|Is our fate pre-determined? (kinda heavy)...||rwbadley|
Feb 13, 2003 7:02 AM
|Do you believe in fate or destiny? If so, is it more like a:
A. Railroad line, with a definite endpoint and little ability to change that endpoint...
B. Hot air balloon, with currents and altitude having an effect on where the final exact destination may be, but the general result still being up to the prevailing wind flow...
C. Auto travel, with our destination controlled by our actions and able to be changed to suit our desires and needs...
How does the prophesies of the Bible, Nostradamus etc. fit into all this? Is this just coincidence there seems to be any similarity to some of these works from so long ago?
I remember years ago when talk of WWIII occurred it always seemed to me that it was used in a context of being a 'Final War', not just 'another war'.
Are we on a runaway train?
Feb 13, 2003 7:58 AM
|You get out what you put into it but unfortunately a car could kill you at any moment.|
|I do not believe||mohair_chair|
Feb 13, 2003 8:15 AM
|If life were truly ruled by predestination, it's time to quit my job and stop paying my bills. Why should I if my destiny will occur anyway? If my own fate is not within my own hands, what's the point of living? I don't want to be a pawn on the chessboard. I don't want to be a toy for the gods to play with and discard when something more interesting comes along.|
|I do not believe||rwbadley|
Feb 13, 2003 11:38 AM
|"If my own fate is not within my own hands, what's the point of living? I don't want to be a pawn on the chessboard. I don't want to be a toy for the gods to play with and discard when something more interesting comes along."
Looking at history we can see many examples of persons not being in control of their destiny.
We see it on a larger scale also.
Our town was recently pushed into a large and expensive project that was against the wishes of the general population. Once the wheels were set in motion, the head Bozo involved (our Mayor) spent about thirty seconds in town before dancing off to a cushy new job out of state.
A Clown decided our fate on this matter.
See any similarity to current world events? (pick your choice of Clown)
|not the same thing||mohair_chair|
Feb 13, 2003 1:24 PM
|There's a difference between not having control over your destiny and allowing yourself to be screwed over. I think a lot of people mistake one for the other, including me sometimes. If this large and expensive project really is against the wishes of the general population, there must be a way to cancel it. You can try to wish it into the corfield, but it only becomes your fate if you do nothing.
I do not believe in destiny. It's not enough to think happy thoughts. I heard some guy the other day on talk radio that said the only way to stop the war is for us all to go down to church and pray, and I thought, what a naive fool. As if God were sitting up there drumming his fingers on the table waiting for us to call upon him to intervene. Come on guys, I'm waiting! Not enough of you are praying! I hear this guy and I think, even Jesus physically tossed the money changers out of the temple! He didn't go and pray for them to leave! I hear this guy and I think, you have to stand for something or you are just taking up space.
Life is about choices. When faced with a situation, you take your best shot and hope for the best. You may not get it. People who are successful in life are those who are face challenges head on, try to make the best choice, but are prepared to handle the worst.
|Better question. Why would you believe in it in the first place||eyebob|
Feb 13, 2003 9:34 AM
|against my better judgement i kinda believe in fate||ColnagoFE|
Feb 13, 2003 9:38 AM
|there is no reason to think so other than that my life has taken some pretty strange twists and turns to end up where i am now. sometimes things seem too strange to be pure chance, but there is absolutely no rational basis to believe fate is a real thing. i think that fate protects us from the possible reality that the universe is chaos and nothing means anything in the whole scope of things.|
Feb 13, 2003 10:06 AM
|Regarding your "possible reality" it seems to me that there really are only two possibilities. (Speaking in general terms, that is).
If God doesn't exist, then nothing matters.
If God does exist, then nothing ELSE matters.
I think you know where I stand on that.
As for pre-destination and prophecy, just because an all-knowing God knows what is going to happen that doesn't mean that we don't have complete control over our own actions. That also doesn't mean that he doesn't have control over what happens TO us. Our finite minds may not be able to comprehend that in this life, but what we think doesn't affect what actually is...
|i suppose it depends on how you define "god"||ColnagoFE|
Feb 13, 2003 10:38 AM
|i don't believe god has to exist in order for there to be some sort of "master plan" for the universe or for there to be meaning. it might just be something beyond our comprehension--i suppose you could define that as god if you wished. if god does not exist then we have our lives to live as we see fit. not much in the whole scope of the universe, but it may be all we have.|
|But God'll still punish you even if you do what he know's you're||eyebob|
Feb 13, 2003 11:33 AM
|going to do?
(I love playing devil's advocate with this stuff)
|the way that is explained||ColnagoFE|
Feb 13, 2003 12:34 PM
|is that god gives you free will to make your own choices. but yes it is a paradox. i also have always thought that any god who would damn one of his creation to an everlasting life in hell for the "sin" of not believing in him must not be all that powerful, or must be really mean.|
|not a paradox in my book||Woof the dog|
Feb 13, 2003 7:38 PM
|you are a typical westerner who views God as being separate. Is it really so? I cannot say, but in my opinion, God is you, me and everyone else. God is a capability to do 'good' that we act upon. To describe god any more would be useless.
Your idea of free will is rediculous. Just give me one example of your free will to make your own decisions? You make your own choices based on what you feel is right and appropriate. In the matters of life and death, such decisions are likely to be the same for everybody. Everything else is secondary. Does it really matter if your bike is green or blue in the grand scheme of things?
Everyone feels compassion for the suffering, love, etc. Do you feel it is right for a child to starve to death? Does the word 'morality' sound familiar? You use your best judgement to make your important choices in life. This 'best judgement' part is what I would consider of a higher nature. Yes, there are things like hatred and other bad stuff, but that generally happens because people are full of testosterone, want better life for themselves (nationalism), are mentally unstable, and haven't grown up yet. This is the idea behind enlightement. I think buddha said something like 'the biggest sin is being ignorant.'
So what would we call this commonality between us? Some bring it to the level of the unattainable, calling it God. After all, our feeling to do right guides us throughout life. Others reduce it to vulgar naturalism, but in reality they are just the same people with the same morals. The only people who know the truth are six feet under, really. So STOP TRYING TO PINPOINT THINGS LIKE FATE, God, immortality, etc. Definitions will vary according to the culture, but in the end explain the same thing.
woof the god.
|huh? typical westerner?||ColnagoFE|
Feb 14, 2003 6:41 AM
|why all the vitriol? i hardly think i was trying to pinpoint anything and the free will idea was not mine for the record. it's just a basic tenet of most brands of christianity. for the record i consider myself an agnostic and i don't claim to have any answers. what's wrong with discussing it though?|
|huh? typical westerner?||Woof the dog|
Feb 15, 2003 2:30 AM
|I am just sick of christianity as the only thing mentioned EVER.
|assumes linear temporal time... Not to sound too religious,...||jose_Tex_mex|
Feb 13, 2003 10:12 AM
|The whole pre-destination question is inextricably linked with time. Often, people will dispute the idea of an omnipotent God and free will citing them as being mutually exclusive, I do not.
What is time? Is there really a such thing? The past is a construct of our memory and the future, perhaps, a construct of our imagination. I often say there's only the present - the here and now. Unfortunately, the only reality in our "present" is the past. That is, light and sound waves already occurred. We cannot see the present - that would violate the whole "speed of light thing."
I do believe we have free will and that things are not predestined. However, I also believe that God can know the end result of my existence. The heart of this matter, IMHO, is whether you believe time is linear temporal - that is it flows in one direction only. Apparently, in our reality it is. However, I have studied Physics enough to realize I cannot prove this. Thus, I will not say they are mutually exclusive.
Could it be that time is flowing backwards and that we are only remembering events? Can God pick up a higher dimensional universe and look at the other end - using time as another dimension? Who knows?
I find it interesting that the Bible often puts God out of time. I believe time is a dimension which constrains humans, until the time of their death.
Remember what Jesus said - Before Moses was I am. How could Jesus speak in the present tense, for an event occurring prior to his birth on a linear temporal time scale? Even if you only look upon Jesus as a significant historical character you probably admit he always spoke the truth. If so, did he mispeak wrt Moses? I think not. If time is not linear temporal then Jesus' statement was true.
Anyhow, that's my five minute rant for the day.
Feb 13, 2003 10:42 AM
|Fate is just another superstition stemming from humanity's fear of the unknown. Like the belief in gods, it staves off the relization that we are insignificant and accidental in the grand scheme of a universe that we simply can not comprehend.
Frankly, if there was an all powerful and all knowing God, I'd hope he could slap together a better expression of his genuius than the human race. No offense though, some of my best friends are humans. . .
|Fate and insignificance||Captain Morgan|
Feb 13, 2003 11:23 AM
|I do not see fate as a method of providing significance for individuals. I see fate as a kind of "hindsight bias." After an event happens, humans tend to rationalize that they had more prior knowledge of the event than they really had. As such, fate seems to be more of a "supposed" pre-known condition.
Regarding your comments about God, if he slapped together a more perfect model for humans, there would be no such thing as liberals. No offense, though; some of my worst enemies are liberals...
|Absolutely not.||Woof the dog|
Feb 13, 2003 7:46 PM
|and some of mine are dogs|
|re: Its time thats moving...||jrm|
Feb 13, 2003 12:14 PM
|We are only her a short time for the ride..hey death happens. IMO there are a lot of things at play here some coincidence, some cyclic, some dialectic and some unknown. Modernity and Post Modernism struggle to prove that faith doenst exist because of the cyclic and dialectic aspects of time. I asa antagonist tend to agree. But then again i am a minority on that my ontology provides no closure or much of an explaination.|| |