|How are we going to get New DuraAce at a good price?||collectorvelo|
Oct 30, 2003 2:42 AM
|I love and collect road bikes (also love cars but do not have enough money to collect those). I have an old Peugeot, Colnogo, Mercier, Raleigh, Motobecane, Astro-Damiler, and Gitane - all with Campy and sewups. Plus I have relatively new Trek, Motobecane, Fuji, Bianchi, and Specialized - all Aluminum with Ultegra and wire-ons.
Now I have seen and must have the new 10-speed DuraAce on a nice new bike (and my wife says OK). So I have been e-mailing the online sellers to check for best price - have tried supergo, bikesdirect, and coloradocyclist for what they can get a new bike in new 10-speed full DuraAce for.
Best price I have gotten on a 10-speed DuraAce bike is $1695 and that is not in until mid December. Good price I think; but is there anything else out there I am wondering?
Anyone found a great deal on new DuraAce bikes? Anyone purchased one yet? How do you like it? (that doesnt matter as much as I have to have it anyway). Just wondering if there are any great deals I am skipping.
Oct 30, 2003 4:28 AM
|Like all new things, the initial price is high for the suckers willing to pay. Wait a few months. This spring, when all the retailers are stocked, the prices will drop.|
Oct 30, 2003 4:39 AM
|there is nothing like trainning on Dura-ace 10 this winter on the salty roads! :)|
|don't buy it||tarwheel|
Oct 30, 2003 6:42 AM
|If nobody buys the new Dura-Ace, Shimano eventually will forced to come to their senses and drop the prices to a reasonable level. Nothing like supply and demand to bring prices in line with real value. I don't understand the wisdom of jacking your prices 25-50% during a recession when few people have money to blow, but there are suckers born every minute. Personally I would be looking for good deals on the old Dura-Ace groups if I was in the market. That extra gear ain't worth $500.|
|don't buy it? is a Full 10-speed DuraAce worth $1700||collectorvelo|
Oct 30, 2003 6:56 AM
|I am confused; are you saying a 10-speed DuraAce bike with Ritchey Pro wheels, Pro Stem, Seatpost, and Bars -- with light aluminum frame and Carbon fork is not worth $1695?
if it is worth less than that - how much less? and do you believe that Full DuraAce bikes will drop to say $1200 or $1400 if the sales of the new DuraAce is not good.
I really want that new group; but of course, I do not want to overpay
|What are you smoking?||Fez|
Oct 30, 2003 7:22 AM
|At first, I thought you meant the complete DA 10 speed group was $1695 (everything EXCEPT frame and fork). Sounded reasonable.
Now you're telling us that it includes a frame and fork? Jump on that deal!
You are insane if you think full DA bikes are going to drop to $1200-1400.
Oct 30, 2003 8:43 AM
|My confusion. I thought it was just $1,700 for the group. That price for an entire DA bike is a good price. Initial prices I have seen for the new DA components are much higher than previously -- in the range of 25-50%|
|Theres an old marketing adage that says................||Len J|
Oct 30, 2003 6:56 AM
|on a new product, it's always easier to lower the price than it is to raise it.
I agree with whoever said, be patient.
That being said, I like the shifters. I'm going to give it a year to work out the kinks, and come out with the triple version & then I'll replace the rear Der, Casette & Shifters.
|Work out the kinks?||Fez|
Oct 30, 2003 7:18 AM
|I thought that was Lance's job for the past year.
If history is any indicator, there seems to be more kinks (and resulting updates) to the Ultegra and 105 components than the Dura Ace.
|Nothing is finished until it's exposed to the real world........||Len J|
Oct 30, 2003 8:12 AM
|and the mass users.
I wouldn't buy the first year model of a new car, why? because there are always many things discovered, that the engineers didn't anticipate, when large numers of users use the product in everday situitations. Some of it is assembly errors, some of it is just small easily made changes that have a hugh effect on performance. A great example of this is the New Dura Ace pedals. It clearly was a well thought out product, well engineered and an obvious great product for it's intended use. In the first year, there were several problems, first off was the cleat issue. Initial shipments had cleats that needed to be replaced. Finally, the 2004 pedal design was changed to reduce the wear on the spindle cover.
New products, no matter how well thought out, always have things that are discovered when put to large use. The "discoveries" tend to diminish over time (especially if they were well engineered to begin with), so normally the best product to buy is not the first year model but the second year (unless you keep hearing about first year products). The "noise" level will tell you when it's time.
Oct 30, 2003 8:21 AM
|Even more so now in the component makers' rush to get new product in the marketplace ahead of competitors. A year or so of race testing only uncovers one level of design/assembly/quality issues. It is much different when warranty claims are taken into account. For some reason pedals are the new hot thing to upgrade - New DA, Time Impact, Sppedplay Zero and others pretty much hit the market simultaneously. This after years of "stability" pretty much dominated by Look and Time to a lesser extent.
In any case, I wouldn't expect the prices on 10 speed DA to be falling anytime soon. If you can find a complete DA10 bike for the prices you say, go for it. $1200 for a DA10 bike? That is somewhat unbelievable as that's a competitive price point for Ultegra 9 and even some 105 level bikes.
|I do not think DuraAce is untested||collectorvelo|
Oct 30, 2003 8:28 AM
|I want the first year production; it is more collectable and i do not think it is untested. i think they have been using it on pro teams - want it in the tour the last year or so?|
|Race testing.............||Len J|
Oct 30, 2003 8:39 AM
|when it is being maintained by professional mechanics daily, is not the same as being tested by 10,000 consumers, using it in a variety of conditions, with a wide range of maintenance practices.
I guarantee you that the 2005 D/A will have at least 2 changes that everyone will say, "Of course".
My .02, I'll spend my money, you spend yours.
|Yes and no||sievers11|
Oct 30, 2003 8:47 AM
|Those guys put on more stress and abuse than most of use ever could. If any changes or updates come around they will have originated from the race team mechanics and racing RD.
Dura Ace was invented to race for top riders, race testing is the only way to go.
|Let's agree to disagree.............||Len J|
Oct 30, 2003 10:06 AM
|if what you say is true, how come the D/A pedals had to be revised. Trust me, it wasn't because of race experience. The equipement may take more short term abuse racing, but slightly worn equipement is quickly replaced on a top level racing machine. Real wear testing results come from general poublic release.
|The Campy Record mentality||pmf1|
Oct 30, 2003 10:40 AM
|If it costs more, it must be better.
Now Shimano finally has a group worthy of comparison to Campy Record. Its got that all important and vital tenth cog on the cassette, and it costs a lot.
We can only hope that it "improves" every year with some new carbon gizmo here or there.
I'm still waiting for the $1000 carbon cranks to go with it.
|2004 dura ace, 2005 ultegra/105||sievers11|
Oct 30, 2003 8:51 AM
|I am going to wait until the sweetness that is the dura ace crank tickles down to the reasonable ultegra or 105 groups.
Unless I get a new job or a raise, then...whoo-dog dura time.
Dura ace has always been much better than any of the other shimano equipment, not contest there, it is just that ultegra and 105 are good enough.
|You don't care what kind of bike it is?||Poseur|
Oct 30, 2003 9:30 AM
|Are you saying you want to buy the cheapest road bike possible as long as it has DuraAce? Why not just buy the new DuraAce group and put it on one of your existing bikes?|
|You don't care what kind of bike it is? Yes, in a way||collectorvelo|
Oct 30, 2003 10:12 AM
|The bike being offered me is a Motobecane; which I already have two of - I would kinda like something different just for grins - but since the Moto has a Kinesis frame that is probably made in the same factory as a Specialized, Or Felt, Or Raleigh, Or Bianchi or whatever; I do not worry about the quality or ride at all. One of the advantages of having over a dozen road bikes; I have tested the differences up close.
I do want good parts and with Ritchey Pro wheels and Ritchey seatpost, bar, stem and Full DuraAce; I feel nothing is second rate or house-brand (although the seat looks kinda strange - but easy to move seats around)
|Is Ritchey just rebadged Kalloy stuff? nm||divve|
Oct 30, 2003 10:49 AM
|No, but I don't no where.||sievers11|
Oct 30, 2003 11:02 AM
|Ritchey is lighter and better quality. I assume it is made in tiwan but ??
Also, kalloy has some good stuff, it is a really good value compaired to the overly techical and priced italian stuff, 3T, ITM and Deda. Not as sexy, but always less expensive and often lighter.
|If you want FULL DuraAce don't get that Motobecane||Poseur|
Oct 30, 2003 11:28 AM
|If it doesn't have DuraAce hubs and seatpost, it ain't full DuraAce.|
|and there's nothing collectable about a Motobecane...||russw19|
Oct 30, 2003 1:05 PM
|Not anymore at least. They haven't been collectable since they were last made in France with Reynolds 531 tubing, and even then, they weren't that great. Not when you could have gotten a Hetchins from England or a Gitane from France for the same price. Motobecane has never really made great frames, and the current models going around are just some shop in South Florida who bought the name and are selling cheap asian frames. The Kinesis frames they are selling are costing them about $65 before paint and decals... not a single thing special about them.
But if you can get a full Dura-Ace bike for $1700 retail, it's got to have some cheaper parts on it. I just priced a full Dura-Ace 10 kit from Trek. Everything except a frame and fork. All D-A 10, Deda Newton bars and stem, Cinelli cork tape, Bonty Race X-Lite wheels (I hate these, but that's what they offer... but I could get Mavic K's for the same price...) Dura-Ace post, Selle Aspide Ti Saddle, Michelin Pro Race Tires, Bonty XXX tubes, and a Solo headset (wholesale is about same as a King) and it costs me $1800 wholesale with my hefty Trek discount. And that's no frame, no fork! So if you are getting a quote for $1700 for D-A 10, even if it's a Motobecane frame, get it and just throw the frame out. Or sell it for $100 and put it towards a nice Independent Fabrications Crown Jewel... something that's worth collecting.
I am not trying to bag on your hobby, but I think either one of two things is wrong here.... either that frame is a total piece of crap, as are most of the parts they are hanging on it, or you are being misquoted a price that nobody will be able to deliver on.
|So you are another LBS mad at online seller! you should be fair||collectorvelo|
Oct 30, 2003 1:56 PM
|first, I have both old and new versions of Motobecanes - and both are better than my old Gitanes and Peugeots. plus the new Kinesis made frames that I have seen and have been written up in ALL major bike magazines are as nice as any frame made in Taiwan - including Specialized, Trek, Felt, etc
but that does not seem to be your problem; you object to 'consumers' getting low prices by buying online. You hate that sellers like bikesdirect, supergo, coloradocyclist and others can offer a better deal than you can!
I am sorry but this is the nature of commerce today -- and it is good for everyone but the old fashion retailers who can not or will not compete
anyway, thanks - you have convinced me - When I get Full DuraAce, a 2.7 lb frame, a carbon fiber fork, and Ritchey Pro wheels and stem, etc for $1695 - it is a deal! total bike weight is quoted at 17lbs - so I think I will be happy with that - and it will be riden this year and then saved as one of the first year DuraAce 10-speed bikes.
by the way, I think everyone should consider saving your bikes as I do; never sell your last years bike - then when you get to my age; you will have a great collection.
Of mine; my 1981 Motobecane le Champion is one of my favorites - and best made - better than my 1979 Colnago - thats for sure. Although I do still love the Colnago, the Gitane, and even that old raleigh international with chromed lugs!
|Man, you got issues...||russw19|
Oct 30, 2003 8:03 PM
|For someone who acts like they know a lot about me, you know nothing.
No, I am not an LBS, that is an establishment, I am a person. I have no issues with people getting good deals, but if you are going to get a good deal on a disposable frame, cool. If you really like that frame, I will get you all of them that you want, bare, no paint, no decals for $65. How many you want? It's a very cheaply built Kenesis frame.
If you are gonna get all up in arms over the history of Motobecane, should you really be buying this bike? It has absolutely ZERO to do with the original company! Some shop in South Florida paid for the name after the company went belly up. As for the company and their history, they were fine thru the 70's then in 1984 they made the same stupid nmistake that Puch made and dumped all their money and resources into mopeds. Funny how a very simaler move trying to make motorcycles nearly killed Cannondale 17 years later, huh?
As for if this new fashion commerce is good for anyone, who you gonna take that frame to when it cracks? Sure, buy all you want from a faceless computer... I bet they are super loyal to you when you have issues too.
By the way, I just checked the website.. they do have some nice specs on their bikes... but they list the Ultegra model for $2200.... $500 more than what you claim for Dura-Ace and it's still just Ultegra. What gives? The bike they list is sweet...except the frame and fork. But the parts list is great. I may buy one and toss the frame.... you want it?
One last question, what all major magazines have you read these glowing reviews in? I would like to see them. Are you sure you aren't just reading their own press in their ads? And are you sure you aren't being quoted 1695 pounds?
They aren't going to be selling any full Dura-Ace bikes for $1700... you can't get the parts that cheap from Shimano. If they are making D-A 10 bikes that cheap, again, I will buy them for the parts and give you all the frames you want.
Oh, and for the record, I call BS! on your price quote for a 2004 full Dura-Ace bike. I think you are full of crap.
|Yup, a pretty dumb move on C'Dale's part (nm)||AJS|
Oct 31, 2003 2:30 AM
|i may have issues - but at least i know what i am talking about||collectorvelo|
Oct 31, 2003 2:52 AM
you have so many incorrect points; it is hard to know where to start.
Motobecane was in the Moped businees before they made bikes - and they are still sold all over; Mopeds and bikes.
Second, the bike magazines that happen to think the Kinesium frame that Motobecane uses is great includes Bicycling, Mountain Bike Action, Mountain Biking, Road, Cycle & Fitness, and Bike. Maybe you do not like these magazines; but why not just go lookup the current issue of Road. If you can get 2.7 lb Kinesium frames at $65 - you can build a big business selling them online -
Third, pricing is not fixed - discounts happen. Bikesdirect offered me the new Full DuraAce le Champion Team for $1695. If you do not believe me; email them and ask maybe they will do the same for you -- or maybe my offer was due to me being a previuos customer. either way, I have ordered it - when it arrives I will pay that amount and I will have a great bike with a frame that I judge as being as good as any aluminum frame (and after 30 years on road bikes I know a little)
I am truely sorry that you are mad that your 'inside industry' deal is no better than hard shopping consumers can do. But that is the new economy; look at cameras, computers, DVDs, etc - if you shop hard on the net you can get new stuff for about dealer cost. It has been that way on bike parts for 20 years and is just now moving into bikes. I think it's a good thing; sorry if you dislike consumers getting deals (but no reason to make ugly statements about frames or bikes you have never seen or riden - I assume you have never ridden a 2004 Motobecane le Champion - whereas ROAD magazine has done a complete road test - who should consumers beleive? A mad bike dealer or an industry magazine?)
|Is this whole thread a spam?||Poseur|
Oct 31, 2003 9:50 AM
|I still don't see how someone who is peeing their pants to get their hands on the newest FULL DuraAce can thinking about buy a bike that isn't FULL DuraAce.
This whole thread is fishy.
The original post sounds just too excited about DuraAce. A little too exited about Bikesdirect.
|do you really? you haven't shown it here.||russw19|
Oct 31, 2003 10:42 AM
|I love how you make stupid uninformed statements and then follow them with "I assume" it really does follow the axiom about that phrase in your case. You are an internet troll trying to drum up some business for Motobecane. I said it before and I will say it again, your claimed price for a full Dura-Ace 10 speed bike is BS. I know this because contrary to your assumption, my 'inside industry' deals are that good.
And just to let you know, you should check your facts, Bicycling Magazine said that the Motobecane "lacks the ride refinement you'll find on more expensive frames."
Not such a glowing review is it? They liked the parts, but then that makes total sense, as Motobecane is not responsible for that. Shimano is. And yes, I have riden that POS frame. It's nothing special, which brings me full circle to my original statement that set you off on your troll rage... it's not collectable! But I guess since you are trying to convince the entire internet that Motobecanes are the greatest frame ever, you didn't really want to hear that. Oh well, too bad it's true.
Lastly, regarding your statement about who should people believe??? Bike magazines are in the business of selling magazines, not bikes. They make money thru two ways.. selling subscriptions and magazines, and SELLING ADS! Have you ever seen a major bicycling magazine totally trash a product they reviewed? NO. They won't either. They have to be subtle about it so that company still advertises with them. Dirt Rag is about the only exception. If you think anyone at Bicycling is going to call a bike that is a POS a POS, they are gonna lose some advertising dollars. But that was a nice try for you to make a point... too bad it's a completely ignorant statement. I am not a mad bike dealer.. I honestly hope more people go out an buy those crap bikes of yours. That way, after they figure out they suck as bad as they do, they come to me and get a real bike like a Moots or a Pinarello. I would fully encourage people to buy the lowest of the low of the bargin basement frames... you get what you pay for. And the thought of you saving it as a collector's item is just the icing on my cake.
|Bike dealers are really mad at the internet arent they?||collectorvelo|
Oct 31, 2003 11:57 AM
|I put up a simple post to try to find the best deal on what I consider a Full 10-speed Dura Ace bike (Brakes, shifters, crank, BB, chain, cog, frt and rear der). Like most people I think of the wheels as special items outside the Group; Mavic, Ritchey, or whatever.
I clearly state I am open to buying from anyone with a good deal; supergo, bikesdirect, coloradocyclist, GVH, whoever. Brand is not that important to me; could be Felt, motobecane, douglas, whatever - I think all aluminum frames that are made in taiwan ride OK (only Reynolds frames ride in a superior way to me)
And in all of that; what I get is a bunch of junk about everyone's opinion about way I should spend more! Strange unless these responses are from bike shops that can not meet online pricing.
Then this thing over Motobecane - unreal! Most everyone knows that kinesis builds frames for Specialized and Felt and several "Italian" brands" -- what a joke to think that a sticker matters? Of course, I understand that dealers will not like brands like Fuji, Motobecane, Douglas, or KHS for selling online. But the idea that quality is bad because the company allows discount selling is wacked.
But at least from this post I have concluded that A new DuraAce bike at anywhere under $1800 or so is a great deal.
And all I wanted was a first year issue 10-speed DuraAce bike - I will still mainly ride the Reynolds bikes anyway.
|About $1000....less hubs||coonass|
Oct 31, 2003 1:56 PM
|http://www.totalcycling.com/ ($612 + shipping); all but the shifters & hubs, but you can get the shifters from other Europe sites for about $300.....and I believe that the Postal Team were using the 2004 group in this year's TDF......|
|About $1000....less hubs||brerabbit|
Oct 31, 2003 8:06 PM
|Where can you get the Dura Ace 10spd shifters?|
|About $1000....less hubs||coonass|
Nov 1, 2003 5:21 AM
keep in mind that their prices are in England's Pound-sterling (~1.45 factor = $321.) I didn't include the brakes/headset, but I could switch over without needing those...here is another site that is pretty much Shimano/Campy specific and has about as good a deal as Europe's (and won't have to pay ~$30 shipping): http://www.comparisonpricing.com/. Personally, I'll wait until next year and decide if I need the 10th sprocket ( I also have Record10 on another bike, and I do seem to enjoy the closer gear-ratio when shifting)