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Paul Sherwin's comments about Jan's wheels(14 posts)

Paul Sherwin's comments about Jan's wheelsridewt
Jul 22, 2003 5:47 AM
In yesterday's Tour coverage, Paul Sherwin commented that Jan had made a poor choice for a mountain stage by using deep dish Carbon wheels because they are too rigid for best descending capabilities. I have not heard of this before. In fact, I've heard that deep aero wheels are much faster than standard wheels. Anyone have any comments about whether such wheels are hard to control while descending?
re: Paul Sherwin's comments about Jan's wheelseschelon
Jul 22, 2003 5:55 AM
The only disadvantage is that the Lightweight Wheels brand that Jan was riding on are not very stiff due to the extreme light weight and mountains tend to be much windier than the lower altitudes and therefore are harder to keep under control due to cross winds. I did notice that comment and find his comment to be erroneous.
my guess is that Paul has never ridden carbon wheelsDougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 6:26 AM
Paul didn't have a clue what he was talking about, stating that carbon wheels would be "too rigid" for long descents. Yes, deep carbon wheels can be very rigid, but not necessarily. I have some Velomax Ascent Pros, with Lew carbon rims, that are the squirreliest wheels I've ever ridden. OTOH, Zipp 404's are very stiff. Keep in mind, we are talking about lateral stiffness here, which is what makes a wheel feel good in corners and when out of the saddle.

Jan's problem, as I noted yesterday in another thread, is that some, especially older, all carbon wheels have horrible braking surfaces, at least with some brake pads. They tend to be very grabby and unpredictable, which is the problem Jan had a couple of years ago. Now, they treat the surface with ceramic, and have improved brake pads to match. They still aren't quite as good as aluminum, but vastly improved.

I think the wind problem is very overblown (hehe). I've ridden a Zipp disc, Zipp 404, Zipp 303, the Velomax, Ksyriums, among others, in strong gusty winds, and I have to say the ones affected most by the wind were the Ksyriums. I didn't have the slightest problem with the disc and 404.

Doug
Interesting comment that the Ksyriums were the most affected...jtferraro
Jul 22, 2003 6:38 AM
by the wind. One would think the disc would be, then the 404's, then the 303's, and least the Ksyriums. Maybe it's attributable to the bladed spokes on the Ksyriums, or do you think it has to do w/lateral stiffness.

Just curious, as I presently have only 1 set of 700c wheels.

Thanks,

-Jeff
front onlyDougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 7:05 AM
I only notice wind effects on the front. Never had a problem with the rear, even with a disc.

Don't know why the K's are affected, but it has nothing to do with stiffness -- it's purely aerodynamics. My guess is that it's the big flat spokes.

Doug
Hmmmmpmf1
Jul 22, 2003 9:19 AM
Try riding some Spinergy Rev-X wheels in a good cross wind. They'll get your attention real fast when that front wheel starts to wobble. Never had that problem with Ksyriums.

I know Jan owns a pair of ADA wheels. Maybe that's what he was using. I recall a few years ago he swapped bikes (it was planned) at the top of a mountain because the wheels were not suitable for the descent. They looked the same -- kind of a deep dish type wheel. I think the problem was lack of stiffness for cornering, not being too stiff.
brakingDougSloan
Jul 22, 2003 10:02 AM
I recall reading several articles that braking was the problem. Can't find them now.

Doug
It was the 1997 TDFboneman
Jul 22, 2003 1:12 PM
He was riding ADA's at the time and was having problems descending. Riis, by that time having relinquished the leadership role, was leading him on the descents and the comment by Riis and Godefroot was that the wheels were too light for stable descending. It's been said before by some pro's so just passing it on. Cork pads were used then, pre-composite pad days and they didn't grab, they just didn't work that well. The grabby bit came later with more effective materials.

The big problem happened on the mountain stage in which Festina basically blew the Tour when they had Virenque, Dufaux and ?? up the road together in a break and for some reason didn't press their advantage.
I remember something...mohair_chair
Jul 22, 2003 6:53 AM
I remember something from 1996 or 1997 when the carbon wheels Telekom was using actually came apart in some way at some point during the race. It wasn't catastrophic, obviously, but it was enough that they stopped using them and threw them in the dustbin. I'll bet that is what Paul is basing his comments on. Telekom was doing a lot of experimentation back then, such as different gases in their tires. A lot of it never worked out.
re: Paul Sherwin's comments about Jan's wheelsChen2
Jul 22, 2003 9:11 AM
I too was surprised at Sherwin's comments about Jan's wheels. Aren't they the same type that Lance rode in the mountains during the last two TdF's? Up to that point I thought Paul's commentaries were better than Phil's. WTF?
I've heard that "Lightweight" wheels are $3000/wheel. And what are Lance's wheels this year? They look like Bontragers to me.
~Al
check them outpmf1
Jul 22, 2003 9:22 AM
http://www.ada.prorider.org/whatsnew.html
I think he was misunderstood by you guys...Dragon33
Jul 23, 2003 6:11 AM
He was not talking about wind or rotational speed. What he was talking about; was that when you have a stiffer wheel and begin steering the bike, the wheel will tend to slip out from under the bike in some cases (of course tires can affect this too). When the wheel does have certain anount of flex it will help to keep the tire patch squarely on the ground providing more grip while cornering.
IDougSloan
Jul 23, 2003 6:35 AM
I've never heard that; news to me nmDougSloan
Jul 23, 2003 6:36 AM