Sep 22, 2003 11:31 AM
|I was wondering what pressure a 12g cartridge will get a 700x23 tire up to? I only see specs for 700x25 tires. I was also wondering if (using something like an innovations air chuck) it is hard to air up a tire without loosing a good amount of the CO2 (I have never used CO2 at all). Right now I ride with a mini-pump from my MTB but I tried airing up a tire that was at 90psi (just to see if I could) and it is nearly impossible to put any air in without loosing more than I put in, so I decided it was time for a change. I was thinking of the lightest/smallest CO2 solution (innovations air chuck with 2 12g or 16g cartridges) and a light back up pump for when I run out of cartridges or to put the first few psi of air in to make sure I still don't have a leak. Most of the frame pumps are just too big and heavy. Has anyone ever used the Innovations Road Air pump? It is only 98g and supposedly pumps up to 160psi. One last question, what is the lowest you would want to run your road tires to get back home? I thought of an innovations Second Wind (CO2 with backup mini pump in one) but they will only pump to 75psi. Would I just get a pinch flat again? BTW, I weight 165 and usually have my tires at F/R 105/115psi. Thanks.|
|re: Pump/Air/CO2 questions||StmbtDave|
Sep 22, 2003 11:43 AM
|I use a CO2 air chuck but I'm not sure of the brand. It requires threaded bottles but it's small and works great. You can screw the collar down and seal tightly on a presta stem. When you screw in the bottle it punctures it and seals it so no CO2 escapes. You then unscrew the bottle slightly to release the CO2. You can be sure the tire bead seats before you release the full bottle. A 16g bottle is more than I need for a 700x23. If I used the full bottle I bet it would be 120 lbs or more. I just bought a couple 12g bottles and the LBS told me it would go to 80-90 lbs. I haven't had to try them yet so I can't verify that. You still better carry a pump for those multiple flats.
|re: Pump/Air/CO2 questions||biknben|
Sep 22, 2003 12:03 PM
|You can get 80-100 PSI with the 12g cartridges. It varies due to tire volume. The greater the volume the lower the pressure. Every brand/model of tire is a little different so you will see fluctuations even in tires of the same size. In many cases it depends on how much of the compressed air actually gets into the tire. Typically some squeezes out between the inflator and the valve and you loose that added pressure.
I prefer trigger type inflators. I know the chuck types work but I've seen a higher rate of problems with them. The trigger inflators can also be used with non-threaded cartridge which are significantly cheaper.
Since you already have the mini-pump I'd use that to get the pressure up to a certain point. Then use the CO2 to finish the job. That way you get full pressure without wasting cartridges. Additionally, if you mess up the CO2 you at least have the pump for backup.
Sep 22, 2003 1:49 PM
|I agree on the non-threaded cartridge. I can get a 10 pack at the paint-ball store for $5.|
|re: Pump/Air/CO2 questions||pmf1|
Sep 22, 2003 12:45 PM
|I can get around 90+ lbs in a 700x23 tire with a 12 gram CO2 pump. Its not as good as my floor pump at home, but as good or better than I can do with a mini pump which I found really annoying to use.
I would recommend a trigger type pump over one that requires a threaded cartridge. You can get more CO2 in the tire with a trigger system. Plus the cartridges are significantly cheaper at Wal Mart or a sporting goods store that sells air guns.
I also recommend using a valve extender. Just keep it attached to one of the valves and you'll never forget it. Using one helps when the tube is deflated and there's not much valve sticking out. I find this especially useful on deeper rims such as those on Ksyriums.
Lastly, forget about saving 73 grams. A trigger applicator and 3-4 12 gram cartridges are still lighter than a mini pump. Carry extras because if you run out, you're in for a long walk home.
Sep 22, 2003 3:25 PM
|I just weighed a 16g CO2 cartridge and my Zefal frame pump.
One 16g CO2 cartridge weighs 60g. The frame pump weighs 250g. So a couple CO2's and the inflator should be about the same as a cheap mini-pump.
If you're going to use valve extenders, prewrap the tube's valve threads with teflon tape. I always gets leaks unless I use the tape.
I agree a tripper type system like the Ultraflate works better than the Innovations Superlight threaded head. The pump on the Second Wind will keep you busy for about 1/2 hour trying get to 70 psi.
Sep 22, 2003 4:44 PM
|I didn't know they weighed that much. I guess it is really silly to carry CO2 and a 100-150g mini-pump for backup then. 2 CO2 and the lightest air chuck would have you at 160g and then a mini-pump would push you up to 260g-310g. I guess the best idea is go full CO2 (fast but somewhat risky) or forget the CO2 and go with a pump like the Topeak Road Morph (230g) or the lightest weight solution and go with something like the innovations Road Air pump (98g) which would be a pain to use, but would probably work (unlike the mini-pump I have now). Cost of the cartridges is not really an issue for me if I decided to go CO2 because I probably would not be using very many of them. In thousands of miles mountaing biking I never had a flat on the trail and in 1 year of road biking my wife has not had any.|
Sep 23, 2003 12:01 PM
|SKS Teleskop minipump weighs under 100g (I don't remember exact weight), costs around then 10$ and
The only 2 drawbeks is ugly frame mount (but it perfectly feet into jesey pocket) and absence of gauge (but would you really expect it for this price)
|Silca Impero large frame pump = 175 gm||Kerry Irons|
Sep 22, 2003 5:28 PM
|And it's a better pump that a Zefal. Plus, it doesn't have that hideous rattle and it actually stays in place on the frame. The time spent pumping with this pump is a small fraction of the total time to change a flat. And you look like you could use some upper body work anyway :)|
|Silca Impero large frame pump = 175 gm||lemmy999|
Sep 22, 2003 6:43 PM
|>And you look like you could use some upper body work anyway :)
???? What gives you that impression?
|re: Pump/Air/CO2 questions||lemmy999|
Sep 22, 2003 5:02 PM
|Is there any reason that a valve extender with a regular tube is better or worse than just a tube with a longer stem like these:
Sep 23, 2003 5:38 AM
|Buying tubes with long stems is silly. They cost more than regular tubes and they're harder to find. Every bike shop has regular tubes, but not always tubes with extended valves. Even less people carry them. So if you're out riding with your buddies and need to borrow a tube, chances are, none of them will have one. Ditto for the sag wagon on the local century.
I've been using valve extenders for years on various wheels. Its the way to go.
And thanks for all the humorous posts on how much a mini pump vs. CO2 cartridges weigh. Christ, a couple hundred grams is not going to make any difference. You guys are taking this way to seriously.
Sep 23, 2003 7:19 AM
|If you have that "couple of hundred grams is not going to make any difference" on everything on the bike, then you end up lots of extra weight. If you have this attitude on wheels, pump/CO2, saddle, and mini-tool then you are around 2lbs heavier already. I could have saved $600 and gotten a 20lb bike instead of an 18lb bike. Anyway, a point was just being made that some may go to CO2 because they think it is lighter and this is obviously not the case.
I don't think long stem tubes are stilly because they are only about 40 cents more (a few dimes won't break the bank) and I carry my own spares (don't depend on others and don't usually do group rides anyway). The sag wagon is a good point though. But all I have to do is carry the little nut that screws on a short stem tube and it will hold the stem up enough for me to get a pump on it.
|Its function over weight||pmf1|
Sep 23, 2003 8:55 AM
|Actually, I really doubt you'd notice it if your bike was 2 lbs heavier. That's probably less than one full water bottle weighs. I assume you are, like 99.9% of the people here, a recreational rider, then a couple hundred grams isn't going to kill you. Do you buy latex tubes, light weight tires, tiny little pedals that are uncomfortable, ride with a hairnet, etc. etc. ? I probably carry more tools than most folks, but its out of experience. Ever broke a chain 35 miles from home? You only do it once. Ever mounted the spare tube only to discover it has a hole in it? I always carry two tubes along with a patch kit. Ever bonked 15 miles from a rest stop during a century?
You can save $600 on a heavier bike, but you still have to carry stuff in case of a breakdown. Kinda like a computer and software. Spend all your money on the computer and then what do you do with it?
The only real reason to switch to CO2 is that its so much easier than pumping a tire with a stupid minipump.
Long stem tubes are definitely silly IMO. The nut will not hold up a stem in several sets of wheels I have high enough to get the CO2 dispenser attached properly so it won't leak (i.e., Rev-X, Ksyriums, Aerolights). Spend $5 on an extender, leave it on the wheel and never have the problem, or continue to have to mess around with long stemmed tubes and hope someone has them when you really need them. That time will come some day ... trust me.
Do whatever you want, I could care less. I was just trying to give you an alternative that I've found works pretty well. I've been riding bikes for a long time. Everything in my bag has saved me a long walk home several times over. And its even appreciated by some dumbass like yourself, broken down on the side of the road that I help out because he's too worried about a couple grams or not having a tiny seatbag to carry the right tools and supplies.
|Its function over weight||lemmy999|
Sep 23, 2003 9:33 AM
|why wouldn't you carry 3 tubes. What if one has a hole and you pinch the other one? Why not carry 2 pumps because a pump can always break and you can run out of CO2. Why not carry a spare folded tire because if you slice one open, a tube won't help you. Maybe you should carry two because whatever sliced open one tire might get the other one too.
The nut holds the stem up just fine on my Race Lite wheels. My floor pump was stuck and pulled the stem out, I changed the tube and it was a short stem, used the nut and it worked fine. I was at an LBS the next day and all of the tubes they had (they only had one kind in the range of 700x23) were the long stem. So that is what I purchased. I wasn't planning on buying tubes or extenders for your wheels anyway.
I don't use latex tubes and I use regular tires. I do have small pedals (BeBop) but it is because I hated Looks...I wanted some REAL float. They are not uncomfortable at all. If you shoes are stiff enough it won't matter how large or small your pedals are. If you were in an elevator (which has a stiff floor) and there was a 2 foot or a 1 foot shaft pushing the elevator up, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference while standing inside. If hot spots are a problem, either your shoe isn't stiff enough or it is all in your mind. Yes I have had broken chains, but I have never ridden without a chain tool.
I don't know where you have gotten the idea that I am not prepared. I have been biking a while myself and never been stranded. I am always complaining to my wife because she goes off riding without a pump, tube, CO2 or mini-tool just always assuming someone else would have what she needs. I presently carry a camelback, pump, regular patch kit, Alien multi-tool, spare tube, inhaler (asthma), tire levers, ID, insurance card, $5, credit card, spare keys, presta/schrader adapter, cell phone, a small piece of an old tire (if the tire gets sliced) and the most important thing for me, food.
Sep 23, 2003 10:03 AM
|I was making fun of the folks complaining about weight more than anything else. Didn't mean to get personal.
I see so many "pro" riders on the trails around here that I get cynical. You know, the guys in team apparel, aero bars, no helmet and too cool to carry anything with them.
I do find the nut works fine for my floor pump on most of my wheels, but not as well as the CO2 dispenser. It sucks to lose half your CO2 and have to waste another cartridge because the seal isn't so good.
And as for your wife ... women can get away with that. Mine takes a pump, but I've never seen her fix a flat. I don't think she knows how.
Sep 23, 2003 11:56 AM
|Well, your point with the valve extender is a good one. I wouldn't mind going that route...but believe it or not, before this thread I had never heard of or paid attention to them. One last question about them though. Do you put the valve extender on both tubes or do you just keep it on one and then swap it to the other one if you need to air it up. I guess I am asking is it a semi-permanent thing, or is it sort of a temporary thing (like the schrader/presta adapter) that people just leave on one of the stems because it is a convenient way to store it.
I definitely couldn't be one of those "pro" riders...murphy's law gets me every time. I am convinced that if I went on one ride without a patch kit I would get a flat when I was the longest distance form the car. I am fairly new to road biking, but those road shoes definitely made me realize that walking back even 1-2 miles is not a very good option.
Yeah, I don't think my wife knows how to change a flat either. She claims she is interested in learning some of the basic repairs for the road, but when I try to show her things she is never interested.
Sep 25, 2003 10:46 AM
|I just leave an extender screwed into the rear wheel of every bike I own. You really only need one. I used to stick it in my bag, but I think its easier just leaving it on the wheel.
Yeah, when my wife gets a flat we pull over, she looks at me and sits down while I fix the flat. I should make her do it for practice, but I'm happy she rides with me.
|re: Pump/Air/CO2 questions||Stepan|
Sep 22, 2003 1:59 PM
|I have been thinking about getting one of the Innovation CO2 pumps but which one??