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One Art: a personal view of 911(14 posts)

One Art: a personal view of 911AllisonHayes
Sep 11, 2002 6:46 AM
"One Art: a personal view of 911"

The art of losing isn't hard to master;
so many things seem filled with the intent
to be lost that their loss is no disaster.

Lose something every day. Accept the fluster
of lost door keys, the hour badly spent
The art of losing isn't hard to master.

Then practice losing farther, losing faster:
places, and names, and where it was you meant
to travel. None of these will bring disaster.

As a child in 1980, I lost the 1500 top of Mt. St. Helens
when it blew; and again, I lost the 1500 foot flatirons
above Boulder when we moved away. The art of losing isn't
hard to master.

I lost two cities, lovely ones. And, vaster,
some realms I owned, two rivers, a continent.
I miss them, but it wasn't a disaster.

I lost a Grandfather whom I never knew. He was flying
a B29 at 1500 feet over Japan when his plane was
rammed by a kamakaze. They crashed into the Sea
of Japan. A search mission failed to find them.

I lost an uncle and a dear friend when, during a severe
storm in the Oregon Cascades, his plane iced over
and at 1500 feet slammed into the side of a cliff.
Then, I lost you and the 1500 feet of the World Trade
Center on 9/11. These losses are too hard to master.

-Even losing you (the joking voice, a gesture
I love) I shan't have lied. It's evident
the art of losing's not too hard to master
Though it may look like (Write it!) like disaster.

...adapted from Elisabeth Bishop's poem: "One Art"
Thanks Allison. nmrwbadley
Sep 11, 2002 10:43 AM
where you been, Ali?DougSloan
Sep 11, 2002 12:44 PM
Long time no hear from you. You been around lurking under another name, or just vacationing? I missed your contributions.

where you been, Ali?AllisonHayes
Sep 11, 2002 12:59 PM
I have been waiting for the board to settle down.

As someone else stated very succinctly, "It seems every time I check this board now women are being either patronized, made fun of because of the way they look, called dykes, or at the other end of the spectrum photos of models are being drooled over."

Also, the personal attacks simply aren't worth dealing with.
I knowDougSloan
Sep 11, 2002 1:19 PM
It gets to me, too, even when I'm not the target. We have no control over who does what here, short of voicing our opinions about improprieties. Some people can't seem to distinguish between good-natured fun and meanness or stupidity. I've learned that it takes a bit of thick skin to survive.

Welcome back.

where you been, Ali?DINOSAUR
Sep 11, 2002 5:43 PM
I have a teenage daughter who has a part time job after school. She has had trouble at work with a 21 year old male manager who's main problem in life is that he doesn't have any idea how to deal with people. We are trying to explain to her the importance of communication skills and interpersonal relationships. I told her that some people you just have to ignor. There are a couple of folks on this forum who will say anything just to get your goat. If you ignor them they will go on to pick on someone else. In other words, screw them...
1980? Gads, I'm feeling old, I was 38 years old in 1980, sigh.....
Welcome back &..........Len J
Sep 12, 2002 4:55 AM
Don't let the b@@#@@rds get you down!

Frankly, I visit here for the interaction with a small number of posters whom I really respect and admire. In addition, I occasionally can help a newbie looking for insight. This site is kind of like going to time square at midnight on new years eve with a group of friends, Although there are innumerable weird things going on around you (some of which are amusing and some of which are awful), the majority of your energy is spent interacting and enjoying your friends, while doing your best to ignore the dribble around you.

The real question for me is, Am i getting enough out of the interaction with these friends to make it worthwhile to put up with the crap? Frankly it ebbs & flows. Generally though, I keep coming back.

As far as the "women specific issues" you raise are concerned, I believe your comments are on point. Unfortunatly, I think that the anonimity of the internet allows for the expression out loud of those feelings that usually are hidden in polite society. The sad part is that the internet reminds us of how much work we all still have to do.

That being said, the posters who exibit this "Woman bashing/baiting/patronizing" appear to be in the minority (although they shout (Multiple post) louder than most). As with most aholes, ignore them and they go away. Think about the 20 posters that you look forward to reading and ask yourself how many of them fall into this catagory?

I've gotten to the point where I only read responses from a limited number of posters and/or read topics that interest me. There is enough value on this board for me to continue to lurk & occasionally post.

You add positive value and are missed when you are not here.

Misc ramblings & half thoughts

Ditto, well said nmrwbadley
Sep 12, 2002 11:07 AM
Thanks for sharing that Allison!critmass
Sep 11, 2002 8:10 PM
Is it just a coincidence that three of the most intelligent women here are being trolled? Two of them, Allison and Harlet, have their own dedicated personal trolls. For that reason alone it's no wonder Allison and Harlet don't post anymore! Jtolleson has the privilege to just be gay-baited. If Koolaid and ElaineK keep it up they will probably get their personal trolls too. There is more to this than someone needing thicker skin.
The way Len and Harlet and Jtolleson handled the matno thread is the way as a group to handle offensive trolls.
FWIW IMHO my 2 cents etc. or as my beloved intelligent prez would say: HUH?
Thanks for sharing that Allison!Jomo Kenyatta
Sep 12, 2002 6:45 AM
Great poem Allison. Very thoughtful.

Critmass, not that it really matters, but the only way to have a "dedicated personal troll" would be to bite every time they say something you disagree with. "Trolling," by definition means to say something that you think will get a response. (It's a fishing term). By popular internet usage, it has come to mean saying something for the sole purpose of getting someone's goat. Unfortunately, in the world in which we live, opinions vary strongly enough that voicing an honest opinion is often seen as "trolling." Happens all the time here on this forum. I think what you meant to say was "dedicated personal lurker"--someone who responds to certain people just to bug them.

I agree that there is no room here for belittling women or anyone else. Criticizing someone's opinion, particularly in regards to issues of politics or morality, is a different matter altogether and is singularly impossible to avoid unless nobody has an opinion or everyone has the same opinion.

Incidentally, I just thought I'd point out that I looked up the aforementioned "matno" thread and found it to be a perfect example of two very opposite opinions, but obviously both sides were completely valid in their own minds. Matno was certainly trolling (not lurking) on that one, but I'm not sure which part you thought was offensive. Well, obviously you thought Matno was the offensive party since you stated that the other posters "handled" him well. I agree that for the most part, Len, Harlet, Jtolleson, and the others were respectful in voicing their opinions, but I don't think Matno was any less respectful. You obviously disagree with what he was saying, but it seems odd to be personally "offended" by someone's opinion. The dictionary defines "offend" as 1a: to transgress the moral or divine law; 1b: to violate a law or rule; 2a: to cause difficulty, discomfort, or injury; 2b: to cause dislike, anger, or vexation. I suppose that last definition could possibly apply here since Matno's opinion caused you to dislike him, but it's a bit of a stretch.

Finally, in the words of a great man: "He who takes offense when none is intended is a fool, but he who takes offense when offense is intended is the greater fool." I'm not trying to say you're a fool, but I know I have been on many such occasions. Is thick skin necessary? Maybe we just need to learn to examine what we don't like and ask ourselves why. Then we can try to change what we can't accept and ignore the rest.
really a "flamer", not "troll"DougSloan
Sep 12, 2002 10:53 AM
Personal flamer is probably a better term than troll. The two could be the same, but someone who attacks is a flamer, someone who solicits attacks is a troll.

From time to time lots of us who are vocal get rewarded with personal flamers. I think anyone who posts frequently experiences this, except for maybe Dino, who is adept at avoiding all the crap.

What i found offensivecritmass
Sep 12, 2002 11:55 AM
As the father of a gay daughter I take strong offense when someone spews religious right wing fabricated science to justify an attack on the gay community. Anyone who has read the overview studies done by the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association and there counterparts in Europe and Canada will know that what Matno was spewing were lies. All those groups have also issued strong policy statements endorsing same-sex unions and adoption. The National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, whose main goal is to keep from mentioning homosexuality in public schools, "curing" homosexuals and whose scientific advisory committees 25 members are some of the religious rights most prominent doctors, is where the studies Matno refers to are coming from.
Yes I am personally offended when some troll uses the most offensive attacks he can think of to get a reaction on this subject. When someone says "homosexuality is a tragic side effect of other underlying mental disorders" "the overwhelming majority of same-sex unions are neither nurturing nor committed" "now that we're at the level of dysfunctional heterosexual family (assuming the best case scenario)" that person knows nothing about which he speaks or is trying to incite and in Matno's case I think both.
The people or person harassing Allison and Harlet are not lurkers, lurkers don't post. Even if someone doesn't read posts by people harassing them just coming back to the board and seeing that name responding to your post can bring back the words they have written before.
FWIW IMHO my 2 cents etc. or as my beloved intelligent prez would say "HUH?"

One of the definitions of a troll "a deliberately offensive insult to the readers of a newsgroup"
pretty much agree -- boils down to respectDougSloan
Sep 12, 2002 12:14 PM
Basically, it boils down to respecting each other, no matter what life decisions, appearance, or status any of us has. This is a cycling website, for crying out loud, and everything else is fairly irrelevant. If someone wants to rant about homosexuality or any other similar issue, pro or con, then go somewhere else. People come here to talk cycling.

I, as well as many here, will defend anyone, no matter who they are or what they believe, from unwarranted attacks or disrespect. I'm proud of that, for myself and this community; that's what helps to keep it civil and inviting to any cyclist who chooses to participate.

Respect is pretty simple. Many people don't get it, though.

pretty much agree -- boils down to respectJon Billheimer
Sep 12, 2002 2:32 PM
I have "religiously" kept out of these types of discussions simply because I think the prejudices, ignorance and illwill that motivate so many of these attacks is so virulent as to be impervious to rational discussion. However, I strongly agree with the above posters' statements and am especially resonant with Doug Sloan's statement. Thank you all. It makes me feel better about hanging around on this board after considering dropping my own participation from time to time because of the stupidity and offensiveness of some of the flamers.

That having been said I personally could give a rats ass about anyone's sexual orientation or private religious beliefs. On the other hand I really valued Harlett's keen intelligence and ability to articulate a viewpoint, even if I found myself in occasional disagreement. She's an RBR "friend" who I miss. Allison is witty and intelligent. In spite of the garbage which has been hucked her way I hope she doesn't go away. This board is a great source of information, informed, lively discussion and humour. I hope it stays that way.