
Apr 11, 2003 7:53 AM
YOU call them and ask them WHAT ELSE happened. You won't, because I don't think you care about the rest of the story. I read the article and found nothing new. I think I even saw the footage you are talking about.

I suggest you call them and ask them how many times over the past few weeks cars have come speeding towards Marines or soldiers. Ask them how many times those cars were looking to kill Marines or soldiers. Ask them how many Marines and soldiers have died or been injured. I believe 10 have died already, and I have no idea on injuries. So you better believe that a car speeding towards Marines or soldiers is going to be shot up, even if it contains women and children. Have you forgotten already about the three soldiers died when two women, one of them PREGNANT, blew up their car. Imagine that, women.

Perhaps you have forgotten, but this is war. Act in a threatening manner towards the guys with guns and you will probably get hurt. And you should. The Americans and British have every right to defend themselves against threats.

It's easy to look at a single incident of a car speeding towards Marines that gets shot up and say, my god, these people are animals. It's easy because it's brutal. It's easy because it was filmed. What wasn't filmed is the dozens if not hundreds of times this scene has been repeated all over Iraq, and how many American and British troops have died or been injured as a result.
Oh...mohair_chair
Apr 11, 2003 7:13 AM
IT-WAS-ON-THE-NATIONAL-TELEVISION-NEWS-LAST-NIGHT.
SO-IT-MUST-BE-TRUE.

Have you watched any Iraqi national television lately? Everything the information minister said was true.
You know whatDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:17 AM
I think I am beginning to see what a bunch of brain-washed war-mongering holes some of you lot are.
With RPGs and small arms fire all around...Brooks
Apr 11, 2003 7:47 AM
as reported by Channel 4, what in the *#@%$ are people doing driving around in a war zone? And the man who went out on his balcony, can you say stupid? Don't blame the Marines for shooting at vehicles speeding towards their position. Yes it's a terrible tragedy, but why don't these people stay indoors for a few days?
RightDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:50 AM
1) There was no fire anywhere near at the time of the incident (and even if there was it was obviously nothing to do with the people who were shot).

2) Noone was speeding anywhere. They were ordinary people who were frightened and confused - there was no arabic istructions given either orally or in writing to stop or do anything for that matter).

3) Are you mad? There whole place is in turmoil - 1/2 the population are just trying to get out of their with their lives - until they were ended by the Marines.
Wrong...Brooks
Apr 11, 2003 8:13 AM
1) Read the transcript! Yes there was fire going on and not just from the Marines.
2) Read the transcript, again! "Some don't understand and speed up".
3)No I'm not mad. But I sure wouldn't be out and about in a war zone. Stay indoors!
Here's the Channel 4 report (editted for brevity):
"No, we ain't seen nothing. We came in, been taking a lot of small arms and RPG fire right here and all around this place there's been a lot of small arms and RPG fire, but as far as inside we ain't seen nobody."

They said there had been shooting from the mosque opposite, now pockmarked with return fire. Fanatical fighters from other Arab countries are said to be the hold-outs, rather than Iraqis.

We heard periodic shots from the American snipers above, their warning to drivers to stop the car. But some people don't understand, and speed up. A blue Volkswagen passed, a few minutes later we realised the car which followed had been hit. The marines wouldn't cross into enemy territory, but our translator Mohammed Fatnan insisted on going to investigate.

There wasn't much left of the luxurious dwelling built at the height of Saddam Hussein's powers in the late 1980s. The marines were still searching for potential threats. They said 38 of their number had been injured in the morning's fighting.

Suddenly, a rocket propelled grenade. Inevitably, the snipers on the roof returned fire. Those shots hit people although they hadn't fired the RPG. They'd been in a van along the road. The driver was killed, the car careered out of control.
Let me explainDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 8:17 AM
I actually saw this.

WTF can't you get about that? F your transcript - it was there, filmed and shown to the nation on TV - everyone could see what the hell happened - it was a plain as day.

Enemy territory my backside - it was the other side of an ordinary st that the Marines was standing in.
I never said you didn't watch it. But...Brooks
Apr 11, 2003 8:43 AM
how many times have you watched the tape? Once? What else was going on around you as you watched it? No other distractions? You were poised with pen and paper to write down everything you saw exactly as it happened? What color was the car the girl was in? What time of day? Sun angle/shadows? How many people were around? How many Marines? How many cars? How many shots were fired? From how many different people? You have an impression of an event that you only saw on tape without seeing the greater context of the surrounding area. Eyewitnesses to the exact same incident have varying degrees of accurancy in the recounting.

And, yes, enemy territory is anything not within the control of the Marines. So even the other side of the street can be enemy territory. People on foot or driving towards a Marine position located in the middle of hostile territory will be treated with utmost caution and sometimes met with deadly force. What don't the civilians understand about that? What don't you get about that? You didn't respond to the apparent (to the newscaster) fact that hostile fire was continuing, including an RPG going off. So it is understandable that the Marines are jumpy.
You gave the game awayDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 9:14 AM
With your definition of enemy territory, which translates to civilian houses.

That sums it up - the innocent civilians are the enemy of the Marines. Shame only one party's doing the killing.

I'll tell you what the civilians don't understand about that - everything. Some foreign force bombs the city to hell and back, takes over the streets with guns, the whole place goes mad, looting is rife, the hospitals are overflowing. They get in their cars, go round a corner, and they get their car filled with bullets and their children shot.

You bet they don't understand it.
I wonder if the Kurds understood getting gassed? nmDougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 9:18 AM
That's right.Brooks
Apr 11, 2003 9:38 AM
All buildings and individuals UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE are to be treated as hostile. This is war, you moron! The Iraqis who make military compounds of mosques, hospitals, schools and fire from any building, soldiers who shed their uniforms and wear civilian clothes and still fire at the Marines brought this upon their country. Can you tell a suicide bomber from an "innocent civilian" in two seconds as he/she approached? In a car? Would you stake your life on it? The Marines have to. And they are not indiscriminately taking out civilians. The US could have carpet-bombed Baghdad to "hell and back" without any loss of life on the US's part, but instead chose to operate in the much more dangerous theatre of urban warfare.

If a foreign force takes over the streets with guns, I sure as heck don't jump into car and go exploring. That is just stupid! You also don't seem to understand the concept of war. People die! Innocents die! That's a tragic fact. But an individual can minimize the risk to their own personal safety by not getting in the way of the people with guns.

I notice your total lack of response to my questions about watching the video and being an "eyewitness".
Yesterday you said you were Aussie, now UK?Captain Morgan
Apr 11, 2003 6:52 AM
Which is it, mate?
Listen, BrainsDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:06 AM
We are allowed to travel you know.
OICCaptain Morgan
Apr 11, 2003 7:13 AM
Just trying to call your bluff, but your post did appear to be somewhat trollish.
NoDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 7:24 AM
there just seem to be a "I am not going to belive that our troops have done anything wrong" attitude from a worryingly large number of people of this board.

Thank Christ there are a few sane voices (mainly from those who have actually been to war/been in the military) to give the rest of the world out here a glimmer of hope.

Some of you need to take a long look at yourself with some honesty.

I was wondering why there are so few foreign voices on this board, given the global appeal of cycling. I can see why now - it seems to be populated mainly by half-mad zenophobic killing fans.

Sorry to hang that on your post, but someone needed to say it.

I think I'll just go back to the sane world and cross the US off my list of places to go a try to speak the truth freely.

And guys, to save you the bother of all the "you're not welcome anyway" etc posts - I'll just take that as read.

Sorry to the normal folks - you're just too heavily outnumbered.
There is a difference betweenCaptain Morgan
Apr 11, 2003 7:42 AM
denying something and wanting to know the truth.

Don't you think its weird that, if something is on prime time TV in the UK, and it is such a big story, there wouldn't be some type of written news story backing it up? For heaven's sake, al Jazeera alone would be broadcasting it 24/7. This is not denial. We like to see evidence before something is believed as factual.
Misguided concepts of war...TJeanloz
Apr 11, 2003 7:43 AM
I think people are more offended that anybody in the world exists who believes that a war can be conducted in an urban area without the unfortunate loss of civilian life, including children. All credible accounts of this incident varied substantially from what you thought you saw, and all credible accounts show an incident that is the unfortunate outcome of urban warfare. If you want a more horrifying account, read the accounts of Mogudishu, where the Marines talk about shooting anybody who stood in their way (granted, many standing in their way were armed). War is ugly, it is brutal, it is terrifying, and this is it. Everybody in the world wishes that it didn't have to be this way, but these are the costs of war.
chillMJ
Apr 11, 2003 7:47 AM
there are plenty of foreign posters and normal people who are on the board - there's also alot of left leaning and right leaning folks on the board - some are louder than others - there are some rather worrying opinions which get expressed here - but:

my experience of most of the people who have chimed in so far on this thread is that while I may disagree with them frequently/often/always they aren't trolls (though they may flame) - alot of them are also rather well informed (considering they're mostly US based) even though they often conclude the exact opposite after reading the same press...

the point of this is - without a link/article to demonstrate or prove what you saw on the Channel 4 News last night it will not be believed by anyone - put yourself in their shoes - if someone makes a claim regarding extreme criminal behaviour in these circumnstances it must be verified before anyone can comment or even believe it - while you may have seen what you saw (and no one here is in a position to deny that) you can understand other people won't accept it as fact without evidence - an anonymous poster on an internet forum is not a source regardless of where he claims to have seen something

FWIW - I didn't see anything like that on the news last night - but I watched BBC1 (and ashamedly saw updates on Channel 5 - you wanna get pissed off at the US watch the Patriot!) - not denying your observation skills but it seems something like that would make other media sources

are you an Aussie in London? two year work break? what's your ride? I'm riding offroad in Surrey tomorrow with Eager Beagle you're welcome to come along - leaving Waterloo about 11:30am
PleaseDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 8:06 AM
then ask around you and find someone else who saw this on C4 last night and tell these people what's what.

I'm in Earl's Court, but I only have a shabby hybrid commuter I have on loan - it would fall apart if it hit a drain.
I'll have a look and ask aroundMJ
Apr 11, 2003 8:35 AM
but I don't know many people who would be terribly surprised at seeing that (war is nasty) and it may therefore not stick in their head

tha fact is that most war news is very censored - the public don't want to see what really happens - (they want to watch The Dambusters - the most difficult documentary I ever saw was a war documentary from Sierra Leone - Eco-Mog troops, rebels, child soldiers, chopping limbs off, rapes, beatings and shootings do not make for high ratings anywhere - the truth? you can't handle the truth!

the truth is also being ignored by the war in Congo which has resulted in 4m dead in the past year

you gotta know that even if I saw it I wouldn't post without a link - otherwise I'd just get called names like you
Ok, you say it was, so it must be trueKristin
Apr 11, 2003 2:01 PM
I mean, why wouldn't I believe a total stranger who appears suddenly online and seems to have plenty of freetime to throw around insults. Yes, I totally believe you. You don't need to give my any proof at all. I mean you're an Austriilian guy with a french name who gets the Brittish evening news for crissakes!!!! You must be credible. I'm calling my congressman.
Boy, it's like we were at war or something....cory
Apr 11, 2003 6:04 AM
I know this board is populated largely by hawks, but it's worth mentioning that this is what happens in war. It's one of the reasons I was, and am, opposed to going in there until we'd exhausted every other possibility. I spent a year of my life doing that, and nobody should ever have to do it, or see it, again.
I just tracked down the IP for "Downhill deux mille"DougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 7:50 AM
The IP is actually originating from Tikrit, Iraq, and registered to someone named "Al-Sahaf." In a different forum, he explained in Arabic that since he could no longer have access to television, as some "routine maintenance" is being done at the television station, he is posting on every web forum he can find.

Doug
Come on you are pulling our leg, right? nmLive Steam
Apr 11, 2003 7:53 AM
;-) nmDougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 7:53 AM
I guess we all got suckered into thisLive Steam
Apr 11, 2003 7:57 AM
obvious troll from a jeuvenile.

"What's up - afraid of the truth you stupid, ignorant hick."

These are not the words of an adult from any country, much less Australia or the UK. Let's move on!
So the answer is clear "yes" then - says it all. nmDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 8:03 AM
Awsome job Doug!jesse1
Apr 11, 2003 7:58 AM
I vote that we double your salary - effective today! :)
Yeah funny. Dead children - really funny. You - cretin. nmDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 8:01 AM
if anyone doubted...DougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 8:43 AM
I'd misuse my "delete" key, I think you must be reassured after this.

Doug
actually, I said that wrong, didn't I? nmDougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 8:44 AM
Too rightDownhill deux mille
Apr 11, 2003 9:27 AM
What were you doing to do - delete your "funny" post? Your hilarious joke about the war. The killing and maiming of god knows how many men women and children? The slaugher of god knows how many innocent lives? Yeah, really funny - the world really thinks you are soooo witty.

Take an honest look at yourself and ask if you have the right to use a delete key on anyone else's opinon.
confusedDougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 9:31 AM
I was not making fun of the war. I was making fun of your posts. Not the same.

Calling someone names here actually does deserve the delete key.

Doug
That's right, and if you or anyone elseOldEdScott
Apr 11, 2003 9:48 AM
dares resort to namecalling me 'liberal' (whoops, I mean 'the L word')on this board again, I hope that delete key gets quick action! :-{
so, that's an insult to you? :-) nmDougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 9:51 AM
Is your name FRED?jaybird
Apr 11, 2003 9:27 AM
Thanks for your oh so eloquent responses to the above queries. You certainly changed my opinions...
Welcome to the board; here's a photo to ponder.sn69
Apr 11, 2003 10:28 AM
Downhill,

Sometimes it's no fun when people question your sincerity, honesty or intentions. BUT, it is easy for people to do that when you immediately resort to name calling and belittling those who doubt your assertations.

Right or wrong, there's a certain sense of legitimacy afforded by this board to people who post with regularity or, at the very least, with some modicum of tollerance. We have a lot of differin opinions here, as you'll no doubt notice.

Thus, if you've got credible source references for this story, please share them. A link to the television station's website would be great. I, for one, didn't see anything about this on BBC last night.

In the meantime, I'll present you with this photo, taken from MSNBC's website. This is a photo of a hospital corpsman (Navy, assigned to a Fleet Marine Force combat unit) who just delivered an Iraqi baby. Perhaps you'd do well to learn a bit about the Marines (and Sailors, Soldiers and Airmen) who you seem to be so quick to condemn.

Scott
amen; nmDougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 11:27 AM
Hey now, no religious references here ;O)Live Steam
Apr 11, 2003 11:49 AM
please forgive me nmDougSloan
Apr 11, 2003 1:18 PM
your transgression has been absolved. go in peace:O)Live Steam
Apr 11, 2003 1:37 PM
NEWSFLASH -- THE VIDEO IS AVAILABLE ONLINETJeanloz
Apr 11, 2003 10:36 AM
http://www.channel4.com/news/

Link on the right to "Latest Show Video"

The events begin to transpire at ~3:45 into the 55 minute segment. The Volkswagon shooting occurs at appx 4:15.

See what Downhill saw; judge for yourself.

From my perspective (and yes, now I have SEEN it), there isn't enough footage to tell what is really going on. You see a car speeding towards what may be a checkpoint. Then you see it speed back to an alleyway. This also appears to be a big street; not some back alley. The TV reporter goes, Geraldo-style, to see what is going on with the car. They report that the Marines are reluctant to get close. The Marines provide medical help to the girl brought back by the reporter. This wasn't "plain murder" in my book.

What did I miss?
It wasn't in the clip I just watched. nmKristin
Apr 11, 2003 3:37 PM