|I have a dream. Campy questions inside...||Kristin|
Apr 14, 2003 10:30 AM
|Most people here know that I need another bike. However, I consulted my checkbook and I really can't blow another $2 G's right now. Its not so bad. The changes that I made to the DB are really great--the 60mm stem and longer seat rails get me back and I can actually deliver some power to the pedals without killing myself. (And that's not a typo--I did say 60mm.) I'm sitting a lot better on the bike now. So I have a dream to purchase a custom build in 2.5 years. To finance my dream I will be selling my soul to the devil...well, the big 4, during the 2003/2004 tax seasons. I should probably begin watching for Campy component sales, since my Veloce won't be worth transfering to the new bike.
1. Do both Chorus and Record have thumb shifters? (This is a must)
2. Can Chorus and Record peices be mixed-and-matched?
3. What peices of the group are one-size-fits-all? (i.e. what do I need to wait to buy until the frame is designed?)
4. I thought Chorus was better than Record...no?
5. What are the benefits of Chorus and Record over Veloce?
|re: I have a dream. Campy questions inside...||No_sprint|
Apr 14, 2003 10:36 AM
|Yep, they have thumb shifters, yes, they can be thoroughly mixed and matched. Almost everything is one size fits all. Wait on the BB, Italian or English. Record is superior to Chorus. As you go up in price you move down in weight. Good luck and welcome to the light. There is no better way to get this stuff than to buy the groupset together. You will be hard pressed to find stuff on Ebay. Campy is for life. Shimmy is all over Ebay. Best place I can think of is Texas Cyclesport.|
|Since I have 2 years to buy this stuff,||Kristin|
Apr 14, 2003 10:45 AM
|Would it be cheaper in the long run, do you think, to buy the the whole group as a kit, or to buy bits and peices where I can find them orphaned and on sale? Or is it just better to let the shop who designs my frame sell me the group and do the whole build for me?|
|Since I have 2 years to buy this stuff,||No_sprint|
Apr 14, 2003 10:54 AM
|If it's a good shop, let them do the whole shebang for you, provided they won't gouge you. It will be cheaper to buy the whole package rather than find pieces. For Campy, you might not even be able to find someone willing to sell their stuff. Next, if you let the shop do the whole enchilada, they'll likely be very kind to you for any warranty work. For example, my shop warranties things I haven't even bought from them because I do so much with them. They also charge me little to nothing for repairs.|
|re: I have a dream. Campy questions inside...||MR_GRUMPY|
Apr 14, 2003 10:41 AM
|1. No, only Record, kinda' like what Shimano does.
3. The headset is the only thing that you should wait to see what kind you need on the new frame. (Threaded, threadless, or integrated)
4. No, Record is the top of the top
5. None, Record is for people who have large amounts of disposable cash, or for people who like to show off.
|re: I have a dream. Campy questions inside...||TJeanloz|
Apr 14, 2003 10:44 AM
|1. Yes. Both have thumb shifters.
2. Yes. All pieces of Record and Chorus are interchangable.
3. Everything is one-size-fits all except the BB, which is 90% likely to be English, and 100% if you're buying an American custom bike. The front derrailluer, if you buy braze-on, is also universal.
4. Record is more expensive than Chorus. You decide which is better.
5. Benefits: (a) Weight (b) Use of bearings instead of bushings at key pivots (c) Higher quality bearings in all races
|Wait. Save. Invest. Buy the whole deal together...||Spunout|
Apr 14, 2003 10:49 AM
|and save alot more.
Custom? Are you sure? POst your fitting issues here, maybe C-40 can find you a stock builder that will work better. Sounds like you'd prefer slack angles and short TT, but I know nothing of this.
|Hmmm. What a good idea.||Kristin|
Apr 14, 2003 10:59 AM
|Internet forum bike fitting. What a good idea! NOT!! So you thought I would fall for the old "post your bike fit issues" again did you? Well, not this time bucko! :-P
Seriously, though. I'm spending 2K+ and I'm not going to let a bunch of unknown hacks online make the selection for me. You are correct, I would like very much a shorter TT, longer wheelbase and slacker angles. The number of mass produced frames that fit me well is zero. I could make something work, but I'd end up doing the same kinda stuff I've done to the DB. I simply have extreme proportions and an unflexible frame (me, not the bike). I'm excited about having a frame designed for meself.
|Oh. Uhh, okay. Humm. ;-) nm||Spunout|
Apr 14, 2003 11:02 AM
|Oh. Uhh, okay. Humm. ;-) nm||No_sprint|
Apr 14, 2003 11:11 AM
|I have a feeling half of us would commit suicide if she decided to fit herself again. LOL|
|Oops. That was before my time. Glad I wasn't here! ;-) nm||Spunout|
Apr 14, 2003 11:28 AM
|Please, don't stop on my account. ;-) nm||Kristin|
Apr 14, 2003 11:39 AM
Apr 14, 2003 12:39 PM
|if you don't go full custom||kenyee|
Apr 14, 2003 1:27 PM
|Be sure to try out rentals if you can. E.g., in the Boston area, there's a store that will let you rent a bike for 3 days for around $35 and then you can apply it towards a purchase from them.
If not, be sure to check around for a good fitter in your area and it probably wouldn't hurt to get fit by two different ones to confirm.
|But you are asking for advice?????||russw19|
Apr 14, 2003 8:19 PM
|"Seriously, though. I'm spending 2K+ and I'm not going to let a bunch of unknown hacks online make the selection for me."
But this thread is exactly that. Irony?
Kristin, you have been here long enough to know who to listen to and who to ignore. Where else do you know of where you can find such a large collection of cycling fanatics? Sure, there are people here who give either just plain bad advice or silly and irrelevant advice, but I bet even your local shop doesn't have this many people who know their stuff. Mine doesn't. And the people you are having build your bike, how far removed from being strangers are they? How much do you know of them and their opinions? I am sure you can see where this is going... but think about what you are saying. You are asking for advice on a board full of qualified and non-qualified people but when they tell you stuff you don't want to hear you discredit it....not this thread per se, but I read the bike fit thread too. It seems that you ask for advice and then don't want to hear it. You are asking a public forum a question.. you will get both good and bad answers, but instead of asking advice in a thread and then later in the thread telling people you don't want to hear their opinions, just weed through it all and decide what's best to listen to. (this post inclusive)
Don't get me wrong, I know this post of mine comes across like I am holier than thou, but that's not my intent, just how it comes across as a text post. My point is you asked for help... you got it.. good and bad... now it's up to you to decide who you are going to listen to, but to ask this forum for help and then later in the same day to call those who are trying to help you (right or wrong) unknown hacks is kinda silly. I know that wasn't what you meant, but that's how it comes off.
Sorry this sounds harsh, that's honestly not my intent, but this is the only way I can figure out how to say what I am trying to say.
|I'm sorry. When did I...||Kristin|
Apr 15, 2003 6:55 AM
|When did I ask for fit advice yesterday? I asked for help 2 years ago...and continued to ask for help for a year after that. The whole process was nothing but confusing and frustrating. People who have enough knowledge to weed through good and bad advice are not the ones needing the advice, they are the experts on the subject. The person asking will likely not be able to discern the wheat from the chaff. And so it goes. I learned my lesson last year and have not asked for any fit advice since then. So I am sincerely confused as to how you got the impression I was seeking fit assistance. I absolutely am not. My post is yet another attempt to curtail all the unsolicited advice that this board is so famous for.|
|Oh, and BTW||Kristin|
Apr 15, 2003 7:05 AM
|I do not pick and choose what advice to listen to based on what I want to hear. Nor could you possibly know whether or not that's what I do. You've never met me, yet you think you know me well enough to determine the motives behind my posts? It is offensive to be judged and labeled by strangers--especially when they're wrong.|
|In my opinion, you need a new LBS to work on your bike. nm||OldEdScott|
Apr 15, 2003 9:59 AM
|Hahaha. You're funny! ;-) nm||Kristin|
Apr 15, 2003 10:42 AM
|Oh, and BTW||russw19|
Apr 15, 2003 4:53 PM
|Ok, first off, I do see where you are coming from. And I will point out that I tried very hard to not be offensive in my post to you and even went so far as to tell you not to read into it for any hidden intent, but it seems you may have anyways. I had a rough weekend. Family health problems that I won't go into here.... but that's not the point. The point was that I knew I was in a stressed and grumpy mood and my post seemed to reflect that. I wasn't taking any issues with you asking or not asking for fit advice... I was simply pointing out that you were asking for advice about parts in this thread and later in the thread you were calling those of us who choose to take time out of our days to try to help you as hacks. Then in the above post you even say..."It is offensive to be judged and labeled by strangers--especially when they're wrong." That's my whole point summed up right there. Maybe I was horrible in making it the first time, but what I was trying to tell you is that there are people here who are going out of their way to try to help you. Don't repay the favor by judging them and making assumptions that they are all hacks. Use your own words above as your guidlines.
I think some of your posts get extra attention. Maybe from you being a female, maybe because you ask good questions... regardless, you get a lot of response to your questions. You need to be able to go thru it and judge who to listen to and who to ignore. No matter what you are asking. You are in a public internet forum to get advice.... some of it is bound to be poor advice, and you need to recognize that.
Maybe I should have held my own opinions back, but you are bound to get that in an open forum as well, and what I said to you was by no means an attack.. just a head's up. I was trying to tell you that if you are going to ask questions on the net, you are going to get the full spectrum of answers. If you can't weed thru them, you should be asking your LBS and not here. And if you were offended that I said so, put the shoe on the other foot and see how it felt when you asked for advice in a thread then tried to make it out like everyone who tried to help you were simply unknown hacks.
|All right. This will be my last post on this subject.||Kristin|
Apr 16, 2003 6:21 AM
|I will not under any circumstances discuss fit on this board after this post. Period. And I know this thread has droned on long enough, but I want to make one last reply. Then I'm going to shut up for a good long time.
I completely agree with you Russ. And I apologize if my comment about "unknown hacks" came accross as an insult to every poster. It was a bit of sarcastic hyperbole. Here are my sincere thoughts on the issue.
Trying to get personal bike fit assistance from perfect strangers online is stupid. Darwin award stupid. And I admit freely that I tried it, but I've learned my lesson. Unfortunately, I can't post a topic about the weather without someone trying to tell me how to fit my damn bike. Also unfortunately, my greatest pet peeve is people who give unsolicited advice. So I tend to rebut these folks when the come along with thier opinions--I know, I know--but I am really sick and tired of all the peanut gallery comments. When I ask about Campy, then give me input if you have an opinion about Campy. Don't tell me not to consider a custom frame. I didn't ask about that. (See, there I go again.)
There are a few great people on this board whose advice I would trust unquestioned. And this thread was very helpful. I had thought it would be cheaper to buy a group peice meal, and instead learned that it is cheaper to buy it as a whole. I also learned that there may be some real merit to buying Chorus (bearings) and that I should consider it. My comments were in response to Spunouts little fit tangent alone. It was not meant as an insult to the entire board. I'm sorry it came accross that way.
|'Unknown hacks.' LOL!! nm||OldEdScott|
Apr 15, 2003 4:57 AM
|six answers to five questions||JS Haiku Shop|
Apr 14, 2003 10:54 AM
|1. yes--both have "mouse ears", as far as i can tell
2. yes, within "speed" groups: 9 with 9 speed, 10 with 10, etc.
3. questions about the frame that will affect the kit: will the front derailleur be mounted on the seat tube or on a der tab? is the bb threaded english or italian? do you want the rear derailleur that works with the 13-29? threaded or threadless fork steerer? seat tube diameter? i'm guessing these are all applicable--wait 'til you have the frame.
4. chorus is supposed to be equivalent to record, aside from a few parts that are made with lighter material (CF and Ti instead of Ti and aluminum)...I think. also, aside from weight, *supposedly*, veloce=105, centaur=ultegra, chorus=dura-ace, and record=no equal. i will probably never spend a dime on record.
5. chorus is supposed to have noticeably better brakes (the calipers), hubs, and bb than centaur, and the shifter/levers are made with ball bearings instead of bushings. the latter supposedly wears faster and requires "break-in". i know the question was chorus vs. veloce, but you'd be better off comparing centaur and veloce, and i've never ridden either. IMHO chorus and ultegra (though they're supposed to be viewed like d/a vs ultegra) are both far superior to 105. i think as it stands today, i prefer the ultegra.
6. the "big 4" are tantamount to the satan and his minions. this coming from one who spent two years working for the fifth, before they were the big 4. if you haven't worked there before, prepare youself to be "not worthy" all the time, no matter what. it's a cutthroat world, and everybody's better than everybody else.
|No, I did a tour of duty in the Big 6||Kristin|
Apr 14, 2003 11:07 AM
|I was a Fast Tax admin for one of the original 6 that is now #2. (Got that?) I know what long hours are during 1040 season. I left in good standing with the company which gives me a shoe in for a seasonal tax job that would pay about $13/hour. Not bad. But, yes, my soul will be required of me. Its okay. I'll put aside $400 for spa time after its over and my life force will be restored.|
|i'm pretty sure||JS Haiku Shop|
Apr 14, 2003 11:25 AM
|partying during "recruiting" season took several years off the end of my life. coupled with 65+ hour weeks in the first calendar quarter, i'm lucky to have made it past 30.
my "big 5" career finished as a regional notes developer, btw. time served before that was as a network admin & tech staff senior for 4 offices, which will make one prematurely dead.
sure did pay well, though.
|What horror! I went straight to the government (CMA). :-P||Spunout|
Apr 14, 2003 11:31 AM
|We are talking accounting firms?
'scuze me if I'm misdir/f&ckedup.
|yep nm||JS Haiku Shop|
Apr 14, 2003 11:35 AM
|I would never have survived...||Spunout|
Apr 14, 2003 11:38 AM
|As my third career, I just wanted to finish and get treated well. I've done an apprenticeship as a Chef de Cuisine, so I've sold my soul to the Devil for three years before and will never do it again.
The money is okay, pace is slower, education/professional costs are paid, and I can go home at 3:30 and RIDE.
|Yep. I miss my cube view of Navy Peir and that $75/day per diem||Kristin|
Apr 14, 2003 11:33 AM
|Recruiting, business dinners, best hotels, nicest offices, benefits and perks... But I don't miss the hours or the commute. Plus, you have to tip absolutely EVERYONE in the big cities. After tips, travel extras, non-business lunches and one bar tab/month I had about $100 left for rent.|
|re: I have a dream. Campy questions inside...||purplepaul|
Apr 14, 2003 1:01 PM
|I have just gone through the whole enchilada of being fitted for a custom frame and then researching to see how much I would save if I provided the components myself.
I looked at online places in the US, Canada and the UK and here is what I found: at most, a savings of $300 over what the frame maker would charge (out of, let's say, over $5k). That includes Campy tubulars, full Record except for a few things as recommended by the builder.
1)He believes that Record BB's are really not that great, don't last long. So it's a Phil Wood Ti BB for me. Should last long enough to give to my grandkids, and I don't plan on having any children.
2)Headset. Nothing wrong with the Record, but he feels that nobody makes better ones than Chris King.
3)Seatpost. Again, nothing wrong with the carbon Record, but I opted for a Bold Ti just because.
4)Pedals. Was all set to get the Records then learned about the 100 gram/set M2racers, so I had to have them.
I was quite surprised that the monetary difference was so comparatively small, so I just let the builder do everything. Saved me a lot of hassle and worry about buying the wrong size and stuff.
I also learned that some of the cheaper prices on the internet are actually old components. Excel was just about the cheapest with current year stock. If the exchange rate with Britain plummets some time in the next 2 years, you might try that. Otherwise, I suspect you may end up doing a whole lot of work for very little savings.
|Great response. Thanks!! nm||Kristin|
Apr 14, 2003 1:09 PM
|don't buy until you know what frame you are putting it on||DougSloan|
Apr 14, 2003 1:28 PM
|Too many parts of a whole group are frame specific, like headset, bottom bracket, seatpost, front derailleur, and rear derailleur, depending upon cassette size and/or whether you get a triple.
I think most of your questions were already answered. I'm just chiming in on my recommendation.
|re: I have a dream. Campy questions inside...||djg|
Apr 14, 2003 1:29 PM
3. Almost all of it. Parts that are variable include the bottom bracket, headset, and front derailler. Also, you might want a long or short cage rear derailler, depending on what you want in the back for cogs. But I'd recommend that you not buy anything until you are ready to buy the bike. For one thing, you might well get a better package price buying everything--or at least the entire group--as a whole. At the very least, you will avoid multiple shipping charges. For another, there's no particular savings in warehousing the stuff on your own. In fact, there's a possible detriment: as new and "improved" gear surfaces, older gear may see reduced pricing; but nobody is going to deliver such price reductions retroactively. Just put the money someplace safe and gain some interest on it (even 2% is better than sticking it in the closet).
4) No, Record is better than Chorus. Or at least it's more expensive. Almost all--not all, but almost all--the differences between Chorus and Record have to do with the substitution of a few Ti and Carbon bits here and there in the Record kit that save a little weight. They cost more, and they don't save all that much weight. Now, it is true that there are a few folks out there who prefer Chorus, not just because of price but because they prefer the feel of the metal Chorus shift levers to the feel of the carbon Record ones or because they like the looks better or because they think the CF is prone to break. But Record is the flagship group and most would prefer it, cost being equal.
5. Well, 10 speeds versus 9, for one thing. Better mfg. tolerances, bearings, etc. It's definitely a bit lighter and it's likely to last longer as well. Look, there's nothing wrong with Veloce. The gears shift when they're supposed to, the cranks turn, etc. It's a perfectly functional group. If you are strapped for cash, I don't see anything wrong with transferring the Veloce to a new frame and simply deferring the component upgrade until later (when the Veloce starts to show real, functional wear; or when you feel richer; or when you feel you need it). Getting a frame that fits your body and your riding style will represent a huge improvement over a frame that fits neither. Getting nicer parts? It's not that you won't notice; it's just much, much less of a big deal.
As for component sales: www.sdeals.com tends to have very good Campagnolo prices.
|I've had a fantastic experience with a Custom frame||Ambishawn|
Apr 15, 2003 12:06 PM
|Before I get into it let me give you my opinions on your five questions.
1. Yes Chorus and record have thumb shifters.
2.Yes I have Record cranks on a Chorus groupo and it works flawlessly.
3. Wait until you get the frame made or bought before buying any parts for your bike. B/Bs seat posts, front der clamps, headsets are in different sizes. Also when you get fitted you will have a recommended crank arm length and handle bar width so wait until you have been fit properly.
4. Record is Campy's top of the line group and you certainly can't go wrong full record although I prefer Chourus because it's more durable in spots like the rear cassettes and BBs.
5. Chorus and Record have ball bearings in place of bushings in all the lower lines of campy. They are also lighter in weight and offer a noticable improvement in braking and shifting perfomance. You would not be able to tell the difference between Chourus and Record providing they were properly tuned. The Record would offer only a further weight savings of about 1/3 of a pound and a stiffer crank.
I took about a year to get My custom Independent Fabrication Crown Jewel together. I started this process with a extensive fitting proceedure. We did all the measurements as per the IF body measurement chart. After all the Measurements were made the selling dealer and I also used the Serrotta size cycle to Create a baseline for an ideal road frame. After that the dealer, IF and I discussed cycling goals and objectives the I was building this frame for. The fitting process will have a sheet listing all your body measurments, recommended frame demensions, proper stem length, crank arm length and handle bar width, and rate of flexablity.
At this point I approved the building of the frame and put down a 25% deposit and had My frame about 2 months latter. Like you I debated between going with full Record, Chorus of a mixture of the two. My closest riding buddy has a Colnago C40 with full record and it's flawless. I was certain that I was gonna go with it until doing a little research and found that the Record Ti cogs on the rear cassette wear much faster than the steel Chorus cogs. Also the Record BB with the carbon center piece tended to creak more under stress. I planned on putting a lot of miles on it so those factors concerned me. In the process of looking for some good deals on Campy parts, I came across Wise Cycle buys and found the Record group for $999 shipped and the Chorus group for $699 shipped. I talked with the owner of wise cycle buys about mixing up some stuff like doing a record group with a Chorus BB and Cassette. This was no problem for him. I wouldent have the money for another 6 months for I just dumped a boat load on my frame and fork with custom paint.
In this time I realized I also prefered the feel of the alloy Chorus Ergo Levers over the all Carbon ones on My buddys C40. The only thing that I really liked about the Record Group was the Crankset. When I was ready to buy I went with a Chorus 10 group with a Record crank set 53/39. William (the owner of wise cyclebuys)and I made sure that all the parts were correct before shipment, stuff like BB, Crank length, Cassette gearing I chose 13-29 rear der cage length, front der clamp size.
The end result was beyond my wildest expectations. My bike rides better than I thought I could get a bike to ride. The comfort on long rides and handling are unbelivible. It climbs well, desends well and dosen't vibrate or beat me up on rough roads. It was well worth all the trouble and every penney I put in to it. I can't stay off this bike, It makes me want to ride all the time. The bike handles so well I feel as if I were a much better rider than I realy am. I've ridden everything, Colnagos, Litespeeds, Moots, Merlins,Pinerellos, Looks, Serottas you name it but nothing compairs to a custom frame with Chorus or Record. Your frame should fit right with a 110 to 120mm stem and your seat i