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Interesting link: Chris King talks about integrated headsets(23 posts)

Interesting link: Chris King talks about integrated headsetsSynchronicity
Sep 11, 2003 7:36 PM
re: Interesting link: Chris King talks about integrated headsetszero85ZEN
Sep 11, 2003 10:08 PM
As a long time shop rat I have to say that I've never been a fan of the integrated headset. I knew it didn't save any weight and this article points out all the other reasons why it is a BAD design. What really gets me is how many compact frames have integrated headsets. Two BAD silly designs makeing for some really, IMHO, crappy bike frames. Interesting to see companies such as Trek and Colnago staying away from these two questionable trends in frame design. (Trek uses internal headsets and with Lemond frames they've gone with a semi compact...hope that is as far as they go with those designs....)
Trek and Lemond are using low stack traditionals headsets now...russw19
Sep 12, 2003 12:30 PM
For 2004 both Trek and Lemond (same company) will be using traditional headsets with headset cups pressed into the frame. They may be using low stack designs, but I was told by my rep that they dropped the idea of internal headsets because they did see some aluminium Treks coming back under warranty with out of round headtubes.

The design didn't save any weight and it wasn't any more aerodynamic in wind tunnel tests. Some people thought it looked nicer, but that was the only real advantage.

Sep 12, 2003 5:16 PM
I was close to buying a Trek 2300 aluminum bike last year, but DQ'd it because of the integrated headset.
re: Interesting link: Chris King talks about integrated headsetskneebreaker
Sep 11, 2003 10:23 PM
Ok. This is the way I see it.

Chris King is a company that needs to make money. Yes they are a very reputable company with a great headset.

Problem. They do not hold the patent to the integrated headset that cane creek makes. There are only two major types of integrated headsets. The cane creek is (FSA orbit style) and the Campagnolo style. Most manufacturers use the Cane creek style. It is now late for King to design a new type of internal headset. King would rather close its doors than to pay royalties to Cane creek for using their design. Only thing King can do is convince people to buy standard headset. If you look at most manufacturers of any product they will always say or do anything to survive. I love the king headset on my 2000 trek fuel but so far my IS6 Cane creek has worked flawlessly on my road bike.
Only time will tell.....Synchronicity
Sep 11, 2003 10:45 PM
Being a skeptic & thus having cynical thoughts about everything I have to agree with Chris King on this one. But having said that, I don't have an integrated-headset bike! So it may just be a case of "I don't want my Kestrel to become obsolete" bias.

I'm sick of people introducing new "standards".

Someone once said: "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them!"

Now Deda's introduced their own handlbar clamp standard (31.7 or 31.8 or whatever). WHEN WILL IT END?

Now I don't mind companies inventing new parts, expecially when they're radically different, but **so long as they work with the frame I have currently**. There used to be so many seatpost clamp diameters it wasn't funny, now everyone seems to have settled on 27.2 and I reckon that too will eventually change.

See I think it is nice to have parts that will work ten or 15 years down the track, because the clamping standard hasn't changed, etc.

I DO agree that integrated headsets look much nicer, but I was under the impression that they were about 50 - 100 grams lighter.
Having said that, the general trend with BBs seems to be to space the bearings as far apart as possible, and looking at the Chris King diagrams, that principle seems to be accomplished with the current threadless headset design.
I don't think sofiltersweep
Sep 12, 2003 5:07 AM
"Only thing King can do is convince people to buy standard headset."

It isn't like there is a choice- the frame determines the headset- and you don't think for a minute that there will be a grassroots campaign to bring back standard headsets.

I find it interesting how quickly manufactures ran from threaded setups to standard headsets to integrated/internal. Some mid-level 2000 bikes still had a pile of chrome and a quill stem.

BTW- Cane Creek has positioned themselves as the cheapo supplier for built bikes. I don't think I've ever seen a factory bike with a King headset.
Not really, Chris King already pays to license threadless...Fez
Sep 12, 2003 7:13 AM
Cane Creek/Diacompe holds the patent for the conventional threadless system. Chris King and all others have to pay a licensing fee for conventional threadless headsets. I think Shimano is the only one who refuses to license it, so all they offer is threaded headsets.

King must have other reasons not to make a zero-stack compatible headset. Maybe it is because they want to sell the Perdido, a supposed open standard. Besides a link on their website, I have never seen the Perdido.

Chris King needs to convince frame manufacturers, not consumers, as to what type of headset to use. And since I almost never see King headsets as OEM parts, it appears like they are pissing into the wind on this.
re: Interesting link: Chris King talks about integrated headsetsrussw19
Sep 12, 2003 12:37 PM
When Cannondale was trying to come up with a headset for their Saeco bikes, they approached King first... King told them it was a bad idea and didn't want to touch it. Cannondale then went to Campy and they gladly designed an internal headset. They wanted to get a jump on Shimano for a new headset design.

Also, I would put more stock into the fact that major companies like Trek and it's affiliates (Lemond, Fisher, and Klein) are dropping the internal headset from their lines as it didn't have any real advantage but did have the very real disadvantage that King brought up. The internal design is not any lighter nor anymore aerodynamic. It was just hype.

As for the paying royalties part, that's a bunch of bunk... King pays royalties every day to Dia-Comp for the threadless design.

10000 miles with an integrated headset and yes..morency
Sep 11, 2003 11:49 PM
creaking, greasing, creaking, greasing, creaking..., greasing doesn't help me anymore.
I've been thinking about putting some grease in my ears instead.
And at high speeds the frame starts vibrating in the front..
re: Interesting link: Chris King talks about integrated headsetsFatnslow
Sep 12, 2003 5:18 AM
That's what I've been saying all along. Many of the advances made in bikes (i.e. threadless headsets and indexed shifters) have been fairly beneficial, however, this one is just plain dumb.
Have to add somethingFatnslow
Sep 12, 2003 5:49 AM
I bought a bike with a integrated headset because I didn't know any better. Time will tell what will happen down the road but the cobination of a 23+ pound rider and charlotte's awful roads will, no doubt, test the durability of my headset.

It seems to me that manufacturers are wanting to engineer some "planned obsolescence" into their frames, or, more precisely, planned failure. What happens when your bike is rattling and squeaking unbearably after 1000 miles? You buy a new frame or bike. There's a little more money in the manufacturers pocket.

Does that sound a little too much like a conspiracy theory? Where's my tinfoil hat?
Unrelated, but Chris King moves to PortlandDropped
Sep 12, 2003 7:04 AM
The King bicycle component company is moving their operations from NorCal to Portland, Oregon. Not really related to the thread, but given how bad the economy is in Portland right now, it's good news for us. Even better that it is a company that makes great stuff, like King.
Do you know where they will be located? (nm)GFocker
Sep 12, 2003 7:09 AM
are you sure?gtx
Sep 12, 2003 8:04 AM
they put a lot into that near facility near Redding. Where did you hear this and do you know why?
Front page of the business section in the OregonianDropped
Sep 12, 2003 9:27 AM
There is a big story on the front page of today's business section. The company had a hard time getting executive types to move to Redding. They are currently fixing up a warehouse in the industrial NW section of town. They looked at a lot of areas by loved the quality of life and bike friendly nature of this town.
That's great news for Portland. Thanks (nm)GFocker
Sep 12, 2003 9:32 AM
interesting. thanks for the link. nmgtx
Sep 12, 2003 3:33 PM
Has anyone seen a Chris King Perdido headset?Fez
Sep 12, 2003 7:15 AM
It was supposed to be King's open standard on an internal headset. Yes, yet another standard in headsets!

They even said zero-stack standard systems could be modified to accept this standard.

I have never seen one.
Keep in mind what an "open standard" is...russw19
Sep 12, 2003 12:54 PM
This means that they truely believe that this idea of internal headsets is soooo bad that they are willing to manufacture a new design and openly give the drawings to anyone who wants to use them. The Perdido uses smaller bearings than a regular headset so the bearings will wear out faster, but the idea is to put a cup between your frame and a bearing that will otherwise destroy it. The price you have to pay for a long life with your frame will be a shorter life with your bearings. If you call King and ask them about this, they will tell you the truth. But they spent time, energy, and money to design something that would save frames, and are willing to give that design away to all takers just because they really feel the design is that bad.

And the reason you don't see too many Perdido headsets is that by the time someone realizes that they need one, their internal headset may have already destroyed their frame.
good for TT bikesDougSloan
Sep 12, 2003 8:28 AM
As noted by Cervelo on it's site, one legitimate use of integrated or concealed headsets is certain time trial bike frames, where low stack height is beneficial in getting a low aero position. This probably applies to less then .1% of bikes made, though.

re: Interesting link: Chris King talks about integrated headsetslemmy999
Sep 12, 2003 7:59 PM
My wife and I both bought 2002 Klein road bikes so while the 2003 bikes were out. The two main reason were 1) we got good deals and 2) had traditional headset instead of integrated. If there is a new standard that offers no advantages, then I am always a little suspicious.
the 2004 aluminum treks have IH...nothatgullible
Sep 13, 2003 8:37 AM
If you go to treks website and checkout the 2300 bike it has an integrated headset. Since they already have the Madone and the other new bikes on the page, I am guessing that those are their 2004 models. From what it seems they are still going to use the integrated headset on aluminum.