|I am now armed (long)||Lone Gunman|
May 11, 2003 6:07 PM
|We all have had on road confrontations. I have had 2 in the past 4 days that have gone way beyond your run of the mill hs kids in car yelling something at you or throwing something.
Incident 1: Out in little bucolic Enon Valley, PA. Ain't nothin' out there but Amish, cows and a turnpike overpass. An older SUV pulls up behind me and starts layin' on the horn, no traffic from the other direction. He then buzzes me, comes within 2 feet. Pulls into the only area store about 200 yds up the road and goes inside. As I ride by I yell out "HURRY HOME TO BEAT THE WIFE AND KIDS JACKASS!!" (footnote: phrase from an unknown poster of this board) I ride 1/2 mile up the road. Check my mirror and see the SUV coming fast behind me and then slowing. I check the mirror and see the wheels cut towards me and locked up with the vehicle doing a big power slide to cut me off. I turn left out around the SUV as the 280lb neanderthal primate hops out and says "C'MON MFER". Ride another 50yds up the road and said neaderthal is back behind the wheel after me again. As he gets closer, I bunny hop the berm, turn hard right into a driveway, pull out the cell and start to call for police help. Neanderthal gave up and left. State police patrol the area, first they said someone was coming out to talk....called me back and asked if they could talk tomorrow....that was 3 days ago, I'm not holding my breath.
Incident 2: I had a crash yesterday, front tire blowout and down I went on wet pavement. No major injuries, just shook up a little. Fortunately, my bud had a support vehicle along, his GF in a van on TOSRV 1/2 mile away. Again out in the middle of nowhere. She parked in a driveway while my bud helped me fix my tire, and clean up my wounds a bit. The squatter owner of the driveway arrives home as we are getting ready to leave. Lots of bike traffic. GF support vehicle is having trouble backing onto the road due to traffic. The squatter, goes nuts cause we parked in her driveway to attend to my medical condition. Mind you she is a 300lb white woman living alone in a rundown trailer with cats. She goes nuts with my buddy and ranting and raving about private property and trespassing etc. "I'll have you arrested!!!" Wrong thing to say, my bud is a Deputy Sheriff. Squatter is out of the car yelling at us, my buddy trying to explain that he has an obligation to treat victims of accidents....Then she called him FAT!!!
That tears it, I have finally had enough of this road rage nonsense. I have bought myself a 4oz can of streaming pepper spray, has a range of 6 to 12 feet and is supposedly devastatingly effective. You want a piece of me, I am gonna hose you down like that game at the carnival where you try and shoot the clown in the mouth with the water pistol. I then will take the car keys, call the cops and let them finish the job. Those who physically confront (and I know the difference) get hosed. The last resort is to go renew my carry permit, get a stainless handgun I can sweat upon and carry it. I am no match for a vehicle and this road rage mess is gonna get cleaned up 1 jackass at a time.
|I get frustrated too||carpe_podium|
May 11, 2003 7:30 PM
|And I also carry pepper spray - the anti-bear stuff. Hey, you just never know when some bear is gonna come charging at you, especially here in Texas;-) I honestly don't get hassled that much. It seems to be drunken punks in pickups that have nothing better to do than to screw with someone on a Sunday afternoon. Cyclists are easy targets. Most guys don't want to tangle with someone my size (I'm 6' and weigh 175# - the Tanita says I have approx. 6%BF). I sometimes get the "f@gg0t" shouts, and people slowing and "gassing" their cars to try and choke me with exhaust fumes as they pass, crap that generally aggravates me but doesn't put me at risk.
Seriously, be careful using the pepper spray. It can make the situation worse, the guy is gonna be seriously pissed and you don't know if he's armed with something more "potent". And the cop responding to your call is going to see things from a different perspective, could go badly for you. I think you handled yourself well in both situations. Blow off some steam, do a few LT intervals and some hill sprints and remember that most people suck - don't let them get to you.
|Way to go. Here's another option.||DERICK|
May 11, 2003 7:48 PM
|Pepper spray is great but realize that about 10% of the population won't be seriously affected by it.
I carry this every clipped in my wasteband every time I ride. The pocket clip is on the other side. It's super easy to open and close with one hand and is razor sharp. It can be hidden in a reverse grip so no one knows you have an open knife in your hand until they cross the line and force it to be used. I've never had to use it and hope I never do but it's nice to know it's there just in case.
Some states don't allow one hand opening lock blade knives to be carried even by honest law abiding citizens so check first. Of course if you renew your carry permit the knife will be covered by that.
|Ahhh, Spyderco...makes me feel warm all over!(nm)||merckx56|
May 12, 2003 6:02 AM
|re: I am now armed (long)||Akirasho|
May 11, 2003 7:57 PM
|... unfortunately, I've been put in the situation of worrying about the legalities later...
In those cases where confrontation is unavoidable, and you feel threatened, you must use self determination to assess the situation and take appropriate actions.
Be careful out there...
Be the bike.
|Scary situations within your control||pitt83|
May 12, 2003 5:05 AM
|I know you're pissed and for good reason. Though, we've got to "kick it down a notch".
You're pissed and your adrenalin and HR are up when the SUV buzzes you. But you didn't need to respond. Put it into perspective and let it go. He's driving a 6000lb car and you (hopefully) a sub-16lb bike. You will lose every time. I bite my tongue all the time. Once I got tailgated in a breakdown lane by someone laying on the horn. When they did get past me, they had a "Mean People Suck" bumper sticker. You should need to qualify for those.
As for the resident Jerry Springer guest, that's ridiculous. No reason there. I would argue with her too. Tell her to call 911; you could use an ambulance now and she may need one shortly. Let cooler heads de-fuse it. You say you were backing out and, I assume, leaving? Put up with her crap for 30 more seconds and it's over.
Retribution is a bad idea. Don't think that you'll be OK if you shoot someone just because he buzzed you. Even though I'm a cyclist, you wouldn't want me on your jury. I don't see that as justified. Too much TV makes us think that's OK.
Remember, karma is a fixed quantity for all to share. By giving out bad, you won't get good. Keep it cool.
|re: stick to group rides and early hours||cyclopathic|
May 12, 2003 5:54 AM
|yahoos do not get up that early and if they do they don't get cranky early on. And noone messes with 20-40 people in lycra riding 2 abrest ;)|
|re: stick to group rides and early hours||byker|
May 12, 2003 12:31 PM
|They do get up early in the morning. I'v had a 1/4 filled beer bottle thrown at me at 8:30 in the morning.|
|I understand the tempation to ...||Live Steam|
May 12, 2003 7:21 AM
|respond to idiocy, but your response to the jerk in the SUV was unwise. I have certainly responded in similar fashion, but in hindsight, I am sure I would have been better off keeping my mouth shut and my feet spinning happily away. From an other perspective, we are out there having a good time and getting great exercise, and the idiots that make stupid gestures, try to intimidate and even attempt to injure have a real problem. Why give them satisfaction by reacting to their stupidity and why ruin a good day? They also could be very dangerous. Pride and ego have nothing to do with it.|
May 12, 2003 8:14 AM
|I find cycling gets my adrenaline going and I find it harder to ignore idiots than when I am driving my car.
I know I need to work on it but it can be difficult in the heat of the moment.
|adrenaline - I understand but .....||Live Steam|
May 12, 2003 9:10 AM
|we are for some strange reason targets for this type of idiocy. Enflaming the situation is not wise, and as I stated I also sometimes get caught up in the heat of the moment and wish I had just kept my mouth shut. The idea that some idiot in a vehicle can easily mow me down should his common sense fail him is usually enough to get me to catch myself before I let go. Sometimes I forget that however :O( Road rage is a strange and awful emotion. Now get out of my way I have to get to the bike shop! ;o)|
May 12, 2003 7:40 AM
|lessee, you call someone a jackass, allege spousal and child abuse, and you're suprised when he confronts you?
I'll admit, he's a loser who should have been reported (and cited) for the first incident; but I think you asked for the second confrontation. Certainly, I dont condone chasing people down and forcing them off the road, but his actions were a direct result of YOUR actions; If you don't wanna fight, don't go around asking for one.
As far as your trailer friend, you might very well be angry if you were in her shoes, too. Spread a little joy, appologize for her inconvience, and show appreciation for the use of her property (since you were, in fact, trespassing).
|Just callin' a spade a spade....nm||Lone Gunman|
May 12, 2003 5:04 PM
|i've said it before, and i'll say it again.......||stik__boy|
May 12, 2003 9:13 AM
|an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. why does everybody here think that cyclist need to fit into this "be nice or else" stereo-type??? wanna wheel suck? fine... slam the brakes on in front of me cuz i am, and you're trying to hurt me???? fine. but you better hope if i crash that i cant catch you. (this is a semi-frequent subject here...) cuz if i do you WILL get jacked. now i agree that not every action requires a reaction...... but come on. if you want to act like an ass, expect to get treated like one. and as for our "f@gg@t" in spandex stereotyping..... do you think that if Lone_Gunman had gotten pummeled that the people in the emergency room wouldnt have been snikkering about the "queer got beat up"???? i've had it happen. broken collar bone and shoulder chipped in 3 places from a crash, and they snikkered about what i was wearing. by the way... spyderco ready to go. cut me off. please. and i'll show you how the "queer in spandex" can make you fear. sorry. just agravating. i dont think theres any reason to intentionally hurt someone. but protection is another issue.|
|So how is the Spyderco protecting you from a 6000# SUV?||Mel Erickson|
May 12, 2003 9:51 AM
|"if you want to act like an ass, expect to get treated like one" Well, that goes for both parties doesn't it? The SUV driver may have irritated him but what about his comment while passing the gas station? Shouldn't both expect the same a$$hole treatment? Also, looks like the cell phone was mightier than the knife. It caused the guy to put his tail between his SUV and hightail it oughta there. Would wielding a knife have scared him off or caused him to jump back in his SUV and use IT as a weapon? This has nothing to do with being macho or having a "be nice or else" complex. It's self preservation. Unless you're prepared to carry a gun and use it (and suffer the consequences of it's use) don't think you're going to win a battle with a car toting idiot with just a knife or pepper spray.|
|I never said I would do that||DERICK|
May 12, 2003 10:56 AM
|You are putting words in my mouth. Yes, the origional poster acted like an a$$ and and probobly caused the conflict to continue. He was in the wrong. Only an idiot would think that a knife or any weapon offers total protection. It simply gives an advantage in certain situations. Sort of like a helmet. It doesn't guarantee you wont't be killed but (hopefully) you still wear one. The fact is that even if you keep your head down some crazy may still try to hurt you. If he does use his vehicle you will loose no matter what. If he gets out of his vehicle to hurt you then you have a chance, if you are prepared.|
|Amen, like you say, preparedness. nm||Lone Gunman|
May 12, 2003 5:13 PM
|No, I'm just having a hard time contemplating||Mel Erickson|
May 12, 2003 6:33 PM
|when carrying a knife would be advantageous. Like SteveO said, you could only use it to your advantage if the other person came at you with a knife. How often is that going to happen? If they start to beat on you with their fists and you use the knife you'll be in deep doo doo with the law. Distinct possibility for some jail time and, depending on the condition of your assailant it could be lengthy. Not to mention the inevitable lawsuit. I just don't see the sense in carrying it.|
May 12, 2003 7:48 PM
|You have a right to defend yourself with reasonable force. That includes using a weapon if your life is in danger. Just because the other person is unarmed doesn't mean they can't cause you great harm or even death. You have no way of knowing what they plan on doing either. There are also lots of other things people can use as weapons. clubs, bats, broken bottles, tire irons, rebar they picked up at a construction site, etc... Just becaust they might not have a knife doesn't meat they can't hurt you.
The key is "Reasonable" force. Obviously if the police pull up and you are stabbing their motionless body while their lying on the ground you will be in trouble. Or if the attacker is a 90 pound woman and you are a 200 pound guy than using a knife would not be reasonable. A 145 pound male like myself would be justified in using a knife to in defence against a larger person. Assuming my use of force stops as soon as he is no longer a threat.
Usually if someone is looking for a victim for a random attack they pick someone who is smaller and appears weaker. You probobly won't be attacked by someone who wouldn't justify the use of a weapon if it is a random attack. If you go around flipping people off and trying to "teach people a lesson" then you increase your chances of being attacked by someone who would normally just drive on by.
Also there is no rule that says you have to use your weapon. If you think your attacker is not a serious threat, or you can handle the situation without it, leave the knife in your pocket. I've only been in one real fight since leaving highschool years ago (not cycling). I had a knife but didn't use it. I was able to control my attacker and did not have to hurt them. We were both very lucky that night.
It's true that the situations where a knife is useful for defence are rare. If you don't act agressively they can be even more rare. But there will always be a small chance that some crazy will pick you as his daily therapy. Whether you walk away from it or are carried away could come down to whether or not you are prepared.
|wow, you sound very angry. You should learn to be nice.||Steve_0|
May 12, 2003 10:37 AM
|Seriously, I'm all for self-defense, but you're being illogical.
If some jerk raises fists towards you and you pull your delica on him, YOU'RE the one going to jail for man-slaughter. Self defense limits to EQUAL force. Just learn to fight.
On the other hand, If he raises a gun on you, your little delica wount do much.
Last scenario: he pulls a knife on you. AHHH!, equal force! Just what you and your spydy have been waiting for!. Ug, ever been in a knife fight? Even if you WIN, you'd have been better off running. Just pedal away. He'll look pretty silly standing there with his knife while you ride away.
This coming from a card-carrying (and Sebenza carrying) NRA member.
|wow, you sound very angry. You should learn to be nice.||DERICK|
May 12, 2003 11:26 AM
|You are ass-uming I would flash my knife at someone and am "waiting" for a situation. I take every step I can to avoid a situation. If I could "just pedal away" there would be no situation. That's like someone saying that because you own a gun (as do I) that you are waiting to shoot someone. I'm sure that couldn't be further from the truth. Yes, I do know how to use a knife and am well aware of its limitations. You never let an attacker know you have a knife until all options are exercised and he is actually attacking you.
ANYONE who escalates a conflict because they think they have an advantage is an idiot.
I am not the origional poster nor would I act like he did.
|derick. TOTALLY agree.||stik__boy|
May 12, 2003 11:35 AM
|you would NEVER let your tactical "advantage" escalate a scenario. you would merely use it as needed. or hopefully not. but none-the-less, you would use it, because it would hopefully be your advantage. if you could ride a tt bike and no one else could, you would, right????? i would!!!!!! my original point was why do we, or anybody for that matter, have to accept someone elses actions against us for what we want to do. or what they think we shouldnt be doing..... etc.... etc.... kick me, i kick you.|
|Thanks, I should have been more clear...||DERICK|
May 12, 2003 11:53 AM
|in my origional reply. I think the origional poster acted like an ass and I don't support his actions on that day. That's a good way to get yourself killed even if you carry a bazooka and body armor.
I was simply offering another option for people who are looking for some extra protection. NOT a way to get back at people or teach them something. If anyone thinks that carrying a knife, spray, gun etc. will alter the way they react to situations they shouldn't do it.
|you are ass-uming I was responding to you.||Steve_0|
May 13, 2003 3:49 AM
|So please dont draw inferences on my assumptions of your intentions. I know you were not the original poster; I was repsonding to stik-boy.
Having said that, we're talking road rage here. The attacker has two options 1) run you down, or 2) get out of his car.
If he doesnt run you down, you CAN always ride away.
Drawing analogies on gun ownership is wasted on me; as I'm an avid hunter.
|you are ass-uming I was responding to you.||DERICK|
May 13, 2003 6:34 AM
|I'm the only one who mentioned a knife so it made sense.
I don't think riding away is always an option. If someone cuts you off, forces you to stop and gets out there won't be time. You would either have to ride past them in which case they would be able to push you down. Remember we are talking about accelerating from a stop here. Or you could turn your bike around and start pedaling away. If you do that you have just turned your back and are straddling your bike. Two things that make defending yourself very difficult. If you think you can turn your bike around and get up to speed before someone 10 or 15 feet away reaches you than you are faster than me. If you think you can outrun their car when they come after you again than you are way faster than me. I'd much rather deal with them while they are out of the car. You also have a better chance of reasoning with them once they are out of their car and it's just 2 regular people. To say that you "CAN always" ride away is silly.
If there is a safe escape route than of course I would take it. The fact is, running away is NOT always the safest option.
May 12, 2003 10:37 AM
|Violence is the ABSOLUTE last resort. ESPECIALLY if you have a weapon or posess special skills(Martial arts,Military training etc.).It should never be used to save face or "teach someone a lesson". The best thing to do is ignore the insults and make it less fun for them.
If someone does cross the line and become a threat you should have a plan to defend yourself. It should be effective and efficient with the main focus being that you are the one who walks away. You owe it to yourself and your family to make it home in one piece at the end of the day.
I guess it comes down to this. It's NOT our job to punish people. It absolutely is our job and duty to defend ourselves when put in danger.
May 12, 2003 10:42 AM
|Agreed, I vowed long ago to defend myself in every knife-fight encountered on my training-rides.|
|Agreed. but i also dont want to be caught||stik__boy|
May 12, 2003 11:13 AM
|standing there with my hands empty as some 6'4" - 250lbs guy comes rushing towards me to decapitate me while im breathing hard on asphalt in carbon soled shoes, breakdancing all over the place. i agree that Lone_Gunmans comments probably escalated the scenario. that why i say an eye for an eye. im not the type to make comments like he did.... but IF you do decide to not run me over with your 6000 lbs suv.... AND you think you're just going to pull over a kick my scrawny ass..... if YOU escalate it to that... you might get a suprise. say what you want about "self-defense".... i'd rather defend myself and take that risk than possibly, and seriously, get killed. how do i know what someones intentions are??? what he's willing to do??? how far he wants to take it??/ trust me. if you dont feel VERY seriously threatened in a situation like this, your life may be at risk. as for just fighting.... 7-1/2 years of martial arts. am i an imposing figure at almost 6' and 160lbs. no. i would ride on. unless it came to something else.|
May 12, 2003 11:37 AM
|I've studied martial arts for almost 10 years and am constantly reminded that there are people out there who look small and weak but can kick my ass.
Always avoid a fight if you can, even if you think you can win. Never underestimate the danger an attacker may pose.
|Don't be part of it. Adults should not think like that!! Or...||tempeteOntheRoad|
May 12, 2003 3:10 PM
|Move to Canada... And live with us peaceful cowards!
What's the difference between your point of view and the other upset person?
Same reaction to conflicts, only different time and situation.
Sorry to say, but you make a greater difference in this world if you don't participate in violence.
|Actually it's entirely different.||DERICK|
May 12, 2003 4:43 PM
|There is a big difference between fighting for your life against an unwarranted attack and fighting someone because they call you a name. I'm talking about defending yourself from violence that will involve you whether you participate or not.
"Sorry to say, but you make a greater difference in this world if you don't participate in violence."
Mostly true, but if a violent person is determined to do you harm and you refuse to defend yourself, the only difference you are making in this world is that you are no longer in it. That may be fine by you, but I'll bet your family and loved ones feel differently.
By the way, if someone breaks into your home with the intent of hurting your family would you still choose "not to participate" in defending them? If so you may really be a coward as you stated and that's your choice. I just feel sorry for them.
|one way to never lose a fight is...||moschika|
May 12, 2003 3:58 PM
|to never get in one.
fortunately i haven't run into too many 'bad' folks out on the road. some have gotten too close for comfort but nothing ever thrown. a few yells but nothing i couldn't ignore.
the way i see it, they must be suffering(knowingly or not) in order to lash-out at strangers. why should i get pulled into their pain and anger. i'm just going for a ride.
if they stop and get out, i can usually turn around.
if it becomes physical, then i can hope my MA training will come in handy or i can try and beat them with the cleat side of my shoes. - hopefully never comes to that
if they hit me with their vehicle, hopefully all my crashing experience will save me. - hopefully never comes to this either, even tho it has happened accidentally.
i'm not really into carrying a weapon thing. they might know how to use it better then me.