|Bizarre article on Jimenez death||jtolleson|
Dec 11, 2003 7:41 AM
|Of course, it is bicycling.com so what can one expect.
I was first baffled by the statement that although his death was "not shocking" it was "certainly startling." But I was even more puzzled by the implication that the reason the author was not "shocked" by the young rider's death from a HEART ATTACK is because the rider had been treated for SEVERE DEPRESSION.
The connection is lost on me.
|re: Bizarre article on Jimenez death||Leroy|
Dec 11, 2003 8:12 AM
|Maybe the author knows something he's holding back? I am shocked at the number of young riders' sudden deaths from "heart attacks" or "natural causes". That is hardly natural, and it shocks me.|
|32, heart attack? not shocking, expected?||sievers11|
Dec 11, 2003 8:19 AM
|This is a bunch of whooie. Somthing is up here, either we don't know the whole story or the author is be very, very, very insensitive to the situation.
Anytime anyone dies of a heart attack it is shocking and startling. It is a quick out of no where thing even if the person is 75 yrs old and 275 lb of TV watching, steak loving american. Has it become common place that little euro climbers hearts just "go bad" at 32, no.
Like I said before, the heart attack was either caused by some drug overdose or preexisting condition or the author is an --- ----.
|bicycling.com just not up on the sport||rollo tommassi|
Dec 11, 2003 8:30 AM
|everybody knows he's had problems with depression for the past two years. We certainly don't know the details, extent of his suffering, or course of treatment.
personally, and I'm saying it to say it, I think it was a suicide.
|have to agree||cyclopathic|
Dec 11, 2003 8:51 AM
|seems like a perfect suicide cover up. Of cause there's a slim chance he was subjected to some brutal treatment. Dying from heart attack in hospital? No.|
Dec 11, 2003 11:08 AM
|In this day and age of cycling and the state of the sport? Young riders or recently ex-pros dying of heart attacks is a red flag that something is not kosher(sp?) in the sport. I raised this point last week and a few people blasted me for disrespecting a dead man and causing inuendo. That was not what I was trying to do. Jimenez's sudden death raises two obvious questons given the two over riding circumstances surrounding it. First off he was a recently ex-pro bike racer. and Second he was suffering from depression. So....did his sudden death have to do with, perhaps,in some way, the former abuse of drugs to enhance performance? OR was it, perhaps, suicide?
If it possibly could, and I want to over state POSSIBLY COULD, be related to drugs than that is obviously a bad thing for the sport. If is was a suicide, then that is really a tragedy and I feel for his families and friends. BUT, if it was a suicide, I think that saying it was a heart attack is a very HORRIBLE cover-up story considering the cloud hanging over the sport.
In my opinion, to ask these "hard" questions is not disrespectful to Jimenez, on the contrary, it is quite the opposite. The truth should be known.
As far as young healthy athletes dying from heart failure that is caused by some natural underlying condition...it does happen, but very, very, very rarely. I mean are we all really so niaive(sp?) as to believe that all of these young men are dying from "natural causes"?
I love cycling. And I love bicycle racing. But after reading Voit's and Kimmage's book, and from history (Tom Simpson, etc.) I am very cynical about what is going on in the pro peleton.
And it seems like a lot of young men, who should not be dying, are dying as a result of the current culture in the sport. I hope I'm completly wrong. I would like nothing more than to be completly way off base here. But any thinking person that follows the sport has to ask the question.
There, how's that for a rant?
|still dying in the hospital?||cyclopathic|
Dec 11, 2003 11:38 AM
|even in psychiatric hospital, very unlikely. The only explanation he was subject to brutal treatment (and abuses of this sort are not rare in mental institutions) and was not given help on time. Generally if you were to have heart attack in ER room, you'd have very very good chances to survive.
On other hand heart attack is commonly used excuse to cover murder/suicide, taken from hollywood book.
Now neither explanation addresses possible substance abuse, but I'll stick with it. When your door bell rings you may fantasize it is Queen of England, but more likely it is your neighbor to borrow your lawn mower.
|Oh, no, you're not ranting at all||rollo tommassi|
Dec 11, 2003 12:09 PM
|Sorry that you got blasted last week for raising this question. Your points are quite on the mark, and are good cause for reflection about the nature of sport in general, and not just 'cycle sport bashing'.
The human heart is the Achilles heel for cyclists, for it is the very thing that makes them special. Great that you have a larger than normal heart, you can climb those mountains and process greater amounts of oxygenated blood. But....it's a larger than normal heart and you're asking a lot of it by climbing mountains and draining your body of salts and minerals....
This is all above and beyond any sort of doping, from caffeine to human growth hormones.
The culture of the sport is, much like the heart of its riders, is larger than normal and reflects the culture and society at large. Our culture prizes success. Winning at all costs. Overcoming adversity (socio-economic or medical).
Perhaps someone like Jimenez was the willing guinea pig of a society that demands greatness from abnormality. He subjected himself, as a profession, to a system that by its very nature extolls extremity and rewards death. Death in achieving a pinnacle, arriving at a finality, be it a mountaintop or stopwatch.
Perhaps these were the things that he struggled with, in his mind, or he was simply struggling with a chemical imbalance. We may never know what he was going through, maybe someday someone in his family will open that up with the public.
|Why is this any of our business?||Len J|
Dec 12, 2003 4:57 AM
|We in the US seem to believe that anything that happens to someone who has been in the public eye, is our business. We believe that we "Have a right" to know. Well I say, Bull s%%t.
A young man of 32 who has suffered fom depression died in a mental hospital. It's a tragedy. The family must be barely hanging on at this point. To compound their pain by guesses and innuendo does nothing but (possibly) add to their misery. To what purpose?
Wether or not he dies of a cocaine OD, a reaction to years of Performance enhancing drugs, a reaction to years of hard effort, a weak heart or suicide, doesn't change the fact that he is dead. Our speculation is nothing but that, speculation.
We all know that some cyclist have (and do) use performance enhancers, we all know that professional cyclists are human beings that suffer the same human weaknesses that any of us do, Why is it so important to know exactly what happened in this case? Knowing will change absolutly nothing. And he still will be dead.
We don't have a "right to know".
How would you feel if it was your brother that this speculation was about?
What parts of your life will change if you knew the truth?
Let the poor man rest in peace, it sounds like he didn't rest in life.
|Inquiring minds want to know...||zero85ZEN|
Dec 12, 2003 7:46 AM
|...when you gain fame, at any level, you sacrifice some privacy. That's the trade off. If none of us knew who this guy was, none of us would be asking the question.
He benefited from success in the very public forum of professional cycling and as a result it is natural for fans of that sport, and of his, to want an explanation of his death.
You can stick your head in the sand if that is your desire. I prefer to try and understand the world around me. I question the "why's" of unusual and shocking occurances such as very physically fit young athletes dying at age 32 from heart attacks.
Take a chill pill Len.
|Agree to a point, but...........||Len J|
Dec 12, 2003 7:48 AM
|how would you feel if it was your brother?
As to taking a chill pill, don't need one.
|I don't know, he's not my brother...||zero85ZEN|
Dec 12, 2003 9:13 AM
|...and I highly doubt his family, including his brother, if he has one, is checking the message board here at RBR. Besides, nobody has said anything negative about him. In fact, by asking what happened, people are expressing their shock and concern as to how this could have happended.|
|Severe depression can have||cyclinseth|
Dec 11, 2003 8:42 AM
|a very real, physiologic, negative effect on cardiac health. If there are any psychiatrists or cardiologists in the house, they may be able to give more scientific/medical details.|
|Severe depression can have||sievers11|
Dec 11, 2003 8:49 AM
|Are medications used to treat depression hard on the heart too?|
Dec 11, 2003 11:15 AM
|...has never led me to believe that sever depression, or any mood disorder, can lead DIRECTLY to someting as sever as total heart failure. Over years and years depression takes its toll on the whole body...but come on folks, two years ago he was winning mountian stages in the Vuelta.
In this instance, considering the time frame, suicied is a much more plausible cause of death.
I can't believe that any medicine to treat depression could lead to heart failure especially while the patient is in a hospital.
Who know's what the truth is here, but I think people are wise to ask questions. And asking the questions is in no way denying what a tragedy his death was.
Dec 11, 2003 1:15 PM
|I am an internist in new york and find it very strange that there is no autopsy. If I had a patient and they were 32 years old and died, it would certainly be unexpected and would prompt a coroner's inquiry. Certainly I would want to know what my patient died from. Without knowing specifics, I think it is unlikely that this unfortunate man died from a cardiac problem. On a psychiatric unit there would not be monitoring devices that would tell you there was anything going on cardiac-wise, so I don't know how they came up with a heart problem as the cause.|
|NOT very strange||desertmd|
Dec 11, 2003 3:53 PM
|Of course the family would have decided whether to have an autopsy, and perhaps he had a known heart condition that people outside his physicians did not know which kept the coroner away. I find most people refuse autopsy in general, and so nothing seems unusual about this. He probably had a congenital defect, perhaps it runs in his family.|
|NOT very strange||gebbyfish|
Dec 12, 2003 4:29 AM
|In my experience if you are a young person, not under a medical(not psychiatric doctor's care), and you die at age 32, there will be a coroner's investigation without doubt. If a doctor is aware of a congenital heart condition, and will vouch for the death as being caused by that, sure no inquiry. But I find it hard to believe, but not impossible, that he could have had a congenital heart defect and been such a great climber. I think all of our suspicions are confirmed if you see the post below ours, which also sites that there was an autopsy after all, and a "suspicious white substance".|
|Someone just dropped the bomb...||divve|
Dec 11, 2003 5:35 PM