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Moots Vamoots or Litespeed Classic?(36 posts)

Moots Vamoots or Litespeed Classic?humbert
Apr 21, 2003 7:00 AM
After many months of looking, I have narrowed my dream bike choices down to these two and would appreciate any comments or thoughts from those with experience with either of these bikes.
Both have very similar geometries, both got great reviews/comments on this site and both are around the same cost. The plan is full Chorus ( 13-29 ) with Record shifters, Easton bar and seat tube and Kysrium Elites.
huge price discrepancy in the real world?Fez
Apr 21, 2003 7:30 AM
Retail prices don't tell the real story.

I'm guessing most buy Moots at close to retail. Most usually get Litespeed at steep discounts. If they were the same price, I would get the Moots. Where I am, they are relatively rare. Litespeeds, although fine rides, are dime a dozen. But, kind of hard to compare when the real world prices aren't close.

BTW, lots rave about how clean the welds look on the Moots.
Been there, done thatMootsie
Apr 21, 2003 7:50 AM
I know I will get hammered on by the "looks aren't everything crowd" for my comment, but I went through this exact situation 2 years ago. If you have the chance to view the two frames side by side the Vamoots really stands out. The Litespeed looks "industrial", almost unfinished in its apprearance, rough, not worthy of the expense. The Moots on the other hand looks (even 2 years later) like a jewel. Its finish is unique, smooth, the welds looks look precise, and you feel like you are getting something hand made and select. The ride quality is the best I have ever ridden. Buy the Moots and you won't ever regret it.
Second that...LactateIntolerant
Apr 21, 2003 8:05 AM
These pics were previously posted here (sorry, don't know who to credit)...Moots on left, Litespeed on right.
Third!russw19
Apr 21, 2003 8:18 AM
Get the Moots. It's better compared to the old Merlins before Litespeed bought them out. They are both Ti frames with similar geometry, but the finish quality is far better on the Moots. That generally (NOT ALWAYS) means they spend more time on your frame making sure it's perfect. I had a Moots MTB and it was the best bike I ever owned. For some dumb reason I sold it, but when I did, I got more than I paid for it.

I do however have one comment... regarding your shifters, why the Record? I ride Record, and I know why I bought it, but the Record Shifter is only 20 grams lighter than the Chorus, and the alloy shift lever (behind the brake lever) feels a little better. The Carbon looks amazing, but the shift lever feels kinda flimsy and I suspect long term durability to be a problem. I think if mine ever wears out or gets really soft and flimsy feeling I will see if it can be replaced with the Chorus alloy shifter. Just a heads up... nothing more. But the Chorus shifter should be like $50 cheaper too.

I bought Record becuase I always wanted a top of the line Campy bike. I had riden Dura-Ace for the past 12 or so years, and I decided that I was just gonna get Record this year, but I work in a shop so I am lucky enough to not have to pay retail. Without that luxury, I would be riding Chorus right now, as the difference between the two groups is not that much and I question if it's worth the extra money. Sure it's super sweet and elite and all that, but the Chorus is so nice that it's a tight race when you factor in the savings.

Russ
Third!russw19
Apr 21, 2003 8:25 AM
The above came across sloppy and I hit the OK button instead of the edit button when I tried to fix it....

I meant that the Chorus' alloy shift lever that is behind the brake lever feels stiffer and more exact than the carbon shift lever in the Record shifters (my opinion!) and I would try to replace my carbon lever with the Chorus alloy one if mine ever fails.

Other than that simple statement, I am not trying to say Chorus is any better than Record! So don't try to jump on me for something I didn't say. I ride Record cuz I wanted the best... but I think the more postive feel of the alloy lever would make my Record shifter that much nicer. Maybe if I could replace it with a Ti shifter... then my stuff would be unique too.

Russ
parts is partsgtx
Apr 21, 2003 8:55 AM
I still think the most important things after choosing the frame/fork (assuming the frame fits with the proper stem length) is the proper selection of shoes/pedals, tires, seat and bars (shape and width). Everything else works so well these days it's more of a question of style than anything else. Oh, and bar tape (Cinelli cork, of course). ;)
welds, welds, weldsyeah right
Apr 21, 2003 9:40 AM
After learning to tig weld recently, I have a lot better appriciation in what goes into those welds, and from what I can see the litespeed welds are extrememly high quality and would be considered very uniform. The moots of course are gorgeous, and bead is perfect, to the point that you wonder if a human laid that down. still, looking at those litespeed welds, they're not a reason to avoid the bike. to see nice welds in aluminum look at a ventana mountain bike, they build all "specialized" bikes for cipo and co.
welds, welds, weldsgtx
Apr 21, 2003 10:05 AM
Where'd you hear that about Ventana building Cipo's bike? Ventanas are the nicest AL frames out there IMO.
welds, welds, weldsyeah right
Apr 21, 2003 12:48 PM
a friend of mine, who builds frames on the side, used to work for specialized and said that specialized got rid of their american production facilities and instead farm out the team bikes to ventana. i have no way of confirming this, but i trust the guy and morgan hill where specialized hq is isn't far from ventana in rancho cordova outside of sacramento. i guess not even the s works are made in america anymore (not that it's a cardinal sin or anything)
thanks for the info! nmgtx
Apr 21, 2003 1:10 PM
Specialized BikesSharkman
Apr 21, 2003 9:57 PM
Dont know about the racing bikes for Cipo, et. al, but most of Specialized's aluminum frame are made in a bike factory in Portland, OR called SAPA Anodizing Inc. A client of mine (I'm a CPA) used to own that company, and before he sold it to SAPA (a big Swedish Industrial company), he gave me a tour of the bike factory.

While on the tour, he asked what size I rode. I said 56. He went back to a back room and came back with a Specialized S Works M-4 road frame. The same frame that Festina had a year or two back. I built the bike up with Record 10, and then wound up selling it to finance a horse for my 13 year old.

But I did find out that Specialized bikes are made at that factory. In fact, my client has come up with most of their better designs. Specialized is mainly a marketing company.

FWIW

Bob
re: Moots Vamoots or Litespeed Classic?gtx
Apr 21, 2003 8:14 AM
Agree with what was said above. I'd also check the geometry again. Don't know what sizes you're comparing, but while the fit may be similar, the handing should be pretty different. I think the Moots will have shorter c-stays, a steeper head tube angle and probably a shorter wheelbase--should translate to a quicker handling bike.
re: Moots Vamoots or Litespeed Classic?humbert
Apr 21, 2003 8:18 AM
Thanks for the comments. A little more info-- my LBS quoted the Litespeed at about $4,500 for the 2003 Classic.This price has no discounting and he won't go down. Wrenchscience has the Moots for almost exatly the same price. I have not yet seen a Moots since they are rare here in New Jersey. If anyone has bought through Wrenchscience, I would like to hear their thoughts.
WAY too much for a Classic nmgtx
Apr 21, 2003 8:20 AM
also...gtx
Apr 21, 2003 8:23 AM
try these shops for Moots--both are great

hammerheadbikes.com

speedgoat.com (I think they also do LS)
$4500?!Fez
Apr 21, 2003 8:23 AM
I guess in years past the huge inventory that was built up needed to be cleared out and thus the yearend blowouts that Litespeeds were famous for.

I think Moots is not as mass marketed and hence no huge inventory to clear. I'd go Moots for that price.
I'd pass onFez
Apr 21, 2003 8:27 AM
the Easton bits for something less exotic and functional. Ditto the Record shifters for Chorus ones and use any spare change to upgrade those Ksyrium Elites to Ksyrium SLs. Or some other wheelset worthy of the rest of the bike.
Retail prices...FTMD
Apr 21, 2003 8:32 AM
Moots 2003 catalog:

VaMoots: $2245
Compact: $2245
SL & SL Compact: $3150
YBB: $2599

I don't think you'll see a discount on these prices. I believe Moots has a stong policy with its retailers not to offer discounts.
Buy the frame from wherever and get componets from...the bull
Apr 21, 2003 9:01 AM
www.wisecyclebuys.com william will price macth anything and pay shipping I think Total Cycling has chorus group for $650.
Also the Moots is a beautiful bike.
I think Litespeeds are more bang for buck.Personally I ride my bike and dont sit there looking at the welds!If you like art take the money you save and go to florence!
Even better....LOL!fracisco
Apr 21, 2003 9:03 AM
Buy a bike case, go to Florence, check out the art, and ride around the countryside!
Riding from firenze to roma would be the bomb!the bull
Apr 21, 2003 3:01 PM
Bouncing all around Tuscany eating steak and drinking wine.
Dont forget the wild boar!yum yum yum!
Buy the frame from wherever and get componets from...zippi
Apr 21, 2003 12:25 PM
i agree, get your components from wise and call "la bicicletta" for your frame, they're in toronto. i just ordered a vortex frame from my lbs for $2,400 and record kit from wise. thats the way to go. but your lbs should price match. if not find another.
most Lbs will only match US prices !the bull
Apr 21, 2003 2:49 PM
Wisecyclebuys will work with you even better! Call William
and talk to him before you buy anywhere!
re: Moots Vamoots or Litespeed Classic?Nessism
Apr 21, 2003 9:45 AM
If you do your homework and search the web, you should be able to save $1k by going with the Classic over the Moots. From a functional standpoint, both are nice frames. I like the Classic's tube shaping but the from a finish standpoint, I think the Moots will be better.

If value is important to you, the best deal going is a TST frame in my opinion. The weld quality is similar to Litespeed and I think the frame prep is better. Check out the Colorado Cyclist Douglas Ti frames or some of the Sampson frames. TST makes these frames on a contract basis. Excellent price on a quality frame.

Good luck.

Ed
re: Moots Vamoots or Litespeed Classic?humbert
Apr 21, 2003 10:09 AM
Ok, I'm really thinking Moots. If I could ride both before the choice I would feel more confident but these comments have helped. The components were picked for a number of reasons, not all rational, and are under constant reconsideration. I ride Kysrium SSCs now, love them, and... what was I thinking about with the Elites? When you dwell on something too long the mind does strange things. Feedback from this board is exactly what I needed.
re: Moots Vamoots or Litespeed Classic?russw19
Apr 21, 2003 12:47 PM
If you get the Moots, get their seat post and stem too. They are some of the nicest on the market and they almost give them to you if you get them with the frame. I have a Moots seatpost that has now been thru 3 other frames... it's just so darn nice I keep transferring it to the new bikes. I actually went out and bought a new post to stick on my old bike when I sold it, just to keep the Moots. Their stuff is perfect.

Russ
Try Thismerckxman
Apr 21, 2003 11:25 AM
Call High Gear in Stirling, NJ and ask for Peter Schmidt. He has sold and built up some Moots.
Listen up, Moots is a fine bike, butLazywriter
Apr 21, 2003 2:20 PM
the Classic is a great bike for the $$$. I agree that $4500 for a new Classic is too high, but you can find Litespeeds at deep discount. Look for a 2002 model like this one. I think this was their best version since I bougth mine in 1997. Best bike I ever bought and I ride a 2002 Vortex as well. Trust me, the Moots is not magical like all puport it to be, it is another ti bike that is well made.
The bike below is a 57cm and is only $1695 with the fork. If it is your size I would snatch it up. I am tempted myself because it is my size and my Classic is the rare high polished, but I love this paint scheme (it is paint with decals on top btw). The Moots is very dull IMO. Welds are nice on the Moots, but my Vortex welds are so close. The Moots are rare and that creates an aura of higher quality, but this is just a feeling and not reality. My Classic has held up great for the past 6 years.
This is more like my Classic and it is nicer looking than anyLazywriter
Apr 21, 2003 2:26 PM
Moots I ever seen. Just my opinion, but you can be riding this bike and bank the extra $1300. No loss in performance at all compared to the Moots and it will last you a lifetime. You just have to accept the fact that there are more LS on the road.
This is more like my Classic and it is nicer looking than anyhumbert
Apr 21, 2003 5:13 PM
This is getting more interesting. My size is 57cm and despite months of rationlization, I could use the extra mony saved on the Litespeed for a lot of things. The rarity of Moots is not a big factor in my decision, nor is the color or look of the bike - if color and rarity were the big factors I would buy the Orbea team. Thanks for your note - where is the 2002 for that price? If the frames are close in price I think the Moots is the choice, if not then Litespeed it is.
here is my classic without stickers!the bull
Apr 21, 2003 5:28 PM
This is more like my Classic and it is nicer looking than anyLazywriter
Apr 21, 2003 5:29 PM
www.gvhbikes.com

This guy has an awesome reputation and this frame comes with a $300+ Reynolds all carbon fork. He can probably build the bike up for you for $1300+ less than the Moots.
Don't get me wrong, the Moots is a fine bike, but you can have a lot of extra cash if you buy this frame with no penalty in performance and still have one of the most stable titanium rides ever made.
Litespeed Classic has been unchanged and I defy you to find many actual owners that give anything but praise for this bike. Look back through the years on this site at the reviews. The Classic has remained unchanged for the most part. You will not get on the Moots and then on the Classic and "feel" a $1500 price difference. Hell, I own a new Vortex and still say my Classic rides nicer. I am not kidding. I test rode the Seven, Serotta and bought the Vortex and I love my Classic more than any of them.
It is nice to hear you say you don't care about the exclusivity factor. I argue all the time about how people perceive these other smaller bike companies as "better". My Classic and Vortex are no less handmade than a Seven or a Moots. Welds on a Moots are cleaner, but that has nothing to do with the integrity of the weld and the LS welds are great to boot. I love the paint scheme on the 2002 Classic I posted and I swear that if I didn't buy my Vortex last year, I would pick this one up for the price.
This is more like my Classic and it is nicer looking than anyhumbert
Apr 21, 2003 5:41 PM
Dont' buy it! I have called and e-mailed GVH. Your strong feelings about this bike say alot. I looked at wisecycling buys.com and saw the 10sp Chorus for $719, excluding seatpost, headset and hubs. I'm thinking, if GVH still has thr frame, buying all online and having my LBS build it ( after giving them the chance to meet or come near the price). Thanks to all for your advice.
This is more like my Classic and it is nicer looking than anyLazywriter
Apr 21, 2003 5:50 PM
I hope the frame is still there for you. You will not be disappointed and with the price differential, you are getting an even better deal than most people get. You can conceivably build this bike with what you want for $2900 while banking the other $1600. Use the rest to get a moutain bike, new roof rack etc etc and still walk away with a dream ride. The new paint/decal scheme isn't nearly as nice as this one. I would pull the trigger on it if he still has it. If it is still lying around in 6 months I will buy it. LOL
built this for $3800 all new !the bull
Apr 21, 2003 5:32 PM
For my friend mike!He loves it.Titanium with carbon rear
All Record and Force(all carbon)fork with deda newton stem and bars !!!!