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Which came first, the italian language or the latin language(20 posts)

Which came first, the italian language or the latin languageeyebob
Nov 14, 2002 10:59 AM
It was always my understanding that latin came first and if that's the case, how and why did italian come about? Was it a simple case of influx of influence from surrounding countries that added to the old to bring about the new? I hope that someone can answer this because I have always been curious why Italy (being the former super-power that it was during the Roman empire)would "adopt" a language. Did Latin just morph into Italian kind of like English has morphed into "American?"
Latin first...Wayne
Nov 14, 2002 11:11 AM
latin was the language of Rome and the empire. It is no longer a spoken language but was the written language of scholarship throughout the last 2000 years.
Yes languages "evolve" much like species, foriegn words get incorporated, common sayings come and go. Try to read some English from a 3 or 4 hundred years ago.
Latin gave rise to the Romance languages (Italian, Spanish, French, and some more that I can't think of) which is why they are so similar.
Beowulf, ChaucerColnagoFE
Nov 14, 2002 11:47 AM
Try reading Beowulf (olde english) in untranslated form...brutal and nearly unreadable. Chaucer which is considered middle english is a bit more readable but not by much. Kinda a fun challenge though. You can see how some of the words evolved into present day english.
try and read thisColnagoFE
Nov 14, 2002 11:49 AM
first stanza of beowulf in olde english

HWÆT, WE GAR-DEna in geardagum,
þeodcyninga þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon!
oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas, syððanærest wearð
feasceaft funden; he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum weorðmyndum þah,
oð þæt him æghwylc ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan; þæt wæs god cyning!
Ðæm eafera wæs æfter cenned
geong in geardum, þone God sende
folce to frofre; fyrenðearfe ongeat,
þe hie ær drugon aldorlease
lange hwile; him þæs Liffrea,
wuldres Wealdend woroldare forgeaf,
Beowulf wæs breme --- blæd wide sprang---
Scyldes eafera Scedelandum in.
Swa sceal geong guma gode gewyrcean,
fromum feohgiftumon fæder bearme,
and evolving into chaucer's canterbury talesColnagoFE
Nov 14, 2002 11:50 AM
much more readable, but still pretty hard to read:

1 Whan that Aprille with his shoures soot{e.}
2 The droghte of March hath perced to the root{e.},
3 And bathed every veyne in swich licóur
4 Of which vertú engendred is the flour;
5 Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
6 Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
7 The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
8 Hath in the Ram his halfe cours y-ronne,
9 And smale foweles maken melodye,
10 That slepen al the nyght with open ye,
11 So priketh hem Natúre in hir corages,
12 Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages,
13 And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes,
14 To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
15 And specially, from every shires ende
16 Of Engelond, to Caunterbury they wende,
17 The hooly blisful martir for to seke,
18 That hem hath holpen whan that they were seeke.
typo - meodosetla should be meadosetlaPdxMark
Nov 14, 2002 5:30 PM
just kidding
I can't believe I'm saying this...VertAddict
Nov 14, 2002 9:46 PM
...But no wonder they used french as the language of the English royal court for centuries after William the Conqueror. And I mean it, it really, *really*, pains me to say that!
I assume you're kidding...Wayne
Nov 15, 2002 5:37 AM
and realize that the reason French was the language of the English royal court was because William the Conqueror was a Norman from the area of Nomandy in France.
What are you doing in England?VertAddict
Nov 16, 2002 12:27 PM
Remember the Monty Python quote? I always loved that - the King of England asking the frenchman what he's doing there and being told, "mind your own business".

Umm, yeah, I knew that William the Conqueror was Norman and therefore spoke french, thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt. I was only commenting on the fact that French remained official language of the English court for a few centuries afterwards. Trying to read Beowulf, I can see where the Enlish language might have seemed uncouth at the time. And you're right, one way or another, it was intended humorously.
I can smell the fire in the common houseMcAndrus
Nov 15, 2002 1:56 PM
Just looking at this I can smell the fire in the Viking long house. I can almost hear the dogs barking and fighting for scraps under the table.

I had to read Beowulf in high school in the 60s (yes, I'm that old) and I remember being shocked at how dark and violent a story it was.

Must've been a million laughs living in the British Isles in those days.
Romanschmohair_chair
Nov 14, 2002 12:51 PM
One of the lesser known Romance languages, and one of the four official languages of Switzerland (with French, German, and Italian). Also, Romanian (from Romania) is a Romance language, believe it or not.
So will "American" english ever de-volve into ..eyebob
Nov 14, 2002 1:39 PM
"Bush-speak" english?

BT
Please stop the Demogogary.Captain Morgan
Nov 15, 2002 8:54 AM
Gore lost, and now leadership in both Houses is lost. Please don't be a sore loser.
Oops, too late.czardonic
Nov 15, 2002 5:07 PM
Not only is Bush's mush-mouthed aphasia off limits to criticism, it is defended with poor spelling and questionable diction!
[partial retraction]czardonic
Nov 15, 2002 5:22 PM
That came across a fair bit snider than I intended.
[partial retraction]Captain Morgan
Nov 18, 2002 9:19 AM
If you are referring to my grammar, please understand that it was written in an informal manner. The ridicule of my use of such slang is an insult up with which I shall not put.

Regarding the spelling (Demogogary), I acknowledge that error. Perhaps I should have performed a web search to find the correct spelling; however, that was a task I did not feel overly compelled to perform.

P.S. "snider"???
For $13 I'm getting the 2003 Bush quote-a-day calendar.....eyebob
Nov 18, 2002 9:58 AM
which includes classics like....

"I've got a record, a record that is conservative and a record that is compassionated."

Funny in an frightening kind of way.

BT
For $13 I'm getting the 2003 Bush quote-a-day calendar.....Captain Morgan
Nov 18, 2002 10:26 AM
Here's one from pop when he was President:

"Some reporters said that I don't have any vision. I don't see that."

This could be a new thread. I love quotes.
quotes thread (politically slanted so take with a grain of salt)eyebob
Nov 18, 2002 11:27 AM
Tom Delay "all the good spots in the army were taken by minorities" regarding his lack of service during the Vietnam War (conflict)

Dick Cheney "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service"

I got these from a comic strip that I read yesterday so I assume they're about as accurate as anything else.

BT
Equal opportunity Democratic stupid quotesCaptain Morgan
Nov 18, 2002 1:11 PM
Al Gore - "When my sister and I were growing up, there was never any doubt in our minds that men and women were equal, if not more so."

Bill Clinton - "I tried to walk a line between acting lawfully and testifying falsely, but I now realize that I did not fully accomplish that goal."