|Question for Americans going to the Tour de France||WCC|
Mar 27, 2003 3:59 PM
|My wife and I have a trip planned that we have been working on for a long time. We have been very excited about it.
Now I am having serious, serious 2nd thoughts. I have paid the tour group and would lose my deposit if i cancelled now. I havent booked air yet, but am close to doing so.
The thought of spending a single dime in France right now sickens me. I love cycling, and seeing the Tour is a dream, but right now I'm not very excited or happy about this trip. Even after the UN stunt they pulled I was still ok with going, but damn if they dont add insult to injury every day.
Anyone else having 2nd thoughts?
Mar 27, 2003 4:15 PM
|If you feel so strongly, stay home. But I don't think the French care.
I'll be there and I can't wait to go. I'm based just north of Grenoble for two weeks. I'm bringing my bike and riding everywhere I can.
I lived in France. I know French people. I am able to separate government policy from people. Try it some time.
Mar 27, 2003 6:08 PM
|Hey dude, dont be condecending towards me.
btw..its obvious you've lived in france.
Mar 28, 2003 7:20 AM
|The word is condescending, not condecending. Is that condescending enough for you?
I hope it's obvious I've lived in France because I'm not narrow minded like you. It's amazing what you encounter when you step outside the USA.
As for your trip, you'll be kicking yourself for not going when you are at home watching it on TV.
Mar 28, 2003 2:37 PM
|Dude, come on now.... They actually let me on a TransAtlantic flight. Can you believe it?? No, I havent been to France, but Ive been to Germany, Italy, Austria. The language was a bit of a problem, but i found that if you TALK LOUD enough, they understand just fine...Canada is another story..eh
And I didnt say for sure if i was cancelling.
Thanks for the "spelling lesson". You really got me with that one.
|Just got back from France..........||Tower|
Mar 27, 2003 4:15 PM
|On a two week vacation. We got back just in time (3-13-03) before the war started.
I can't help you with your inner struggle, but I can tell you we had no trouble from the people. I think they live their lives daily just like we do, somewhat removed from everything.
As for spending the money there, yeah I had some misgivings, but I got over it. If you've had this planned for a while, then do it. No sense in kicking yourself over it. Sounds like a fun trip, and one you might not be able to make again.
Take the trip.
|Being harrassed isnt my fear....||WCC|
Mar 27, 2003 6:14 PM
|..that doesnt bother me. Nor does thoughts of terrorism. Putting money in the pockets of France does.|
|Look, you're going there to watch an American....||Stinky Hippie|
Mar 27, 2003 4:45 PM
|...make the the Alps look like ant-hills. What could be more humiliating to the French than to watch Lance yet again demonstrate that the Tour is just another really long bike ride?
I had my concerns at first. Not wanting anything to do with France in any way , I figured I was even going to have to boycott OLN coverage of the Tour. Then I realized just how much it pains the French to watch an American win their race, and I smiled.
Feel the gin
|Look, you're going there to watch an American....||russw19|
Mar 27, 2003 4:50 PM
|Hey Hippie, was that meant to be "Feel the grin" or are you smiling for another reason? ;-)|
|Not a typo...||Stinky Hippie|
Mar 27, 2003 4:57 PM
|...tis my tagline of many years, spawned during a late night at the MTBR "braketime" forum.
Feel the gin.....*hiccup*.....really...
|Look, you're going there to watch an American....||WCC|
Mar 27, 2003 6:17 PM
|i have to admit this is the main logic i am using to motivate myslef to go.|
|The only reason not to go||Mel Erickson|
Mar 27, 2003 5:17 PM
|is because you feel it's not safe. Go, enjoy, root for Lance and represent your views. The best way to counter what you believe is wrong is to face it head on and express your convictions. Interaction often produces suprising results.|
|Get over yourself already!||filtersweep|
Mar 27, 2003 5:46 PM
|"The thought of spending a single dime in France right now sickens me. "
Do you think that matters one bit? You act like you are supporting terrorism by going. Could you be any more histrionic?
"UN stunt" ? A country just doesn't happen to agree with a so-called "pre-emptive strike" and you call it a stunt? Do you know anything about international politics? George Bush has squandered more international good will than you can imagine, and walked all over and broken all sorts of international laws. The question is simply this: do the ends justify the means? George W. apparently answers to a higher power than the UN ;) I'm reserving judgment, but all my in-laws just happen to live in Europe, and I just might not be as red-neck as some... (pardon the perjoratives and assumtions ;)
If you are an "ugly American" I recommend you stay out of France no matter what is going on with US foreign policy.
For the record, I find no shame in riding my Look with Michelins and Mavics...
Seriously, it sounds like you are grandstanding on the fact that you already had a trip planned... like it is your ONE connection to the fact that we are at war and you want to milk it for all it is worth. Might as well stay at home and waste your deposit, sleep well knowing you are righteous in your endeavors. Might as well, as no one in France will notice your absence.
Mar 27, 2003 6:30 PM
|"Do you think that matters one bit? You act like you are supporting terrorism by going. Could you be any more histrionic?"
I never said anything about terror. Yes, morally I think it matters. You might not care, but it bothers me that up unitl a few weeks ago, the French, along with the Russians were selling military equipment to Iraq. Do you really think the French were against this thing for Peace reasons?? LOL, get your head out the sand. And tell your Euro relatives to dig theirs out while your out of it. It's all about the Franc/Euro to the French. (see Ivory Coast) Hell, now they are trying to dictate what is going to happen in POSTWAR Iraq...there are no words for this, its so unbelievable.
I'm not an "ugly" American, for your info.
I ride Time pedals, and Time Shoes, MAVIC Wheels, etc....
I'm not grandstanding, I'm dead serious. There are Americans dying right now, its not a game.
I bet you were one of the losers at the "DieIn" in NYC today weren't you? If not, too bad, because you are obviously just another America Hater, I know your kind. I disagree with about 90% of the crap our Government does, but right now Im an American.
|More civilians dying that Americans.......nm||african|
Mar 27, 2003 6:32 PM
|I'm not even going to bother...nm||WCC|
Mar 27, 2003 6:36 PM
Mar 28, 2003 4:49 AM
|let's see... the US armed Iraq to the teeth to fight Iran, if you may recall... "busines is business."
"America hater" ? You can disagree with 90% of what the government does and I'm the American hater? Or is Bush "too liberal" for you?
Ah, YES, there are American's dying right now- and it has nothing to do with the French and it is no game. It rather has to do with the "Bush Doctrine," a relatively new style of foreign policy that disregards all sorts of historical conventions.
Funny thing is, to most of Europe (and especially the French) they regard the US death penalty as a serious and legitimate human rights issue. There are two sides to the Atlantic.
One might even regard France's desire to assist in reconstruction as a positive thing. I won't be so optimistic, however they arguable will not be instrumental in forcing the issue of rebuilding the country since they are not in the process of destroying it. I really believe France was against war out of principle- not because of peace or business reasons. It would be like me alleging that Bush pushed for war solely to line the pockets of his oil buddies- there are much EASIER ways for Bush to funnel money in their direction (with even a sweeping tax cut).
Hey, you are pro-war (liberation of Iraq, whatever)... I get it- the whole issue boils down to some rather simple beliefs that will place you (or me) on one side of the fence or the other- and I can respect that.
France, especially Paris, has long had to contend with terrorism- maybe not on the scale of Sept. 11th, but I've been there when synagogues were bombed in Paris, and their airport security has always more closely resembled that of Tel Aviv than of Omaha, Nebraska....
...I guess I'm naive... I forget that we STILL have trade issues with Cuba after all these years... ;)
Mar 27, 2003 6:31 PM
Mar 27, 2003 6:08 PM
|I'll be there... and the last thing I want to come across is some whiner worried that any gratitude he might display to his hosts will comprimise his moral integrity. |
France's government has voiced a good portion of the views OF THE MAJORITY OF THE WORLD... If these aren't your views and your worried you won't be able to bite your tongue then sit at home and watch baseball while I'm enjoying the greatest sporting event in the world and a beautiful country and culture at the same time.
Mar 27, 2003 6:26 PM
|Since you haven't booked airfare yet, fly into Switzerland, rent a camper there, buy all your food there, then DRIVE to France and don't spend anything if you don't have to...
OK, that's not practical. In spite of my dislike for most things French, I think you'll find that most people there are not all that involved in politics. That's why their politics are so messed up, the fruits make a lot of noise while the level-headed people just go about their lives. (Kind of like those of us who try to ignore Jesse Jackson here). Enjoy your trip!
Mar 27, 2003 6:34 PM
Im not really worried about the people, Im sure that will be great. Hey I've got Muslim friends, even though the majority of the worlds muslims want to kill me....and you too filtersweep.
Mar 28, 2003 12:40 AM
|Man you really do have some ignorant ethnocentric views. Please, stay home. I hate the thought that someone like you may actually be an ambassador of the American People when you go to a foreign country with your stupid comments like "the majority of the worlds muslims want to kill me" Don't you realize that more Americans have been killed by Christians than ANY other religion? Yep, the Civil War took more American lives than any other war. More American lives were lost to stop the spread of Capitalism than Communism, and more Iraqi children are dying right now than Americans.
Don't try to put words in my mouth either, I am hoping that every single American that is in Iraq right now is safe from danger, but I am not going to act like an idiot and say I am not supporting anything French because they wouldn't help us overthrow a country's political regieme.
Look, I really don't care if you do or don't go to France, but keep your stupid stereotypes of the Muslim Religion off this board. If you don't have a clue as to what they believe in, then how about not making asinine speculations about them.
Mar 28, 2003 2:28 PM
|"More Americans have been killed by Christians.." sure, but Christian leaders weren't calling for the death of Americans...
Look doofus, I've been out of this country many times, I get along wonderfully with everyone I meet. I even chatted it up with a German man in Munich, who was a POW in WW2(shot down over Britain).
And my original post wasnt to start a flame war or a troll, its legit, not my problem if people have a problem with my patriotism.
Mar 28, 2003 7:01 PM
|Hey doofus, instead of spending money in France, spend it here buying a freaking clue!
Hitler was a Christian, Mussolini was a Christian, the Russians during the Cold War, albiet Orthodox, are Christians. Damn you are slow. And my referrence was initially to the Civil War. Do you honestly think the south didn't want northerners dead, and vice versa?
I bet you are the type of guy that has a black co-worker in your office so you claim to have a black friend and that makes you a non-bigot. I can see that stretch coming from you based on your whole attitude here.
Good for you, you met a German who liked you. You even talked to him? Wow, you should get an award from Amnesty International about that one! You are like one freaking step away from being a Jain. I can see you make friends very well, look at this thread.
Go to France, don't go to France, we don't care, just leave your prejudices off this board.
Mar 27, 2003 6:34 PM
|and politics are not messed up here. Common sence says the guy that gets more votes wins. Ok so it is a different system thats more complicated than that.
How many Americans vote, sheez thats messed up. More of you should vote, and only 2 major political parties, this country needs a kick in the ass.
|Yes, Africa has loads of model governments||SimonRex|
Mar 27, 2003 6:42 PM
|how can we be so stupid. Maybe the US can politically advance to the level of the many great African nations.|
Mar 27, 2003 6:57 PM
|maybe America should start invading some African countries, there are some dictators there and some terrible regimes.....?|
|I'm sure we could do a better job than the UN has...||Matno|
Mar 27, 2003 8:49 PM
|I hold the United Nations directly responsible for many of the deaths that have taken place in African "conflicts." For example, they were not just a helpless bystander in the massive genocide in Rwanda, but rather almost solely responsible for putting power in the wrong hands, then turning a blind eye when their "mistake" was on a rampage.
There are a lot of people involved in "politics" (at least in the public perception) who were not elected. (Hence my reference to Jesse Jackson, who I hope doesn't represent a single sane American).
|you deserve to loose your deposit.............nm||african|
Mar 27, 2003 6:35 PM
Mar 27, 2003 6:38 PM
Mar 27, 2003 7:04 PM
|How about this, you tell me why you should go and then tell me why you should not go, answer your own questions.
I really should not get into this with you, I respect your opinions, and I am known for stirring up sh*t.
Anyway. This is what I think:
If you are having doubts about spending money in France stay home, lose the deposit and watch the le tour on oln.
Or go to France and have a friggen grand time and live life to its fullest because you can. Soldiers and civilians, (people) are dying. You are not, you have the right to go and have a good time, so that soldier died to give you the right to go and drink Moet and watch Lance, while you choke on crackers and cheese.
Enjoy, the tour my friend.
P.S. I am not trying to start a war here on the discussion board but anyway.
|war.........is stupid, people are stupid||african|
Mar 27, 2003 7:05 PM
Mar 27, 2003 7:06 PM
|I think everyone is "anti-war"....||WCC|
Mar 27, 2003 7:24 PM
|..im tired of the anti/pro thing...
look, War sucks, but putting up Brit Tabloib pics isnt really much of an argument.
War never solved anything but...ended Slavery, Nazism, Communism, Totalitarianism, etc...
America isnt perfect by any means, but it is the most generous nation on earth. If we went into an isolationist mode and ONLY care for our own..what would happen? The WORLD would "still be mad at america" People would hate America if we were healing the blind for free...
And please, lets not compare Bush to Hussein. Thats just madness.
|I think everyone is "anti-war"....||african|
Mar 27, 2003 7:48 PM
|I think I have so many rambling thoughts in my head it is hard to put them together.
Anyway. Me: I would go to France have a riot there and give the Frogs my $$$ and enjoy life, and post your pictures when you get back, lucky bastard. :)
|I think everyone is "anti-war"....||russw19|
Mar 28, 2003 1:07 AM
|Slavery was ended by years and years of PROTEST! Not war! Please please please don't tell me you are trying to say that the Civil war was about slavery and that Lincoln set the slaves free with the Emancipation Proclamation? That is the biggest lie in American History! First, The Civil War was about economics. It just so happened that the south's economy relied on free labor (slaves) but the Emancipation Proclamation only said that if the states in rebellion didn't come back to the Union in 200 days, then the slaves would be set free. It was a punishment move and not an altruistic one. And what if the states didn't come back into the Union? Well, nothing. They claimed autonomy and refused to recognize the Union's laws. It wasn't until the Thirteenth Amendment that slavery was abolished, but even after that, segregation was still legal. Brown vs.. Board of Education was only passed in 1954. There are people on this board who are old enough to remember legalized discrimination.
As I said in an above post in this thread.. I don't care if you go to France or not, but please stop spouting off these ridiculous asinine statements and then getting upset when people try to tell you they think you are a bit off in the head. You went so far as to get mad at someone for telling you to stay home and how he could separate the French people from the French government. You accused him of being condescending, then made some stupid remark about him having to be from France. Don't you see that it's your own stupid comments that got you in that position to begin with? No, of course you don't. You are trolling for a flame war about your politics and how France ties into them. If you don't want to spend money in France or with French people, I can't make you, but please stop with the inflammatory comments.
Mar 27, 2003 6:49 PM
|The thought of the western world being represented by someone like you almost makes me sick.|
|another selfhating American....||WCC|
Mar 27, 2003 6:57 PM
tell me, what exactlly is it about ME that would be ambarassing? Tell me about YOURSELF and why YOU are such a good representative. Why better than me?
|another selfhating American....||cycleaddict|
Mar 27, 2003 8:37 PM
|Don't go. You are an idiot and Americans such as myself are continuously embarrassed by those of your ilk.
Stay home !!
|What was that you said above, cycleaddict...||purplepaul|
Mar 27, 2003 8:51 PM
|"Why are some of us so easily tweaked when someone does not agree with us? You know, we are not always right!"
I assume you meant the royal "we".
Mar 27, 2003 7:07 PM
|There is no place in this world for someone struggling with their conscience.
WCC, I'm not sure why you've posted here as it's usually just a slug fest and anyone not PC is denounced as an abhorrence. Talk about thought Nazis.
As for your question, the French who would have made money off of you will care if you don't go. It will make a difference in their pocketbook. Amazing how hated Americans are, but they don't hate our money, do they. They don't hate us when they need our protection. Or maybe they do.
Sad thing is, France is a beautiful country and French hospitality can be the best in the world. If you can go sometime in the future, after this has all blown over, perhaps you would feel more comfortable not going this year. If not, don't beat yourself up too much. Drink lots of Coke.
Mar 27, 2003 8:20 PM
|I absolutely agree with Purplepaul. In reading this thread, I realized this board is like the US; the silent majority feel like you do. So, if you're asking for opinions from an American, my advise is don't go. I think the French will care because there revenues will be down, whether it's due to people protesting their position on the war or just scared to travel. Either way, I think they deserve it.|
Mar 28, 2003 6:23 AM
|and by the way, isnt the Daily Mirror that toilet paper of a rag printed by America hating leftist/socialists, peacenik, wussies? I think they are the ones who print the garbage in England like "Princess Di was really an alien" and "Starfish Predicts End of the World". They have an agenda and its called PROFIT.|
|re: Question for Americans going to the Tour de France||mackgoo|
Mar 28, 2003 8:02 AM
|Yeah right. They should just boycot the Tour. YOU DOPE.|
|if giving your money to the french is your problem....||rufus|
Mar 28, 2003 8:36 AM
|even now, the u.s. government is probably giving the french far more money than you could ever hope to spend there. your tax dollars, too.
if it's good enough for them, it ought to be good enough for you.
|this website has become a complete waste...||emptyhanded|
Mar 28, 2003 3:25 PM
|because every topic devolves into rants for or against the war.
I understand everyone has an opinion they want to express, but this is a cycling website dammit!
if you feel so passionately about the issue, go protest, write your congressman, write a letter to a soldier, or post on a war related website.
can we please get back to talking about such important issues as shaving our legs and campy vs. shimano?!