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Jun 18, 2003 6:30 AM
I am trying to get some help on choosing a group for my bike. I don't think I can aford top of the line (record or dura-ace). If you had the choice of Chorus or Ultegra, which would you go for? I won't be racing, just riding for fun on a steel frame. Seems like every production bike I look at comes standard with Shimano, anyone know why.

Back in the day you bought campy if you could get the cash to do so, I've been riding a set of campy hubs for 21 years. Have not ridden any other campy or shimano parts (currently ridding mix Sun tour, SR, Weinmann) Thanks for the help
oh boy, here we go....(nm)bigdeal
Jun 18, 2003 6:35 AM
Jun 18, 2003 6:41 AM
Its simple: 10 speeds vs. 9.

If you want it to last a long time, Campy has a better parts philosophy - not planned obsolesence. FYI - I tried for monthes to get Simano parts for my daughter's two year old Bianchi - couldn't find them, so had to "customize". What a pain....

Some like the design of the hoods better, too. I.e. more comfortable, hidden cables, etc.

(I like Campy 'cause its Italian ;-))

my opinionthe bull
Jun 18, 2003 6:42 AM
Ride both and see what YOURE opinion is as everyone likes different stuff.
Jun 18, 2003 6:45 AM
I have both chorus 10 and ultegra 9, both last year's kits.

there is a substantial price difference between kits, btw. you can get dura ace for a little more than the chorus kit. excel sports has chorus at $1299 and d/a at $1399. the ultegra kit is $999.

IMHO i've been disappointed so far with the quality of chorus. performance is up to par, but longevity/durability is not. i've beat the tar out of my ultegra bike since july of last year and it's asking for more. i've reserved the chorus bike for pleasant weather, albeit faster rides or a few longer ones, and the grouppo results have not been good. the front derailleur's finish is peeling off, the bb already needs replacement, and the left brake/shifter hood is split. i'm also not as pleased with the chorus shifting in comparison with ultegra, and yes, both bikes are tuned-in right. i will give the chorus brakes a good word, though--can't beat campy braking.

daytona/centaur is considered equivalent cost-wise to ultegra. i've ridden shimano 105, but never any campy other than chorus.

i'll hang ultegra on the next frame, and probably ultegra or d/a after that.

Practical and Functional DifferencesFez
Jun 18, 2003 10:04 AM
Aside from personal preferences, there are some practical and functional differences.

1. DA, Ultegra and 105 9 speed are all cross compatible with each other.

2. Only Record and Chorus are 100% compatible with each other. Some Centaur pieces, such as BB and crank are not compatible. As nice as Centaur is, I wouldn't consider the group because of the incompatibility.

3. Some of the exotic Campy carbon and titanium pieces are really expensive to replace. Aside from that, even a steel 10 speed Campy cassette and chain costs more than a Dura Ace equivalent. Maybe it matters, maybe it doesn't.
more:JS Haiku Shop
Jun 18, 2003 10:36 AM
shimano 9sp road components and mtb components can be intermixed. for example, xt rear der and cassette with ultegra everything else.

this makes for a very low gear. is campy's lowest combo 30x29? shimano's lowest is 30x34.
qualifierJS Haiku Shop
Jun 18, 2003 10:37 AM
shimano's lowest is 30x34 not counting non-default road chainring combos.
Jun 18, 2003 6:46 AM
You need to decide how you like shifting. That is the largest difference between the two systems. It is in the shifting mechanisms. Both groups are an excellent choice. Ultegra will save you some cash, and the Chorus will give you a little more fashion.
my experience - no comparison. Chorus (nm)terry b
Jun 18, 2003 6:46 AM
Jun 18, 2003 6:47 AM
chorus will definitely cost more, though. I think it's lighter than Ultegra (it is a bit heavier than DA). costwise, chorus is probably equivalent to DA - used to be a tad cheaper than DA but the dollar is pretty weak vs the euro.
Jun 18, 2003 7:01 AM
The 2004 version of Dura Ace will probably rival the cost of Record if not more. You can plan on paying over $400 for the crankset, and it isn't even carbon.
It's weak against the Yen as well! (nm)53T
Jun 18, 2003 10:06 AM
let's put it this way:weiwentg
Jun 18, 2003 11:41 AM
right now, Shimano's prices are reasonable, and Campy's are out of control. chances are, it's going to stay that way (although now that Shimano USA has just shot themselves in the foot, you never know).
re: CHORUS V ULTEGRAjtolleson
Jun 18, 2003 6:55 AM
I think that most folks will tell you that Chorus has a higher end feel, finish, and function (alliteration!) than Ultegra. If resale is important to you (though sounds like you keep your stuff a long time) it would help a little more on that front IMHO.

Having gone through the same analysis a while back, I wound up going Shimano (DA, not Ultegra) because of a probably irrational fear that I wanted easy access to repair, adjustments, etc. I do a lot of organized tours and centuries, and do some training rides in small towns and rural areas. I just thought that Shimano might be easier to always find a knowledgable LBS, etc.
Apples and Orangessievers11
Jun 18, 2003 7:05 AM
First...I race on this stuff, so for what it is worth performance means a lot to me as well as value, because I go through components like it is going out of style.

Second...Chorus and Ultegra are not the same level. Ultegra it comapareble to Centuar in weight/performance/price.

Chorus is comparable to Dura Ace, in reguards to weight/price/performance.

Record it a step away from any of shimano's offerings. The 2004 dura ace is a step towards campy record.

Third...I have been ridding shimano ultegra for two years and I hate it. It has many advantages, simple to opperate, good ergonomics, easy to wrench and cool factor. But, the shifting and overall performance is only slightly better than 105. For the complete group 105 is like not even 200 gm heavier. I would never never get ultegra again, I have gone through 2 right sti levers and completely ditched my rear derailer for dura ace. I like the feel of shimano's levers and I am rather deeply $$$ into shimano for all my wheels and parts and tools, so I am not going to switch to campy at this point. But if you do go this same route as me...

I am going to get all dura ace stuff for my racing bike, plan to use my ultegra to train on until it craps out. and then I am going to get a 105 group to train on. Don't laugh, but a bunch of racers around here use 105 and works. Oh yeah, they are cat 3's and whoop a$$.

to anwser your question...go with the chorus, it will last for ever.
Jun 18, 2003 7:12 AM
Over the past 3/4 years I've had DA, Ultegra, Record and Chorus 10.

What do I ride now? I just finished getting rid of all my Shimano stuff. Chorus and Record 10.

The main difference I've found is that my Campy stuff, once installed, has never seen return shop visits. All my Shimano stuff was seemingly in need of regular adjustments. Other *real* differences *not cosmetic* include different shaped hoods, different shifters, etc. I never liked having to push the levers all the way in to shift Shimano. I've got small hands. I broke a Shimano shifter that way. Pros for Shimano are that the shifting is silky whereas Campy slams in place. Also, should you go down, having the levers able to move in so far (as shifting) can potentially stop a break.

I've mentioned it before, neither is hands down absolutely better. Some prefer one, some prefer the other.

Go Campy.
Get the Chorus (nm)Ligon
Jun 18, 2003 7:17 AM
Check this place out!the bull
Jun 18, 2003 7:20 AM
William will match any price.
read this you will like it...sievers11
Jun 18, 2003 7:24 AM
My boss at our LBS it brothers with the owner of the Prime Alliace Racing team. They flew out to philly a few weeks ago to see the team race. Ride in the support car behind the lead group, la la la, I wish I went. But...

My boss was talking to the Prime Alliance Mechanic who was orinially from Des Moines where our shop is located and they were discussing the new record stuff that the team was racing on last year. A coment was made that ultegra levers only lasted like 3000 miles and most would start to have performance problems, the was based mostly off of information I had been feeding my boss about the Ultegra stuff I have been racing on locally in DSM. The Prime Alliance Mechanic shared my dis like of the ultegra levers, when little did they know that someone was listening in to their conversation...

The US VP for Shimano...I guess he got in a huff and totally discreditied his own products. He said that people have to know that ultegra and 105 are here (he puts a level hand very low) and that dura ace is way up here(he puts level hand as high as he can) He talked on and on about how dura ace was the only real racing and serious riding group they make. Ultegra and 105 are not for racing and mainly designed for the enthusiast. He said most people don't ride their ultegra stuff that much so if you can get you 2-3 year of riding out of them then they are happy. If it stops working before a year, they will replace.

Dude, you market your stuff as racing from 105 to Dura Ace...make a product that lasts already. You market ultegra as being almost as good as dura ace, when in reality ultegra and 105 are almost the same, and dura ace is "supposedly" off the charts better. I understand that dura ace is way way better, I know from experience, but shimano don't be two faced about it.

(one last note, the prime alliace car was riding fairly close with the navigator car, my boss watched as the navigator vehical tried to make a stupid move around the PA car like it was a race for the support cars. the navigator vehical flew in a full spin and slamed up against the barriers...all that anyone in the PA car could think is, "Oh, man are at those Colnagos OK." ...5 or 6 of the navigators bikes are worth way more than that new support car)
Jun 18, 2003 7:38 AM
I actually downgraded this year to Ultegra to save money. I like the group so far, but your comments have me concerned since I ride so much. I have never heard anyone having problems with the levers wearing out after 3000 miles, but I am curious as to whether or not anyone else has had a simliar instance of this. I hope I don't have a 3000 mile disposable group. BTW, I would wear out the springs in my Campy shifters around every 10,000 miles.
supporting mileage & numbersJS Haiku Shop
Jun 18, 2003 7:51 AM
since its inaugural ride on 5/16/02, my campy chorus 10 kit has 3901.63 miles on it. only once ridden in rain, and only for a few minutes.

since its inaugural ride on 9/4/02, my ultegra 9 kit has 3753.77 miles on it, not including trainer time, offroad practice for 'cross season, or actual cyclocross races.

in the past i've had to replace two shimano 105 shifters within the first year of use. this was a "known problem" and has reportedly been addressed with more recent shimano offerings.

of the two kits mentioned above (shimano ultegra 9/campy chorus 10), neither has needed a rebuild or replacement of the lever(s). knock on wood. please see above post reply for my opinions.
Is it safe to say...EagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 7:53 AM
That since your Ultegra is on your cyclecross bike that it takes more abuse than the Chorus?
much more abuse...JS Haiku Shop
Jun 18, 2003 8:02 AM
rain rides, snow, sleet, sub-freezing 12+ hour days in the saddle, mud & muck, trainer time, you get the picture. the manner in which ultegra weathered this abuse has made me devout. it was bought as a trainer/rain/beater/cyclocross bike, but became the mainstay because of durability and feel. i never planned to ride this bike long distances, but now i won't consider my other for rides over 125 miles.

fwiw i never had any problems with 105 except the shifters going belly up, and getting snobbed at by the fashion police. ultegra seems to shift better. i don't have ultegra brakes (avid canti brakes), so can't comment there.
more supporting mileage & numberstarwheel
Jun 18, 2003 12:16 PM
My Campy Chorus was bought new and installed in June 2001, with about 9600 miles on it since then. No mechanical problems or repairs, but I'm on my 3rd cassette and 4th chain -- soon to be replaced.

My Ultegra group is about 4 years old, with about 6000+ miles. No mechanical problems or repairs. I'm on my 2nd cassette, replaced mainly for different gearing, and 2nd chain -- soon to be replaced.
Is the important number more miles in less time on Chorus? nmdzrider
Jun 18, 2003 12:40 PM
closing in on 6000 miles...nazgul
Jun 18, 2003 8:01 AM
... with ultegra and all that I have had to replace were the chain and brake pads. This includes a collegiate season of racing (often in conditions resembling the belgian classics :). I will have to replace the cassette soon, but the rest has worked flawlessly.
Wow !the bull
Jun 18, 2003 8:22 AM
This is a Great-"Hey look I got 6k on my Ultegra"!
Sounds like your running on luck!
let's stick to facts and try to be helpful to original poster nmJS Haiku Shop
Jun 18, 2003 8:34 AM
Hey whats a good Shimano-Campy debate without a little childish noise rubbing ?!! : ) nmthe bull
Jun 18, 2003 8:40 AM
Wow !EagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 8:42 AM
I don't see why this should be that abnormal. I had a buddy who just upgraded to Ultegra after riding on Shimano 600 components for years. He rode those big bulky shifters for 1000s of miles. He never complained. They were still working up until the time he was hit by a car.
Of course you do53T
Jun 18, 2003 10:16 AM
I have about 10,000 miles on my Ultegra. I think I sprayed WD-40 in the shifters once. The plastic caps have rattled since day one. I've won enough money with them to replace them, but there is no need. BB's I've found to be a wear item, but the other components are very durable.

The poster who changed his RD from Ultegra to D/A gave me a chuckle, though.
What shop do you work for?slide13
Jun 18, 2003 5:00 PM
I was just wondering what shop you work for, I'm from the area.
I hate these debates but......A question for Campy peopleDave Hickey
Jun 18, 2003 7:28 AM
Will you Campy guys give me an OBJECTIVE reason why Record is so much better than Dura Ace? Don't tell me about being able to rebuild Campy. I'm interested in why it performs better. There are pro's and con's to both groups but the comparison of Chorus vs DA is total bull sh!t. DA is not a second tier group. If that was true, all pro teams would insist on Record for their bikes. I understand how sponsorship works but if Record had that kind of a performance advantage, all pros would be using Record.
It's lighter. How much more objective does it get?TJeanloz
Jun 18, 2003 7:34 AM
It's also more flexible in cassette offerings. It also has 10 speeds. It is also fully rebuildable (which becomes more of an issue the more you ride).

The comparison of Chorus to Dura-Ace is very apt, because Chorus utilizes almost exactly the same mechanics (bearing quality, etc) as Record, but at a slightly heavier weight. It also has one more speed than Dura-Ace. What advantage does Dura-Ace have over Chorus?

I will concede that the Shimano BB design is superior to the square taper that Campy offers, but that's the only improvement that I can see.
It's lighter. How much more objective does it get?EagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 7:41 AM
I find that Dura Ace bottom brackets tend to wear faster than Record bottom brackets though too.
Well...(facts only)the bull
Jun 18, 2003 7:43 AM
Record uses the best materials!
It is lighter!
Chorus is closly related to Record.
Unlike Ultegra that is closly related to 105.
The chours Groupset uses aluminum alloy insted of carbon fiber.
Picture Dura-ace using carbon fiber then calling the aluminum stuff that is now Dura-ace Ultegra(But they dont).Get the picture.
Well...(facts only)EagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 7:51 AM
This is a good point, and something that I have often wanted to ask Shimano. Campagnolo is really good about passing their technology down to the group underneath it. Shimano isn't ever consistent in doing that. I like both Campagnolo and Shimano. I prefer Campagnolo, but it does break my bank. My next group will probably be Centaur. That way I have quality Campagnolo at an affordable cost that doesn't break me. I think when you race and take a chance of destroying your components in one crash, which I have done in the past, the cost of the wreck can keep you off the bike for a while if you use higher end stuff. My last wreck cost me over $600 to replace. My Record Ergo lever cracked the carbon houseing that the covers the mechanism. It didn't shift right with the crack. There was other damage to the components as well.

In terms of the Ultegra shifters. They should last longer than 3000 miles considering the price compared to Dura Ace. Is there really that much difference in the mechanisms? I know the materials are different. Ultegra uses plastic, which I have always looked down upon.
I hate these debates but......A question for Campy peopleterry b
Jun 18, 2003 7:46 AM
I ride all three and frankly (given my limited perceptual skills) I cannot detect any significant performance differences between them.

Between Chorus and Record - work the same, more carbon on Record. I actually like the feel of the Chorus levers better. If I was trying to build the world's lightest bike, I'd use a mix.

Between Chorus (or Record) and DA - work the same, but I greatly prefer the cable routing on Campy (hate that DA shifting cable out in front,) I like the thumb shifter better and 10 speeds. Also, even though it's tapered, I prefer the Campy BB design with no flange on the non-drive side. Saved a lot of grinding on the BB shell of a frame I have.

I don't think anyone is saying that DA is second tier - rather I think they're saying that Campy has two top tier offerings. And that Record (technologically speaking) is a step above the other two. I do think Chorus and DA compare quite directly, and when I build bikes those are the two I use.
I agree that Record is technology wise superior to DADave Hickey
Jun 18, 2003 8:06 AM
The use of Carbon, 10 speed, cable routing, etc... but I still say there isn't a performance advantage. I'm not saying DA is best either. I hate the BB. I've gone back to using my old 7410 cranks/spindle BB. My only point is, when it comes right down to it, there is no performance advantage to either group.
I would debate that...TJeanloz
Jun 18, 2003 8:14 AM
I would agree that any performance difference is minimal, even indiscernable, but not non-existant. Any time in cycling that you have two parts that achieve a job equally well with the same durability, the lighter one will offer higher performance - even if it's only a gram lighter.
If that were true...Dave Hickey
Jun 18, 2003 8:25 AM
Lance would be insisting on Record. He's as anal as they come regarding components and weight. If he could gain 1 second on a TT with Record, Postal would be using Campy. All things being equal, I'd go for a few grams less too but that's more mental than an actual physical advantage.
He's anal about something else...TJeanloz
Jun 18, 2003 9:00 AM
Lance is not a weight weenie. Look at the pedals he rode to 4 tour wins - probably the heaviest in the peleton. Look at the saddle he rides - again, one of the heaviest in the peleton.

He is anal about loyalty, however, and Shimano has been a sponsor of his since day 1.
Lance might have been on Campagnolo at one time.EagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 9:05 AM
Wasn't US Postal a Shimano team before they signed Lance? Would he have had a choice to ride Shimano had they been a Campy team? My guess is not, not at first, although he probably would have pulled some weight in getting it switched eventually? Isn't his old team Cofidis a Campy team? Had he not gotten cancer, would we have seen Lance on a Campy equipped bike?
Jun 18, 2003 9:13 AM
Had Lance gone to Cofidis, he would have been on Campy in 1997. Of course, the issue of loyalty really stems from his cancer experience and its aftermath.
Jun 18, 2003 9:18 AM
This is true, and he points that out in his book. I am not sure that Campagnolo would have been as loyal. I think Nike is the company that really stepped up for him though.
Oakley, really,TJeanloz
Jun 18, 2003 9:20 AM
Oakley committed insurance fraud for him. I'd say that's stepping up. Nike was pretty behind him too.
Don't forget Giro!russw19
Jun 18, 2003 7:38 PM
And they are making up for it right now in the increased profits from the Limited Lance Helmets and the USPS helmets.

But they stepped up for him too.

true, butterry b
Jun 18, 2003 8:26 AM
for hacks like me it would never be noticeable without lots of sensors and recording devices. you're right, 1 gram will make you one gram faster (a universal truth, proveable by physics I'm sure) but nanoseconds aren't going to make you get off the bike and say, "wow!"
I know very few people have ridden it...EagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 8:45 AM
But I was curious as to what people are thinking about the new designed Dura Ace group. Are there any advantages to it?
Not sure about that . . .djg
Jun 18, 2003 9:22 AM
a performance advantage is a performance advantage, not merely a measureable advance in some factor that, at some level of grain, could contribute to improved performance. If taking a gram off your bike (or trimming those toenails JUST a little more closely) doesn't increase the number of races you win, or improve your placings generally, or systematically take time off your TT results (or, even more unlikely, decrease your recovery time) then it's hard for me to see how it's a performance advantage.

Nothing against campy here, which I've got on both my road bikes. I just don't see the point of arguing over minutae.
yep - you and I agreeterry b
Jun 18, 2003 8:24 AM
When choosing betweent the three, performance doesn't even factor into my decision matrix. I don't think there is a performance advantage (once you get beyond Ultegra/Centaur.)

-I always put Campy on European frames. No rational reason, just "because." Seems like an aesthetic imperative to me.

-I generally don't use Record because I don't like the levers. I also think Chorus is just as good so why take something I don't like. As far as the FD, RD and BB go - the weight differences are peanuts so - no le hace nada.

-For American frames, last one I did was a mix of DA and some other stuff (Cane Creek brakes, Ritchey crank) and now that I'm riding it I hate that damn shifter cable. Future American frames - who knows, maybe 2004 DA "just because."
I agree that Record is technology wise superior to DAmackgoo
Jun 18, 2003 12:56 PM
BUt Lance has won 4 TDF's!!!!!
I agree that Record is technology wise superior to DArussw19
Jun 18, 2003 7:44 PM
And Campy bikes won the previous 25 Tours... what's your point? Prior to Lance, Shimano never won a tour. (actually I think Mavic could be credited with a win with LeMond in 1990, but I would have to check on that one...)

Shimano's first big win was the 88 Giro with Andy Hampsten.

LeMond and Campagnolo and MavicSmeagol
Jun 19, 2003 4:48 AM
I beleive Mavic was on LeMonds 1989 bicycles that won the tour, and the next year he was on Campagnolo. 1989 goes down as my favorite tour. We need to remember LeMond came back from a near death experience too. That says a lot about the heart of the American rider.
Dirty secretkokaku
Jun 18, 2003 9:18 AM
for the record, the only difference between Chorus and Record ergolevers is the levers themselves (metal v. carbon) - you can see this youself in the Campy parts diagrams on their site
I don't think that's a secret (nm)TJeanloz
Jun 18, 2003 9:21 AM
A question for Campy people: answeredbrian n
Jun 18, 2003 8:03 AM
I don't think one group is necessarily better than the other, there are just design philosphy differences. Both a functionally excellent, but these are the differences in why i chose campagnolo:

1) hood ergonomics: the shimano brake hoods hurt my hands on my 105 bike which i rode for 4 years.

2) 10 speed: i upgraded when 10 speed just came out. I thought that while i was putting the $$$ out i should get the best, figuring that at the time shimano would make the 10 speed jump within a year or two and i'd be stuck with an outdated drivetrain.

3) hubs: the axle and bearing system of the campagnolo hubs is way easier to adjust and service. all you need is an allen key and a screw driver. they also have grease injection ports (though i never use them). i have spent hours trying to get my cup and cone hubs adjusted, running out of hands to prevent the axle from shifting while tightening the locknuts.

4) aesthetics: the exposed cables on the shimano shifters look like they were designed as an afterthought. sure this is a small thing, but when you're paying the big $$$ everything matters.

5) materials: i am a metallurgist/materials scientist, so materials and their applications facinate me. I like the carbon/titanium/aluminum mix of record.

Here's a good one for ya'El Guapo
Jun 18, 2003 8:19 AM
How come some Campy supplied teams (Navigators, Prime Alliance, Telekom, etc.) have chosen to use Chorus on occasion? I wonder if this justifies the oft heard, "chorus is functionally identical to record" statement. For me, Campy ergonomics work better than Shimano. I don't like the feel of "lever slop" that I get (brake lever has a slight lateral movement when pulled back). The hoods on Shimano have never felt comfortable for me. Other than those two reasons, I see no difference between Campy and Shimano as far as quality. I'm gonna get "flamed" for that one!
I hate these debates but......A question for Campy peopleMXL02
Jun 18, 2003 8:25 AM
Dave- you know as well as I do, no matter what all the pundits on this board say, that it is only a matter of style. I ride Campy because of its history and Italian heritage...I ride record so I can't use "Poor equipment" as an excuse for poor performance, and because I can afford it. I ride with guys who use ultegra and they smoke me on a regular basis. Incidently, I have Ultegra on my Tandem, because that is what it came with...and I think it works nicely. The bottom line...ride the best you can afford and what makes your soul sing...and remember the motor is a lot more important than the drive train in determining outcome.

Style and tradition...Dave Hickey
Jun 18, 2003 8:30 AM
I couldn't agree more. Hey, 95% of my riding is single speed so cable routing and hood shape mean nothing to me:-)
A story about a rusted out Bridgestone RB1 and the podiumEagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 8:56 AM
That says it all, the motor that rotates the pedals is more important than the components. About three years ago at the US Pro National Criterium Championship in Downers Grove, IL in the USCF Cat 1-2 race the rider that finshed second in that race road the worst looking bike in that race. It was an old Bridgestone RB1 with old Shimano 600 downtube shifters. The seat stays showed a lot of rust, yet he went out there and beat everyone but one and wound up on the podium with a nice payday. Hoorah to that rider I thought for showing all the other people on bikes that cost thousand more up! I don't know who that guy was, but I would like to ride with him.
Just look at what the young guys race...MXL02
Jun 18, 2003 9:14 AM
Many of the 18-25 yo college guys who race pay for their addiction by working at the LBS, ride Ultegra or 105 because, a) its all they can afford, and b)it is relatively easier and cheaper to maintain.

One of my best riding buddies working at my LBS, rides a Tsunami outfitted with Ultegra, a fairly inexpensive ride. He is a former team member of the Mexican Junior Natl team. There is a Wednesday PM ride from the shop where he works, and all the local hammerheads show up strutting around on their expensive rides. My friend warms up riding in the group for about 10 -15 miles, then just smokes everbody as he hits 30 mph in Memorial Park. I loaned him my Colnago/Record once, and sure, he loved it, but it didn't really make him that much faster. He just loved riding the Italian stuff for a change. "It's not about the bike."
Jun 18, 2003 9:38 AM
My buddy had the chainstay completely break and come apart in less than a year. Chuck replaced it with a titanium version of the Tsunami. Appently, they went through a design change for this year, and they are no longer smoothing out the welds.
I think you are talking about Todd MetzSmeagol
Jun 18, 2003 9:24 AM
Todd Metz rode that Bridgestone RB1 to two state Illinois road championships as well. He did finish on the podium a few years back after riding the Bridgestone. He is now riding a Morgul Bismark that the frame has been repaired on now a couple of times, and still making noise a most of the Chicago are races. He had a great showing at the Great Race Goshen to Elkhart race this year. I know he is building up a brand new bike to race on this year. His son Sean is racing in Europe right now. Talk about some awesome genetics!
replacement costsDougSloan
Jun 18, 2003 7:42 AM
One thing to consider is replacement cost of wear items, like cassettes and chains. Ultegra, or even Dura Ace, is cheaper in the long run.

Shifters and whether you like the cable coming out the side of them is the biggest difference, aside from 9 vs. 10 speeds.

the bottom linetarwheel
Jun 18, 2003 7:46 AM
I've got both groups and they both work fine. The bottom line is costs. If you've got a bottomless cycling budget, Chorus is probably worth it. If your cycling funds are somewhat limited, get Ultegra. You will spend a lot more money initially and on maintenance with Chorus. The big problem with Campy is the ridiculous costs of their chains and cassettes -- the two biggest wear items for most people. If you ride a lot of miles, you will get sick and tired of spending $80 on new cassettes and $35 on new chains every few months -- double the cost for Ultegra. For that reason alone, I end up riding my Ultegra bike most of the time. The extra gear with Campy 10-speed is nice, but comes at a cost -- namely poor durability for chains and cassettes.
Good pointsDropped
Jun 18, 2003 7:54 AM
I read so much "Chorus rules" stuff here that I have been tempted to switch to Campy from my old Shimano stuff. But I have enough problems shelling out for the Shimano cassettes and chains never mind Campy. I'd go broke keeping my Campy drive train alive.

FWIW, I rode 105 for 7 years without a single problem until the ol' right shift lever finally crapped out on me. I've now got Ultegra shifters and rear derailer (because Ultegra was just a couple bucks more than 105), but the 105 cranks, brakes, hubs (!!) and front derailer are heading into year 8 just fine.
Jun 18, 2003 8:03 AM
I was in need of a cassette a while back. I know I could have paid much less online, however, sometimes I like to give business, even at a steep cost, to my local LBS and pals. I popped for a Record cassette at approximately $200. :)
the bottom lineEagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 8:07 AM
I originally started out with nine speed Chrorus. When 10 speed came out, I had to have it. I upgraded to Record as well. I loved it at first, but then one day while riding up a hill in Grand Rapids the chain broke. No shop in Grand Rapids had a ten speed chain in stock, so my trip there was ruined by this. I travel on business frequently, and I bring my bike. That was problem number one. The second problem was how frequently the chain wore out. At $40 a pop for one, I wanted it to last longer. I wrecked in a race a couple of years ago, and I destroyed the right shift lever. I replaced it with a nine speed, and I went back to nine speed Record stuff. There wasn't that much difference in the spacing of the cassettes between Shimano 9 and Campy 9, so I used Shimano cassettes and chains with my Campy stuff with good success. I saved a lot of money as well doing so. At first, I didn't believe it would work, but Robin at Licktons insisted he could tune it in and make it work. He did.
Time to go shoppingLC
Jun 18, 2003 8:27 AM
Let's do a little mock shopping trip right now for a Chorus bike and for a Ultegra bike. Let's pretend you got a wore out cassette/chain and you jammed your worn chain which broke your rear der...a very likely scenario.

rear der..40.........110
Time to go shoppingEagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 8:58 AM
What is the difference in weight?
You can get record chains for 20 bucks!the bull
Jun 18, 2003 9:17 AM
The cassette is expensive but is well built and there is an extra gear there as well.

If your gonna ride like a sport pay like a sport.
That's one of the best arguments FOR Shimano that I've heardKristin
Jun 18, 2003 10:58 AM
Really, Ultegra costs about as much as my Veloce, but its better quality and lighter. And Chorus is lighter than Ultegra. I guess it comes down to how much the pounds will penalize you. I'm just bummed that Shimano doesn't have a decent group with a thumb shifter. I really appreciate that feature since I have small hands. Its what will keep my buying the heavier Veloce in years to come.
That's one of the best arguments FOR Shimano that I've heardSmeagol
Jun 18, 2003 11:58 AM
Shimano is making shifters for smaller hands now.
re: CHORUS V ULTEGRAaliensporebomb
Jun 18, 2003 8:11 AM
Re: 105:

About all I can really say about my 105 group is that now
that I have it dialed in it works great - I don't really
notice it which means it's doing its job.

My bike weighs 17 pounds. I suppose I could go for some
lighter stuff but the 105 stuff is bomb-proof (except the
decals are peeling off the crank). I'm currently at 1200
miles and coming up on 11 months of ownership so there you
fyi, a top of the line Record group is $2300 nowDougSloan
Jun 18, 2003 8:24 AM
And that's at Excel. Of course, that's a carbon crankset. At an LBS it likely would be several hundred more.

Thats not right!!the bull
Jun 18, 2003 8:33 AM
I got full Record with carbon cranks and ti casette.
Eurus wheelset Thats right a whole wheelset!
Even threw in Deda bar tape!
For $2150.00 No shipping!
that's what it saysDougSloan
Jun 18, 2003 8:45 AM
Go to Excel and add it up. That included seatpost, all Ti cassette, and headset, btw.

Wise Cycle does appear to have some better prices, though.

Don't forget $1400-2000 for Hyperon Wheels.Dave Hickey
Jun 18, 2003 8:43 AM
I love those wheels. I use DA on all my bikes but my dream bike is a LOOK KG486 with full Record and Hyperon wheels.
Jun 18, 2003 8:46 AM
I want a pair too, with a set of Reynolds Stratus for backup!
fyi, a top of the line Record group is $2300 nowEagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 9:02 AM
That depends on where you buy though as well. I know the guy at Gearlink will negotiate a much better deal on Record stuff. I also think Carbon cranksets are gimmicky, although they are beautiful in appearance.
Jun 18, 2003 8:38 AM
I have only had ultegra and 105. so I can't saty anything about campy but I can say I have put a lot of mile on ultegra and never had aproblem. My current bike (ulterga) has 4600 miles all put on in the last 13 months with on other problems then a few marks from two falls. That doesn't count the hours and hours of roller time this winter. My other two ultegra bikes were raced heavly with no problems just normal stuff and a new chain every 4000 miles.
Are they really the same?Alexx
Jun 18, 2003 8:39 AM
A LOT of people claim that Chorus is the equivalent of Dura-Ace, and that Record stands in a class of it's own. In that scenario, wouldn't Ultegra compare to umm.....what's it called this year? Athena? Whatever...

BTW, are ALL campy lines free of exterior cables? I'm one of those few roadies who like to have a handlebar bag instead of a seat wedge, so Campy is looking better all the time.
Handlebar Bag?EagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 9:10 AM
What's that???? I haven't seen one of those for sale in years! I always hated how once they started to wear out, that they usually rubbed the wheel.
Small bag. Big frame. Doesn't even come near the wheel.Alexx
Jun 18, 2003 3:34 PM
And, no, I'm not talking about one of those 'dangler' bags-my bag CLAMPS to the bars, and has a quick-release mount. Yeah, can't use any super-light bars with it, but, hey, it's a tradeoff.
Hey Fredstaple. Aren't ya glad we helped? LMAO nmDave Hickey
Jun 18, 2003 8:50 AM
Fred....Fred....are ya still there?the bull
Jun 18, 2003 8:55 AM
Guess he is out riding that steel campy bike huh?!
So what kind of frame did ya pick?
Indepent Fabrication?There good!
After all our "expert" advice, he's sticking with Suntour nmDave Hickey
Jun 18, 2003 9:00 AM
7 speed or 8 speed? ;-) nmDougSloan
Jun 18, 2003 9:13 AM
Hey Fred, You should include this discussion...EagleRider
Jun 18, 2003 9:15 AM
for people who have over a seasons worth of experience both on Campy and on Shimano. That is the only worthy people that you can listen to to help you make your decision. Best of luck to you in your search. I like Campy, and I was very proud of it when I owned it. However, it did suck my checkbook. My Shimano stuff isn't as pretty, but shifts better. I like the ergo levers better in that they fit my hands better.
He probably decided the eeny meeny miney mo method is best. nmNo_sprint
Jun 18, 2003 9:17 AM
Minor IssueMikeC
Jun 18, 2003 10:28 AM
If you're looking at discount wheels at some point (particularly mail order or internet), you'll find a much larger availability of Shimano-compatible rears.
That said, I still ride Campy.
Jun 18, 2003 12:32 PM
My name is Bruce and I'm a Campyholic. There's another component manufacturer other than Campy?
HI BRUCE.Smeagol
Jun 18, 2003 1:24 PM
Is this going to become like an AA meeting now?
NEITHER - MAVIC MEKTRONIC! (nm)Iwannapodiumgirl
Jun 18, 2003 3:18 PM
Jun 18, 2003 4:45 PM
Have ridden both many miles. The chorus has been more durable for me and my daytona ten seems to be just as good if not better than my ultegra. Just me, but i would buy chorus or daytona (newer name now) over ultegra. If i bought shimano it would have to be dura ace. The only thing i don't care for in dura ace is the silly cables in front, an unnecessary thing to me. My record 10 shifts smoother than my chorus, daytona, or ultegra.
Hey Fred! Ya still there?!KG 361
Jun 18, 2003 6:40 PM
My head hurts reading all of this, and I'm not even the one that asked the question! Here are things as I see them (I have a mixture of D/A and Ultegra, fwiw, and have never ridden Campy);
From all accounts, neither is junk-both work well
If initial cost and maintainance costs are important to you, go with Ultegra.
If you can afford to spend the extra $$ for chains and cassettes and want to have that special Italian feeling, go with the Chorus.
FWIW-if you do some smart shopping you can actually get a mix of D/A and Ultegra to come in for less $$ than the Chorus-that's what I did. (D/A shifters, chain, derailers, crank; Ultegra BB and brakes).Good luck!
Opinions are like arseholes.cyclequip
Jun 19, 2003 1:43 AM
Everyone has one - and once again, same arseholes, same opinions. Boring!
New arguments to comeSmeagol
Jun 19, 2003 5:01 AM
I remember when I started riding almost 20 years ago, I had Suntour. I dreamed of having Campy as a 12 year old rider. Three years later, I did. Back then you had a lot more choices. You could get Campy, Shimano, Mavic, Suntour (Superbe Pro stuff was sweet), and Simplex. Recently we have only had three choices, and only two of them seem legitimate. I know companies like FULL SPEED AHEAD (FSA) have plans on coming out with full lines of components. They think they can compete as well. I guess time will tell. It would be nice to see some more choices and more competition in hopes that it drives down some of the rediculous cost of some of this stuff.
SoraRadical Ron Pruitt
Jun 19, 2003 5:33 AM
The Sora components on my OCR3 ride just as good as DA. Get the Sora. Buy cheap so you have more money for beers for you and the wife.
re: CHORUS V ULTEGRAfredstaple
Jun 19, 2003 5:52 AM
Wow, it took me the last 24 hours to get through all the replys. Thanks for everyone's input. The choice is clear, I'm going with..................................