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Tough time deciding between groups(52 posts)

Tough time deciding between groupsSPINDAWG
Jan 10, 2004 6:19 PM
Getting a new ride this spring and I can't decide between shimano or campy. I've got two other bikes with shimano and it has never let me down over countless miles! However I'm lovin' the carbon on the campy especially on the cranks and I've always been curious of the other side so to speak in the world of groupos.I'm just having a tough time leaving shimano and I would like to know the opinions of the campy users on several things like durability, is it easy to work on,feel of the hoods,shifting and do you ever get over the fear of dropping the bike and messing up the carbon.
re: Tough time deciding between groupspurplepaul
Jan 10, 2004 6:35 PM
I never fear messing up the carbon, but I probably would if I raced.

Seems easy enough to work on. It's definitely durable, though I can't say if it is more so than Shimano. I don't love the feeling of the hoods. The cable hits right at the middle of my palm, though if I wasn't so lazy, I'd route it through the alternate channel.

I'm quite happy with Record, but I'd expect Shimano to work just a little bit better. The Ergobrain seems tempermental. If you get a perfect one, no problems. If not, the only solution seems to be to return one after another until you do get a perfect one.
Have you seen the DA 04 cranks? Lightyears ahead of...Bruno S
Jan 10, 2004 6:53 PM
what Campy is capable to engineer or produce. Have you ever wonder why there are no Italian cars for sale in the US? They can't compete on price and reliability with other imports. Want mystique, history and style? Buy Campy. Want performance and price? Buy Shimano.
Have you seen the DA 04 cranks? Lightyears ahead of...Rusty Coggs
Jan 10, 2004 7:39 PM
Do people take pills to get this way?
A light year is simply a year.. just like a sound year. nm.russw19
Jan 10, 2004 8:31 PM
A light year is simply a year.. just like a sound year. nm.lsalins
Jan 10, 2004 8:49 PM
A light year a measure of distance. It's a little longer than a sound year.
Not a longer time!russw19
Jan 11, 2004 12:46 AM
And it seems you missed my point... I am aware that it is a distance measurement... hence the absurdity in saying something is "light-years" ahead... it doesn't refer to time, but distance... I was jokingly making fun of someone's reference to the Shimano crank being "lightyears ahead" of the Campy cranks. To say such is as absurd as saying it's sound-years ahead, or infrared-years ahead. If you are saying something is light-years ahead of something else and referring to it being futuristic, you are just saying it's one year advanced. Unless the post meant that the Shimano cranks are 6x10^12th miles ahead of the Campy cranks.

Oh, and just for the record... a light-year is more than a little longer than a sound-year... a sound-year is 6.5x10^6th miles (in air at 32 degrees F)... a light-year is 5.9x10^12th miles (roughly.)

Russ
What a wacky post!Continental
Jan 11, 2004 8:11 AM
You state that a light year is a distance, then you turn around and say that if something is light years ahead, it means it's just one year advanced.

Anyways, it's an idiom used to make expression of an idea a little more colorful. Now, tell me how absurd it is to ascribe color to an expression of an idea.
Now that's funny! Your last line!russw19
Jan 11, 2004 7:26 PM
Anyways... I wrote that post as I was falling asleep at my computer after a long ride yesterday. But I always laugh when some uses the "light-years ahead" line. They usually mean it's way futuristic... decades, heck even millenia ahead of it's time, when in fact it's only one year later.

A light-year as a measure of distance is huge... as a measure of time, it's still just one year. That's why I find the expression so funny.

And my post was in fun. I hope that's how everyone saw it. Even if they thought it was stupid... it was stupid out of fun.

Russ
Just an expresion to say that Shimano is way better than...Bruno S
Jan 11, 2004 5:19 PM
Campy. Wait, that may not be clear to some readers since they could ask: Which way?

What is disappointing is that I wanted to start a discusion about cranks and instead we have a discusion over an idiom. After thinking about it, the expresion should be used to point out a very large distance and not time as used in my post.
ever heard of Ferrari, Lamborghini or Maserati?gtx
Jan 10, 2004 8:43 PM
And Alfa Romeo should make it back here in the next few years.
Campagnolo makes bearings for all of themDave_Stohler
Jan 10, 2004 9:16 PM
Wheels, too.
not for much longer. VW is buying ferrari. nmMajor Kong
Jan 11, 2004 10:42 PM
wouldn't question campy's engineering expertise.brian n
Jan 12, 2004 7:54 AM
i don't think i'll buy the lack of technology and skill argument - campagnolo was the first company in the world to develop magnesium casting and forging (which you will see on older ferraris and other related sports cars). They also are an industry leader in producing carbon fiber parts that interface with bearing races - and as such do a good bit of formula 1 car parts. just because shimano owns a patent on a splined bottom bracket doesn't mean that another company doesn't have the technological expertise to produce a comparable product.

and, if i'm not wrong, the new DA groups are on par if not more expensive than campy record.
DA10 is about $200 less in Europe compared to Record nm.divve
Jan 12, 2004 8:02 AM
that's interesting b/c it's reversed in the us n/mBonked
Jan 12, 2004 11:29 AM
re: Tough time deciding between groupskestrel
Jan 10, 2004 7:51 PM
i was you, never had campy, now i have three bikes with campy, once you have it, you will never go back. better looking, works just as well, hoods are way more comfortable. but hey, everyone will say something different. DA is ugly this year. those cranks are not good looking at all. m
Don 't go Campybimini
Jan 11, 2004 5:37 AM
Like Kestrel says, if you get Campy on one of your bikes you will want to switch all of them to Campy. That would get expensive.

Since you already have two Shimano bikes and are happy stick with what works for you. It will allow you to switch parts between all the bikes.

I am a fan of Campy and run Campy, but DA is good stuff also. I run the lower end of Campy and here I would argue that the low/middle Campy stuff is better than the similar offerings from Shimano.
Homogeny!MShaw
Jan 12, 2004 10:12 AM
I subscribe to the theory in this post. I'd love to have Campy, but my wheelsets are all Shimano-compatible. I don't want to go buy 2 pair of shifters/rear derailleurs and 8 more pair of wheels to go Campy... Till something breaks that is.

I'm waiting to go 10s when Shimano makes Ultegra 10s. That way I don't have to change hubs or overpay for something that just wears out.

If you really want to go Campy, stick with 9sp. That way you CAN switch wheelsets with minimal fiddling.

That help?

Mike
Thank God!... I almost went a week w/out this debate. nmseyboro
Jan 10, 2004 7:54 PM
Would that have been a "light week"??? j/krussw19
Jan 10, 2004 8:32 PM
2 reasons to go Campy:Dave_Stohler
Jan 10, 2004 8:39 PM
1) No cables! They route the shift cables along the bar.

2) Better bearings.

Also, you might like that the brake release is at the lever instead of at the caliper. Or, maybe not...
SPINDAWG
Jan 10, 2004 9:38 PM
Come on guys I need some real feedback, I'm needing the campy faithful to take a step forward and tell me why I should or shouldn't go with particular brand, and not run a discussion on light years and other rif raf...dang!
Tough time deciding between groupsspockie
Jan 10, 2004 10:31 PM
This is a debate that could go on for the next century. I have owned both gruppos and have gone overall with campy.
My personal reasons are:
I like the ergobrain over the flight deck, have had some serious issues with it not registering mph, or mileage or just not working
2) The ergo levers are rebuildable,and yes I have done so
3) The 10 speed configuration has been around for years now in campy, and only released this last year by shimano
4) You do not have to buy a record to get the 10 speed configuration (chorus, veloce also have it), whereas you must buy the dura-ace in order to get the 10 speed.
5. Campy does use carbon in its gruppo, and is fairly standard now. Shimano still uses metal in areas where if they were made in composite materials could save weight
6. I really think this is a good reason, Shimano is doing the 10 speed for the first time, so I would wait and see how it works out after being mass-produced. Things that are in the first year of production, may have bugs.
Just my take on the debate
Spockie
Tough time deciding between groupsgmikes
Jan 11, 2004 5:37 AM
I have often heard the cannard about shimano not using carbon since they have little expertise with it, and that using it would decrease the weight.

Outside of the japanese military, shimano is the largest user of carbon fibre in Japan! They have used it extensively in their fishing rod business for years. Shimano also has some of the most advanced aluminum forging techniques and capabilities in the world.

Shimano has looked at the demands of bicycle components and concluded that alu works best. Surely some carbon pieces might be lighter but in the overall picture shimano has decided that alu is the better way to go.

Shimano is the company that pursues new designs and technologies, albeit using traditional materials. Campy seems to be satisfied with technologies that haven't changed substantially in 40 years and pursues the use of newer materials.

Me? I like the traditional materials and will take the advancement in design and function anyday over material advances.
What ya askin me forgrandemamou
Jan 11, 2004 5:22 AM
I like most here have definite preferences. Some reasons are rational and some rational only to me. I like Campy, nothing to defend. I could care less what anyone else rides. I would put alot more faith on a trusted bike shop or clubmate than some of the characters here.

Go out and ride the things and see which you prefer.

There are distinct differences in the shift mechanism. IMO the other componants are pretty much a wash. Or at least not a deal breaker.
What he said...koala
Jan 11, 2004 5:34 AM
You will like the shifting and hood feel of one or the other. You wont give a rats backside about style when youre climbing that steep grade on the way home after 3 hours in the saddle. Youll just wish you had another gear as you try to stay with the pack on that 90 degree day. If your looking for a vote I think Campys hoods are better for me and I like the positive clunk feel of the shifting. I could never get used to Shimanos shifting you almost cant feel. Personal preference. Oh, I hate that DA crank too. BFD.
they are both good. it's a matter of taste.colker1
Jan 11, 2004 7:51 AM
mine is pro campy. want to follow me? or decide yourself?
campy faithfulSPINDAWG
Jan 10, 2004 9:40 PM
Come on guys I need some real feedback, I'm needing the campy faithful to take a step forward and tell me why I should or shouldn't go with particular brand, and not run a discussion on light years and other rif raf...dang!
Anyone ever tell you they had a Campy fishing reel?Shylock
Jan 10, 2004 10:40 PM
... Reason enough to avoid Shimano.....other than the fact that it's pretty darned ugly and clunky looking.

Feel the gin
I am not a Shimano-phile, but the other side of this coin...russw19
Jan 11, 2004 1:05 AM
Cables routed under the handlebar tape cause much more friction. That is why Shimano routes their cables outside of the tape. Campy does it under the tape for style and fashion... Shimano does it outside for performance. If you are argueing one is better due to aesthetics, I can not argue against that, but the performance issue is another story.

Also, Campy and Shimano for the Dura-Ace line both use Grade 25 bearings. So the better bearing thought is not accurate.

There is no way to win the Campy vs. Shimano debate other than personal preference. Up until 5 years ago you could have pointed out that Shimano had never won a Tour de France, but now you could claim the dominate it....

The bottom line is that this choice should be made by the individual, not a bunch of people on the net telling them tall tales about which is better.

Russ (who by the way loves Campy!)
Not true...seyboro
Jan 11, 2004 5:06 AM
Performance has absolutely nothing to do with Shimano running their shifter cables on the outside. Shifter cables under the tape do not cause any more friction either.
Campagnolo can hide their cables, because the whole shifting mechanism sits inside the shifter body, close to the base of the ergo shifter. Shimano put the shifting 'intestines' into the head of the shifter, which is why it is so big and the cables are on the outside - the angle at which they would have to leave the shifter would be too extreme to route them under the bar.
I am not a Shimano-phile, but the other side of this coin...pedalruns
Jan 11, 2004 11:16 AM
I have mavic calipers with the campy levers and it stops better than shimano..

That used to make a difference back when the older single pivot brakes first went areo.. those brakes would work better with the cables coming out the tops of the hoods.. Now with double piviot doesn't make a difference.
We're aren't talking brakes... talking shifting...russw19
Jan 11, 2004 7:40 PM
There is more friction involved in running the cables under the tape. Campy compensates for it, and their stuff shifts fine, but that doesn't mean that there is less friction just because it still works. Also you need to remove the tape to change the housing, or even to lube it. You don't have to do that with Shimano. Is it important enough to buy the Shimano group over the Campy? Absolutely not! But the other side of that coin is equally true. It's not important enough to buy Campy over Shimano because they run the cables under the tape. My post was in response to a comment about that.

And the real down and dirty point of any of my posts in this thread is that there is absolutely no real advantage to either Campy or Shimano. They both work equally well and this arguement about which is better can never be settled. It is only a perception difference. A choice of one over the other. Personal preference. If one actually worked better than the other, that's all you would see pros riding. I know some will argue that a pro will ride what ever they are given, and that is partially true, but no person who rides a bike for a paycheck, a meal ticket, a source of income for their family, would EVER ride a group knowing it was not as good as the guy next to them in the pack's equipment. If Campy was better, everyone would ride it. If Shimano was better, everyone would ride that instead. But the bottom line is that if you are going to choose, choose the one you prefer and sleep well at night knowing it is just as good as the one you didn't pick.

I ride both groups... I will tell you both work just as well. But the one thing I won't try to tell anyone is which is "better" because that's just my choice. There is no measureable advantage of one over the other.

Russ
and what's with the continued arguement on $$$?Bonked
Jan 10, 2004 11:05 PM
i mean, shimano is great stuff, but have you seen the price of new dura-ace? record is now lighter, better looking AND less expensive...why use anything else?
Read this: http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/5413.0.html nmdivve
Jan 11, 2004 12:31 AM
re: Tough time deciding between groupsKiwi Rider
Jan 11, 2004 12:38 AM
Campag is in a world wide shortage .At least thats what I understand, seams to take an age for Campag to come to NZ, and is what LBS told me. So, to me, Campag's demand is outstripping supply and so they gotta be doing something right :) BTW, I'm getting a new bike soon :) Still need to get prices though. Details will come when I know what I'm getting, but it's definately CAMPAG! (Currently on Shimano 105, not impressed)

Hope it helped.

Kiwi Rider
re: Tough time deciding between groupsboneman
Jan 11, 2004 2:43 AM
I own both Record 10, not the 2004 version though, and various DA STI incarnations starting with 7 up to now 9. Background as longtime Campy user until they lost their way with indexing toward the end of the 80's. Anyone who dealt with their Synchro washers will know of what I speak.

I've not had durability issues with either manufacturer. Even after crashing, the STI levers have proven quite durable. Only dropped the Campy rigs once but they too survived. One note would be that individual parts are available for both companies although I've personally had an easier time getting small Campy parts. One can go to the Shimano European site and get the pdf files showing all the parts but getting them is a bit harder than Campy. At least this is how it is for me in Europe. Possibly different in the States but from the comments I've seen, not likely.

They're both equally easy to work on in terms of setting up, cleaning, adjusting and repair.

Feeling on the hoods is different but despite their 'take it or leave it' appearance of the DA 10 levers, they've made them more comfortable for those with smaller hands. Interesting comment by Sean Yates who used to ride for Motorola and is a big boy. He found the Ergo lever hoods to be small compared to DA. Again, the 9 STI's are meatier than the 10's. I've got small hands and they're both fine. Reach isn't that different for either from the drops to the levers.

Shifting, the methods are different but they both work well and I find switching back and forth not a problem. I do like being able to drop into smaller cogs by shifts of one on the Ergo rather than multiple jabs of the lever on the STI. I also find that the accuracy of the indexing to hold better on the Record 10 than the STI 9. Supposedly fixed on the STI 10. My STI 8 never had the problem in holding the adjustment.

I do like the concepts espoused by DA on their crankset. The appearance is something I like some days and hate on others. Campy is lagging on innovating in the crank/BB area as the Octalink BB, the new DA design and Cannondale's hollowgram cranks are IMHO more advanced but that just my .02p

Long story short, Campy user since the early 70's goes Shimano in the late 80's (although I did buy the complete DA gruppo when it cames to the States in 1974) and now has two bikes with Record 10 and one with DA9. I will undoubtedly buy the DA10 setup but only once they get more cassette choices to market.

Probably of limited help but they're both gruppos which function well leaving it down to personal choice.
Thanks once again boneman!SPINDAWG
Jan 11, 2004 12:03 PM
I should have known to direct my question to you. I'll know next time instead of starting a war. I'm getting that Colnago this year and I wanted to do it up right. All i've ever ridden were Treks and they've come dressed in Durace and i've never had problems.Just wanted some opinions on Campy because i've never used it and I was just basing my purchase of it puely from looks.
Oh yeah I ordered that C-50 in the AD10 color scheme,Mike had sent me pictures of a C-40 in that color and it was sweeeeeeet! Thanks again Boneman!
DA crank concept is not new nor is it by Shimano nm.divve
Jan 11, 2004 6:32 PM
Try campybsdc
Jan 11, 2004 6:00 AM
I recently switched from Shimano to Campy. It's known for its durability, it is easy to work with, the hoods feel excellent (which is one of my primary reasons switching), and the shifting is very crisp leaving you no question of if you pushed it far enough to move into the next gear. I don't have carbon shifters. I prefer and have the '03 Chorus.

The only thing I don't like is the thumb shifters. It's just not as quick and easy to switch back and forth between two gears like on Shimano.

I was really disappointed to see Shimano redesign the hoods on the 2004 DA and leave a large dip on the top. The flat hoods of Campy are much more comfortable.
re: Tough time deciding between groupspedalruns
Jan 11, 2004 6:28 AM
I switched to Campy after years of shimano use.. And I liked shimano just fine.. I'm not a shimano or campy "hater"..

I switched lastyear because the hoods were more comfortable.. the campy hoods are a bit wider and after a test ride on the campy stuff I switched out my old Ultegra stuff for Campy Record!

I love the campy now! I have record 03, which is basically the Chorus 04 group now.. and I like the mix of carbon in the group. The thumb shifting is much faster than the shimano 9 speed (don't know about 10) and the group is just beautiful.. I even crashed on it and only got a small knick on the lever.. I like it better now with the knick, looks used.. the carbon is pretty strong it is not just going to snap off anymore than metal.

That's just my opinion. Go with what is comfortable.
re: Tough time deciding between groupscheaperthancarsdear
Jan 11, 2004 8:56 AM
Regarding the cable issue- you can get Nokon cable housing to route Shimano shift cables under the bar tape for a cleaner look. There's a picture of this in last month's Cycling Plus (pg 68). They like it for using a bar bag for brevets (and you save some weight vs. the regular cabling).
You should definitely try campy, because, it seems to me,djg
Jan 11, 2004 10:21 AM
you want to try it. If you've got a bug in your ear about campy, kill the bug by buying campy. You'll either like it better or worse or just the same as what you have now. And you'll know that.

Although I've got campy on both road bikes, I'm not going to engage in a pointless tastes great/less filling "quality" comparison. Both shimano and campagnolo make stuff that works great and I don't really see the point of a religious war over the question whether brake release mechanisms should be levers on the brakes themselves or buttons on the levers/shifters. The levers feel a bit different--some folks love one or hate the other and most folks probably adapt pretty quickly.

The main disadvantage to trying the new group is a risk of some redundancy or inefficiency in not having all your equipment be the same or swapable. But if this is going to be your third road bike that might not be an issue for you at all. As for durability/servicability issues: high points to campy and no insults to anybody else.
re: Tough time deciding between groupsJetSpeed
Jan 11, 2004 10:22 AM
When I bought my new ride in June I was mostly convinced I wanted Dura Ace Shimano. I had the same problem deciding between the the two groups.
However, once I rode the two groups I fell in love w/Campy hands-down! I like how the hoods felt, how it shifted, and how it looked (if that even mattered). I also liked owning a "classic" group. More psychological than anything but, still a net feeling.
PLEASE RIDE THE TWO GROUPS! Not just once but, several times until you're comfortable making up your own mind. I think it will be easy from there and remember, neither decision is a bad one!
"Campy wears in..Shimano wears out..."lyleseven
Jan 11, 2004 11:10 AM
Problem is, I'll be long gone before either of mine wears out......
Thanks guys for all your opinions!SPINDAWG
Jan 11, 2004 12:25 PM
This is just something i'll have to experience for myself,just was hesitant about trying something new but wanted to if you know what I mean. Thanks again for all of your responses, didn't mean to start the war.Just don't want to make a huge mistake and be disapointed. If it means anything to you, i've decided to ride campy this season.Thanks guys!
I won't buy Shimano for the same reason I won't buy a Japanesebill
Jan 12, 2004 8:29 AM
car.
Pearl Harbor.
Oh please! Not again.KG 361
Jan 12, 2004 10:35 AM
Grow up.
When the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor . . .bill
Jan 12, 2004 10:55 AM
IT'S A JOKE. (i'm going to have to work on my timing, or my audience, maybe both). Thought that you knew me better than that; guess not.
Even so, something appeals to me about the Italian cycling thing versus the Japanese "functionality" thing (which are, of course, nothing but old, ingrained, useless, and amazingly entrenched stereotypes). When the decision is arbitrary, as it all but is unless you can find something in the two systems as defining (lever shape, thumb shifter, carbon bits, who knows what else?), which I really can't, you may as well latch onto something arbitrary, like Italian cycling heritage. I mean, why not? Either system will serve you well. I can't argue the merits, and I defy anyone to try (not really -- please don't). I just like the Campy thing. When I see someone else with Campy, I think, well there goes a kindred soul -- someone who believes in form over substance, who wants to spend that extra bit because it's aesthetically pleasing to that person, at risk that others will think he's an elitist, because maybe he is.
Ok, you're off the hook.KG 361
Jan 12, 2004 11:48 AM
Humor, especially sarcasm often does not translate well on internet boards =) Good REAL answer, by the way. Me, it's Shimano, not because it's better, but it's what I like (although, with the new D/A crank), when I go to 10-speed, it at least won't be a Shimano crank. They're FUGLY.
One reason to buy Shimano ...pmf1
Jan 12, 2004 9:18 AM
The 10-speed cassettes will be compatible with the 9-speed Shimano wheels you have.

I have a ton of wheels and that's pretty much while I've always stuck with Shimano ... inertia mostly. The 10-speed DA group looks pretty cool. Kind of an outrageous price though.

Despite all the BS here, I'm sure either one works perfectly. To suggest that Italians can't machine aluminium cranks like the Japanese is as silly as claiming Italian components last longer than Japanese components. They're just bike parts.