|Jews and hatred||Woof the dog|
Feb 23, 2003 11:40 AM
|Why do some people dislike Jews?
Don't get me wrong, I do not hate or judge based on ethnicity/race/etc., and I have friends who are jewish and are really great people. Although I do not like this "we are the chosen people of god" stuff, and I notice that some jews seem to put themselves up a notch in certain respects. Its like "we are jewish, we don't celebrate that..." Does it really matter what ethnicity you are?
Woof the dog.
|re: Jews and hatred||Jon Billheimer|
Feb 23, 2003 11:56 AM
|Although I've had anti-Semitism explained to me by Jewish friends and as a child had the Biblical nonsense crammed down my throat, personally it has just never resonated with me. I really don't get it.|
|re: Jews and hatred||sn69|
Feb 23, 2003 12:24 PM
I'm Jewish, as I've stated before. I never bought off on the "chosen people" crap either with the exception of jokes with my friends. In fact, nowhere in modern American Reformed or Conservatist Judaism is it stated that Judaism is the only religion; rather, we are taught to celebrate diversity among religions, ethnicities, and such. That said, there are fringe elements, particularly with the more fanatical denominations of Orthodox Judaism that believe in exclusionary, often bigotted ideals. Then again, you'll find the same fringe groups in any religion.
Regarding "we're Jewish and we don't celebrate ____," well...we're Jewish. I wouldn't ask a Christian to celebrate the High Holidays or a Hindu to celebrate Passover. There are some so-called social crusaders, however, who seek to minimize and/or mitigate just about any cause or reason to celebrate on the basis of a presupposed sense of social awareness. Frankly, I enjoy X-mas lights and I like the holiday season. I don't particularly like manger scenes in government places, but I don't get bent out of shape about it either. I figure the payoff is a day to two off from work each year for the holidays I choose to celebrate.
Moreover, I think it's an automatic assumption on the part of a great many people that all Jews are fervent supporters of the government of Israel. That's simply not true. American Jews are no more Israeli than American Catholics are all Italian. (Granted...a simplification, but I think you get the point.) The caveat to that, however, is that we tend to be a bit overly-sensitive--as has been gently pointed out to me on this board before--but I'm not sure that isn't warranted given our "challanged" history over the past 100 years alone.
The bottom line is that any ethnicity can claim some sort of hurt, wrong or social misdeed done to them, from the German Americans of Chicago to the Irish Americans of New York to the Chinese Americans of San Fransico to the entirety of our nation's African American population to the native peoples of this land. The key, I think, is learning from the past and using it to help make better the present and the future.
And, shifting hats back to my military "defender of the replubic" persona...NO, it does not matter what ethnicity, sex, sexual orientation, color, creed, WHATEVER you are. America is for all of us.
|You bring up an interesting point||carnageasada|
Feb 23, 2003 1:26 PM
|I think what makes America great is its diversity but it's exactly that same diversity which leads to so much strife.|
|So why'd the subject come up? (nm)||Spoke Wrench|
Feb 23, 2003 12:39 PM
|So why'd the subject come up? (nm)||Woof the dog|
Feb 23, 2003 1:04 PM
|Certain group of people that I know, a lot of them don't even know each other well at all (not a close-knit group by any means), they all have some kind of common mentality on the subject. They are uhm... bitter about jews being:
"better off anywhere in the world. jews are smart and rich, bankers, lawyers, doctors, etc. Jews are described as devious and selfish. Jews stand atop a social ladder at the expense of others. They also keep to themselves quite a lot than other groups of people, they think they are smarter, etc. They may not use the "people of god" argument anymore, but they justify the inequality by saying that there are smart people who simply belong up top and there are stupid people who do not have what it takes, and thus should be at the bottom (this one I've heard myself during a one-on-one conversation with a jewish person). Then there is something about jews fleeing to a better place (usa?) whenever there is an uprising against the jews, such as germany and russia. That is seen as cowardly and selfish. Then there is a whole change-a-name thing in order to get rid of the stigma of being a Jew. Jews think they are the greatest but at the same time the most miserable people in the world because they have been blamed and pushed around quite a bit in different countries." The list goes on.
I may agree with some of their views and some other stuff I disagree on. I can also see some truth in the fact that this country supports Israel, and in the fact that overall, this country is the richest in the world. Hell, the other day i heard someone on some kind of comedy show crack a joke on how sinagogues are rich. It is a very touchy issue, and I am trying to be open to as many opinions as possible... for the truth is somewhere in between.
woof the dog.
|Let's take it one piece at a time, then:||sn69|
Feb 23, 2003 1:56 PM
|1. Smart, rich, professional and so on.... Education is a basic sacriment of the religion, with the exception of the fringe fundamentalists (Lubovitch, etc). Education is often a basic foundation of financial and professional success. Duh.
2. Stand atop the social ladder at the expense of others. What? Last time I checked, America's self-appointed aristocracy, namely the Kennedys,the Vanderbilts, the Hursts, the Carnegies, the Rockefellers, the Morgans, etc ("and the Colonel with his wee-beedy eyes")are not Jewish. Furthermore, if anyone benefitted at the expense of others during America's heyday of the industrial revolution, it was most certainly the Robber Barrons. What I will concede is that a great many executives within the entertainment industry are Jewish. I credit that to urban relocation from the East Coast ports of entry and (where would you rather live--Skokie or LA?!) to reason number 1.
3. Smart people/stupid people. The person you were conversing with is an a@@hole, plain and simple. That's a quality that seems to transcend all religions, races and sex, dontchathik?! The only people who "belong" on top are those who work their a@@es off and earn it, regardless of any religious, social or racial affiliation/designation.
4. Fleeing to a better place?!?!?! If that is taken as true, then all of us with the exception of Native Americans are dip-sh@ts. We all came here for various reasons--at least those who didn't come in the horrid belly of slave ships. Jews emmigrated for largely the same reasons as the Irish, the Germans, the Russian, the Italians, and so many other European groups. Mostly, they were seeking economic opportunity in the only country of the Industrial Revolution where one didn't have to be nobility in order to succeed. ...That and the Czar and the Kaiser had this annoying habit of rounding Jews, Kulaks, Gypsies and other ethnic minorities of 19th Century Europe up AND KILLING THEM. Boy, if it's opportunistic to flee that, then please consider me such.
5. Cowardly ans selfish. In spite of all that, I still had a great, great uncle who fought in WW1 for the Austrain Emperor. I have a great grandfather who was in the horse infantry under 1stLT Patton, my father and my uncle served in the Army and the Air Force, and I'm in the Navy. ...And that's NOT atypical. I've yet to meet a great many Buddists in the military, yet I don't consider them fundamentally cowardly.
6. Change the name thing. Re-read your history about the major ports of entry during the industrial revoltion through the 1930s. Names were changed for almost everybody by the immigration officers. The immigrants didn't have a choice.
7. Great but miserable. Dunno about that one, nor about the context in which it was spoken. I don't know any large body of fellow American Jews who think themselves particlarly better than anyone else. Nor do I know many if any who wallow in the transgressions of the past...with the sole exception of the standard of "never again." That, incidentally, can just as equally apply to any subjugated or oppressed people. Try being a Native American some time.....
Woof, I think the point isn't as much as the truth lies in the middle as much as common sense needs to be applied. There are some Jews who think of themselves as something special. There are also Black Panthers who preach about the White Devils, the Klan who hate everyone, the Earth-Firsters who murder in the name of environmental awareness, the Right To Lifers who murder in the name of God, Al Quaeda, the Skinheads, the Moral Majority, and so on and so forth. There will be whackos in any group, no matter what. How hard is that to figure out?
Lest I get misunderstood, I'm not sitting here arguing that Jews rate any sort of special dispensation or should be regarded in any way different from the rest of this country's citizens. People are, well..., people (please forgive the crappy Dep
|Let's take it one piece at a time, then:||sn69|
Feb 23, 2003 1:57 PM
|Lest I get misunderstood, I'm not sitting here arguing that Jews rate any sort of special dispensation or should be regarded in any way different from the rest of this country's citizens. People are, well..., people (please forgive the crappy Depressed Mode allusion); they should be judged on the merit of their actions, not on the presupositions of others.
|Let's take it one piece at a time, then:||Woof the dog|
Feb 23, 2003 3:00 PM
|I agree with what you are saying. People are people would be our most laconic answer. Those aforementioned, though, say that its not just an education that differentiates jews from others, but basically their heritage/genes. You can't simply wave off such a possibility!?
The shortest anecdote: "A jewish worker"
Woof the dog.
|I can wave it off quite simply, Woof.||sn69|
Feb 23, 2003 3:19 PM
|Religion doesn't degine one's genetic code. Ethnicity inasmuch as one's anscestral/regional heritage does. For example, Judaism is a religion founded in the Med/Mesepotamian region of SE Asia. Does that genetically define my distinctiveness 2000 years and however many generations later? No, but I bear a striking resemblance to most Austrians, Latvians and Lithuanians. That, not surprisingly, is where the majority of my family comes from, thus those traits genetically common to the Baltic are what physically distinguish me as a human-critter-thingy. If the Med/Meso link was still true, this many years later, than Christians would trace their roots similarly. See?
There's an aspect of this that is purely symantical and predicated on one's individual definitions and paradigms. There are those who would argue that culture, ethnicity and religion are distinctive and exclusive unto themselves. Thus, the logic would dictate that I am not a caucasian male, but rather a Jew. What would the result be if I converted? How about 25 generations of Scott's later assuming noone had re-converted. Clear as mud, right? Thus the concept of individual definition. Heritage, practice/activity, wholesale adherence to beliefs...it all factors in and only muddies the solution. Is somebody who has pre-marital sex and uses a condom TRULY Catholic? Can a Hindu who eats the occassional steak REALLY be Hindu? Symantics....
Here are some counter annecdotes: "An Irish fireman." "An Italian chef." "A Chinese launderer."
It's a multi-facited issue, methinks....
|I can wave it off quite simply, Woof.||Woof the dog|
Feb 23, 2003 3:32 PM
|I see your point!
thanx for writing
woof the dog.
Feb 23, 2003 3:40 PM
|Like Steve posted last week...open dialog is what's great about our Society.
|Uh, you forgot one...||hycobob|
Feb 24, 2003 7:42 PM
|The pro-choicers who murder in the name of a lower/debace morality.......just to keep your quite good rebutal fair.
Oh yeah, thanks Mom
|What a crock!||Spoke Wrench|
Feb 23, 2003 3:42 PM
|That's a variation of the argument bigots always use.
They define a group of people as being or acting a certain way with no objective proof what-so-ever that it's true. Then they use that definition to show they are evil or inferior in some way.
Some people still actually fall for it.
|?||Woof the dog|
Feb 23, 2003 7:38 PM
|I am not sure how this pertains to my message.
Woof the cat.
|Oh my goodness, Woof.||Spoke Wrench|
Feb 24, 2003 5:50 AM
|Buried in your paragraph are statements like "devious and selfish" and "stand atop the social ladder at the expense of others" Those are biggoted statements.|
|Oh my goodness, Woof.||Woof the dog|
Feb 24, 2003 6:25 PM
|I would stay away from big words like that, SW. For certain reasons I cannot write the whole story, and just to make sure you feel all better, I'm gonna tell you that the people in question do not hate jews, they do not act out upon such views, they understand and put themselves above all this. We all understand we are human beings. But the fact stays the same that in their life-long (and that is over half a century,plus) experience they have observed how certain types of people behave and they trust their instincts. They take into account all of their dealings with jews, whether in this country or others (all are well traveled and often speak three different languages or more), their history, who/where/what, etc.
I cannot say whether they are right or not, and listening to you and them makes me think, but I cannot discount neither point of view simply. In this country, with all this cultural mingling going on, yes, maybe you are right about jews. In other countries the situation may be different and those same groups like here behave differently. Were you there? Have you seen what these people have seen? For example, have you seen hunger? Did you ever weigh half the normal weight for your age group, for christ sake? Its easy for you to believe in ideals of constitution and democracy and base your whole life, your whole morality on that. Don't be stupid and say 'nah, their life's worth of observation means nothing.'
|Again with a comment first about symantics....||sn69|
Feb 24, 2003 6:59 PM
|I wonder if the presumption isn't that any group of people is static throughout history.
Using your example, can we use Holocaust suvivors to define the behavioral, sociological and cultural beliefs of all Jews today? Even if we can--which I don't believe--are all survivors the same? Probably not...in both cases.
For example, I recently watched a Frontline chronicaling the Killing Fields of the Khmer Rouge (it was VERY disturbing). What was utterly horrifying and yet fascinating from the standpoint of human behavior, however, was the amout of young Cambodians interviewed who doubted the significance of the KM's wholesale slaughter of that nation's people. "Wow" doesn't cut it. I was flabbergasted.
The point the show's producers were subtly making was that cultures, at their various levels, can and often do change with time.
That said, I think I understand how Holocaust survivors might have an "us versus everyone else" mentality. Those people--along with folks who have also weathered the worst of human behavior--have seen the darkest of mankind's darkest, cruelest side, and I suspect that only the absolute strongest could come away from that with a renewed sense of altruistic human compassion.
My exeperience, incidentally, is first hand. The grandmother of one of my closest friends survived the Holocaust in one of the death camps (Treblinka, Spandau or Aushwitz...I'm ashamed to admit that I can't remember which). She and I spoke for quite a while at my friend's wedding two years ago. Specifically, she and I talked of the sad, tragic state of affairs in the Middle East and of her immense ability to continue to love in spite of what she suffered (the only survivor of her family, complete with a forearm tatoo). She knew that I was Jewish and that I was close with the German Navy pilot in my squadron. I hesistated, wondering what she'd have to say about that. Her comment was "good," adding that humans MUST forgive and overcome the transgressions of past generations.
Wow...I can only hope to aspire to her level of humanity....
Feb 24, 2003 8:03 PM
|Forgiveness is the process people must go through in order to bring their lives up to date. Considering all she has experienced and lost, perhaps the ability to forgive came easier to her than it would for somebody who suffered from what could be considered to be far less substantial trangressions. Because to wallow in the horror she lived would be to waste the gift of life she was given, a gift she knows was denied to the many others she knew who didn't make it.
As I discussed in the other thread about the girl whose boyfriend is fading away from her, it's all about living in the present. We all exist - not in the past, but in the present. Forgiveness releases us from our past so we can exist in the present, the only place where we can be in control of our destinys.
|Is this the Nazi biker forum?||hycobob|
Feb 24, 2003 8:38 PM
|I was beginning to get confused...(non-bike = hate speak)? Your responces were truely compelling, but it seems that some people will justify their biggotry at length. WTD should switch over to the History Channel occationaly instead of MTV & Fear Factor. HC isn't as good as actually conversing with WWII veterans and Holocaust survivors, but pictures, as they should say, are not always worth a 1000 words. Too bad we have to grow old and die...life would be so much simpler if we were born old and wise, then grew young. This picture was taken 4 years before a well know fellow was voted Time's "Man of the Year". Could all of those people have been wrong...I'll bet some were even over 50 years old?
This was a few years later, I wish our boys had gone over a bit sooner. I hold by that today too...
Feb 23, 2003 1:58 PM
|People look for somebody that is different enough from them to look down upon. Blacks have traditionally been the easiest to do this to (being the more obvious minority), as have been gypsies, gays, irish, italians, etc...
Add to that the general prosperity among many american jews, and you have a group of people which are virtually guaranteed to be despised by the losers of our society.
Notice, too, that this is applicable to road cyclists. We make ourselves appear to be significantly different, at least on the surface (shorts, jerseys, etc.). Perhaps the reasons why so many cretins shout/hurl at/run over us on the roads is because they are looking for an obvious scapegoat?
|re: Jews and hatred||Duane Gran|
Feb 23, 2003 4:06 PM
|I think we make judgements, and race/ethnicity is just one of many factors. What we do with that judgement is another matter. I don't understand people who choose to hate, and I think most thoughful people eventually concede the logical fallacy of assigning blame on an individual (or group of individuals) to a whole class of people.
In America it is particularly a muddy issue. The perception is that Jews are more successful and that they take care of their own (not necessarily at the exclusion of others), which is probably a fair statement. Personally I don't see a problem with that, but I think some people are envious of their success. It is considerably easier to lob criticism than to improve one's position in life.
|Best way to find a friend is find a common enemy -nm||Captain Morgan|
Feb 24, 2003 8:14 AM